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[Blog] How to Fix an E-Wing.

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23 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Say... new idea: what if E-Wings lost the Torpedo slot?

That'd really allow FFG to crash the price.

Maybe a configuration that removes torpedo and switches sensor for tech? Adds/changes linked actions? Some kind of price change? Something like Starviper Mk.II, the Kirakxksyskx title, and the Cavern Angels X-Wing modification at the end of 1.0?

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2 hours ago, svelok said:

so the ship you all want is just Kylo, right?

 

22 minutes ago, svelok said:

unfortunately, i believe the "every ship should be kylo" stans are among us

Wanting to boost with a focus is wanting to be Kylo? Both types of A-Wings, T-65s, Fangs, StarVipers, Interceptors, other non-Kylo Silencers, Aethersprites, and even the frickin' Belbullabs have a boost to focus. You seem a little fixated. Here stare into the abyss, perhaps it will help:

5cab29490307c5ad0cfcbd465f09d409.jpg

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I'm not sold on "across all pilots" as a great metric, but fair point.  Interestingly, everything which has been as close to overpriced as an E-Wing has been a Turret ship.

Totally. There are definitely holes and unanswered questions when trying to figure out which ship FFG is being most cautious about, but looking at how many points the ships have dropped since launch at least starts a conversation.

Realistically these ships aren't in a vacuum. There are millions of combinations in this game when upgrades are added. We can't say that FFG is being more cautious with the E-Wing than say the Starviper simply because the E-Wing has seen a bigger change in points.

At the very least it is interesting to see what FFG thought was a fair price for certain ships at launch of 2e.

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1 hour ago, Npmartian said:

Maybe a configuration that removes torpedo and switches sensor for tech? Adds/changes linked actions? Some kind of price change? Something like Starviper Mk.II, the Kirakxksyskx title, and the Cavern Angels X-Wing modification at the end of 1.0?

I like the wonky linked actions.  It adds character.

I suppose a negative-cost Torpedo slot modification could work, but it'd seem like a half-measure to me.  The E-Wing would still need to be balanced around the Torpedo Alpha list, and that would still feel really lacklustre and unfulfilling.

The thought of deleting the Torpedo slot, once I say it out loud, is just so liberating.

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I've played E-Wings in a couple of tournaments.

The latest attempt was in Deathrain's Destruction Derby, where no pilot above I4 could be used.

I tried Porkins plus 2 Rogues. The Rogues had Crackshot, Proton Torps, R3, and FCS. Porkins had Shield Upgrade, Chopper, and Elusive.

Porkins far out-performed the E-Wings. Which was not what I expected.

The initial Torpedo attacks were good, but the E-Wings being unable to reposition without losing their Focus meant they were either horribly predictable or lacked defense dice mods, which made them far too reliant on dice rolls. They popped and died too easily for such expensive ships.

The only remedy at the moment is to be so much better than your opponent that they don't get to shoot at your ships! Tricky without either higher Initiative or a better set of linked actions. Corran would love being able to double reposition, for example, or if linking into a focus seems too common, a linked Evade would be useful for disengaging. As others have said, E-Wings are terrible at disengagement.

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4 hours ago, Gilarius said:

The initial Torpedo attacks were good, but the E-Wings being unable to reposition without losing their Focus meant they were either horribly predictable or lacked defense dice mods, which made them far too reliant on dice rolls. They popped and died too easily for such expensive ships.

The E-Wing in a nutshell.

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Posted (edited)

It would probably never happen but I could see a scenario where Corran could be pretty solid in Hyperspace format after a minor point reduction. 

As for Extended....they would have to very aggressively address Empire, Republic, and Scum Ace options for something like Corran to be a logical choice even if his point cost dropped significantly. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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17 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

It would probably never happen but I could see a scenario where Corran could be pretty solid in Hyperspace format after a minor point reduction. 

As for Extended....they would have to very aggressively address Empire, Republic, and Scum Ace options for something like Corran to be a logical choice even if his point cost dropped significantly. 

There's an argument for Corran being one of the best aces in Rebels, at least in a 2-ship setting.  @RoockieBoy and a few others did fairly well with him as the partner to a Fat Han.  He's got a lot of spike damage potential, he's got the speed/defenses to either flank or nope-out, and there's a really natural synergy between his pilot ability and using an R2 unit to regen.

For alternatives, Jake offers cheapness and more mobility, but is squishier and less punchy.  Wedge is punchier, but he's kinda doomed to die and not that mobile.  Luke is consistent, but just keeps hovering in the middle, a lot like Poe.  Like, Luke can't really highroll, but Corran can.  Highrolling isn't necessarily a long-run winning strategy, but an inability to highroll can easily be a losing strategy.

Not that high-init reposition two-ship lists with regen is what we need to be encouraging in X-Wing...

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

There's an argument for Corran being one of the best aces in Rebels, at least in a 2-ship setting.

Back when super han existed yea, corran was a beast. So many of these high init jousters like Vader, Whisper, Soontir, GI, Ani, Obi, Plo, Boba, Kylo, Corran, Guri, Blackout, Poe, Fenn, Vonreg, and Holo are about what you put next to them allowing them to trade just enough at high init to set up a trivial mid/end game that’s essentially 2 ship aces just later. All of a sudden corran looks pretty ok when he is there to enable rather than carry. 

60-80 points is an awkward range for extended where 12 or so cards can carry at that price point or less.

This is not just an E-Wing problem.

Edited by Boom Owl

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7 minutes ago, clockworkspider said:

From a strictly thematic perspective, wasn't the E-Wing supposed to be an X-Wing replacement as something of a multi-role fighter?

From that perspective, removing the torpedo slot wouldn't really be appropriate.

It was canonically (legendsically?) a proton torpedo carrier, so yeah, dropping the torpedo would be off lorewise.

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Posted (edited)

The E-wing's strength is that it can flexibly fight as a jouster before becoming a more squirrelly ship. It doesn't do either of these things well for its cost, but it can do both of those things reasonably well, which is rare.

It fits well into kitchen sink lists, but those lists are bad. Likewise its unlikely a list will exist where you want to joust vs some parts of it but then have the E-wing run off and hunt something that is poorly maneuverable. The idea that maybe aces should be assumed to be in a mixed list and 'pure aces' lists should make more sacrifices if they really want to get initiative on the entire enemy is an interesting one (it solves multiple problems, including the bidding war issue, if you could generally out-initiative half of your enemy list with an i5 if 'duo aces+duo support was default, rather than getting no benefit in an 3 aces vs 3 aces matchup where everything is I5 or more, for example), if way beyond the scope of the E-wing. The more inititiave varies among not just played ships, but within an individual list, the more value things like the Rogue Squadron Escort's I4 becomes, as well as aces that can't run in an ace squad like Corran.

A sensor that lets the E-wing add some new value to a list may also help, especially if it gives new functionality to target locks the ships were often re-appropriated into being command ships so 'support E-wing' that tries to target lock allies instead of enemies isn't too out there and increases the value of the linked action. One issue with the E-wing is that long distance locks are good for an opening salvo, but unlike other volley fire torp lists like say... Colonel Jendon, your paying a pretty hefty tax of 11 points per-ship to get a guarenteed turn 1 lock, rather than Jendon who was a 5 point tax if you already wanted a chunky large crew carrier. Suddenly being able to link into red-target locks that... I dunno... can be used as calculates by allies or something due to your 'Command Sensors' or whatever adds value to the dial as well, when torp carriers traditionally don't care about their dial that much as long as they can take it slow.

Getting the option to run torps OR missiles would be a pretty interesting buff without reducing points. Torps tend to synergize with taking it slow and playing at range (besides the APT, which is low key sorta a goofy weapon), while the E-wing is paying out a LOT of points for 3 red dice, a hard 1 turn, and 6 health with 3 defense, which means it really wants to get into the thick of it rather than snipe. Missiles give a cheaper option to synergize with your target locks while still providing value: You can double mod Prockets for a really scary reward for lining up Corran, utilize a multi-target lock with Clusters and an R-3, get a stronger range 3 attack with Homing (which also lets you save your TL for when you boost directly in close and can't get it again) or Concussion (which gives you some AOE control), or Magpulse (Which would be very interesting on Corran and to a lesser extent Gavin!). E-wings live or die by torps to some extent right now and depend on them being undercosted, but being able to run a cheap value lock-on weapon without pushing Corran into the 80+ points range. If you want to run a Proton torpeedo to try to pick on Vader you can, but being able to say "Actually I want to try to use Ion missiles just to set up an easy shot on a future turn for Corran" would give a lot of interesting options to the ship.

Edited by dezzmont

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With exception of I6-Force-Corran guy, most of us are not asking for a Kylo.  The idea of trying to make the E-Wing compete with the X-Wing as an efficiency jouster (AKA keep tuning the points down) is incredibly unappealing in a faction that is already defined by efficiency jousters.

I would like to see the E-Wing be priced and perform similarly (AKA a sensor or droid upgrade that gives access a calculate after a reposition) to the other super-fighters in the game.  It would give the faction something new and interesting instead of just another torpedo jouster.

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Posted (edited)

Loved (and love) the E-Wing in 1.0 Epic games. Really like Corran in 1.0 3/100 too... but I cannot see any of them yet making a mark for 2.0. They have the same kinda issue the Defender has, they are so potentially problematic, the devs are justifiably terrified of lowering the price to where they are easily loved/hated. Ether squad might just smash the game.

...now where's my pint?

Edited by clanofwolves

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A Knave is more expensive than a Sienar Jaemus Engineer.  That just makes no dang sense.  I don't really see anything too interesting opening up with that cost reduction.

Anyhow, Triple Torpedo Rogues is a list now, with 1 Plasma, 2 Proton, three R3 astros (don't go full Torp Es without double locks!), and 3 points to spare. (Marksmanship? FCS on the Plasma?)  Going 2 Plasma, 1 Proton gets everyone FCS.  Init 4 is where ships tend to have a reasonable chance to attack first, nuke something off the board.

Gavin, although buffed, was buffed less than a Rogue, and he looks almost even worse.

Corran down is nice, but he's still more expensive than Luke.

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7 minutes ago, Redblock said:

Try Gavin with autoblaster Bwings...It pays its cost after 1 unstopable critical to Fenn or Soontir

I had tried that as soon as Autoblaster Cannon came out, and found it very lackluster. Outflanking with B-Wings  to trigger the Autoblaster's unblockable crits just isn't super great. It feels like a great idea, but once those B-wings get stressed, your opponent is going to out flank you.

I've had better luck with just taking 3 X-Wings with Gavin all with Crack Shot. I cancel more defense dice in one game than I got uncancelable Crits with the Auto-B's.

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Posted (edited)

Ultimately Gavin is in the wrong ship for his ability. It is pretty consistently the case that turning a hit to a crit is a pretty weak mod unless it comes with a lot of side benefits, so I doubt he will be very useful.

The further hit to the prices of E-wings I think does a lot however for them as a 'one off,' where you already committed to losing a ship in order to upgrade your stuff, which is where I found the most success with them. I think its fine for rebel ships to not really be 'spammed.' Fits their aesthetics more.

Edited by dezzmont

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15 hours ago, dezzmont said:

Ultimately Gavin is in the wrong ship for his ability. It is pretty consistently the case that turning a hit to a crit is a pretty weak mod unless it comes with a lot of side benefits, so I doubt he will be very useful.

Gavin's ability is fine on anything with a forward firing arc, so isn't necessarily in the wrong ship. The only ship with a synergy with his ability is a Autoblaster B-Wing. I believe that turning a hit to a crit is stronger than you believe, especially when you have multiple ship a turn adding that crit in.

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