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[Blog] How to Fix an E-Wing.

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I like the last proposal, with the R7 that swaps the slots and gives the boost linked calculate. I agree with the article that it could mess up future tweaking, but it also very much feels like it imposes built-in limitations on the power it’s otherwise granting. Maybe couple that with a named R7 that grants a red linked focus instead and is charge-based?

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1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

I'd be happy with a new sculpt. Alien Luxury Miniatures has 3 different sculpts available: 710x528_15663574_9220045_1562006786.jpg

They are mk.II to mk.IV. ffg produce the mk.I so you can field e-wing in all his 30 years long career. 4 version in all those years comparing with the dozen xwing get state that in competent hands it is quite a capable starfighter... 

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The E-wing is a toolbox fighter that can adjust to almost any circumstance. It sacrifices overall action efficiency in favor of terrific flexibility. This seems reasonable to me. It's an extreme generalist superiority fighter.

I'm hesitant to "fix" the e-wing with anything other than points reductions, especially considering the myriad support abilities prevalent within the faction.

(Edit: I didn't mean to gloss over your fix ideas, which are interesting and thoughtful! I just wanted to express that I like the way the E-wing is built--including the wonky linked action--and that I think they shouldn't really be efficiency options; my opinion is that Knaves should be inefficient as generics go, and Rogues/Gavin/Corran should come down a bit to be realistic but not auto-include options)

Edited by Maui.

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  • Mostly, I think they just could stand to be a little cheaper.  While they're technically double-action ships, realistically they're only single-action ships priced like double-action ones.  With the Range 1 restriction on the Locks meaning that relocking each turn isn't likely, for most of a game once you're fighting things out, you're probably only on one action, and these are just slightly more evade-y X-Wings.
    • How much cheaper?  An E-Wing is between an ARC and a U-Wing in toughness, and those are about 3 points more expensive than X-Wings.  Add a point for better mobility.  44 points before pricing the value of long range locks... so at least 45 for a Knave.  I think I'd be comfortable with that.
      • 45 Knave - see above.  Doesn't impact torpedo builds much, but regular ones can have FCS and R3/4 in a four-per-list.  It's probably fine.  It'd be kind of comparable to Heroic/Optics Red Expert T-70s.
        • Combined with the Tech switch, you could have 4 with Pattern Analyzer.  Again, seems roughly fair in comparison to T-70s.
      • 49 Rogue - I'm fine with a bit more premium cost on the talent generics, since it's Init 4 and with the double-mods approach, these start to have actual alpha strike capacities, to maybe kill stuff before it attacks.
        • I would be all over flying three of these with Crack Shot, R3, and Proton Torpedoes.  List comes out to 198.
      • 52 Gavin - Always on ability, but not super strong.  +3 over the same Init generic seems fine.
        • Would it be worth it to swap one Proton to Plasmas to bring Gavin?
      • 62 Corran - that's minus 4 over status quo, the same reduction as a Rogue, and puts him exactly equal in price to Luke.  No passive force, but a free long-range lock, and 3 greens is also some bonus passive defenses.  Feels right.
  • I'm not even mad at FFG for making them too expensive: the threat of triple Torpedo Alpha Strikes was scary enough, so the devs did well to price them for that fear.  Still, it's good to dial down the costs as time has passed.
    • Has there been any ship as cautiously priced as E-Wings at Launch?
  • As to R7, I like that the design went with linked Calc rather than linked Focus or Evade.  With 3 greens, 3 reds, and typically a lock, you'll probably want more than a single focus-turn, so Calc seems like a nice way to split the difference.
    • But... I almost just want to see them a bit cheaper with their current structure, more than layering on new tricks.  I'm OK with all the E-Wings quirks: they just cost too much.
  • Tech I'm a big fan of.  I think it'd just be more fun.  FCS is boring.  Elusive/Pattern Analyzer/(R4 or R3) Rouges would be incredibly enjoyable ships to fly.  They'd still probably want a price cut, but it'd be cooler to have Tech than System.
    • Targeting Synchronizer is still probably less-good than Jendon, at a higher price.  No worries, all happy.  We probably don't want it to be too good.

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I'll add: I don't know that I like using the droid for the Sensor/Tech swap.  It means that E-Wings will need to be balanced around both upgrades, rather than just one set of them.  There's a risk to that.

The Crew-to-Droid options are a lot simpler, since Droids mostly aren't that good.  Tech and Sensor both add a lot of potential utility, and seems a little bit trickier.

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3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I'll add: I don't know that I like using the droid for the Sensor/Tech swap.  It means that E-Wings will need to be balanced around both upgrades, rather than just one set of them.  There's a risk to that.

The Crew-to-Droid options are a lot simpler, since Droids mostly aren't that good.  Tech and Sensor both add a lot of potential utility, and seems a little bit trickier.

Yeah, just adding the boost link red calculate is pretty good. If you decouple the slots change it’s probably easier to balance.

Scary question: what about making the requirement on this hypothetical R7 just a native white boost? Or white boost plus tech? I.E., not E-Wing exclusive. Does this put the T-70 through the roof?

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5 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I love the E-wing, so I enjoyed that.  One very minor thing: it's "jibe with," not "jive with."

First recorded use of jive with the same meaning was only about 10 years after the first recorded use of jibe with that meaning, and jibe was more commonly used as replacement for gibe before the 30s. Nice short article about it (though they admit they don't include it in their dictionaries currently but likely will eventually if the usage continues) https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/jive-jibe-gibe I love the way language changes over time.

I was thinking about the stuff about how upgrades that remove a slot would require that slot to be there and I'm not actually sure that's true. Is removing a slot considered a specific cost that's being paid? I feel like if the slot is no longer on the chassis, then the text would simply be ignored (I expect it would be added to the FAQ one way or another once such a scenario exists). EG, Havoc doesn't actually take up the crew slot, it only takes up the title slot. So the crew doesn't seem like it's actually required for the title to technically function. I still don't expect FFG to do anything of this nature unless there's a very unbeatable scenario with an upgrade like Havoc somewhere down the road but I think it's an easy FAQ fix and no worry.

That said, I don't expect an upgrade fix for the e-wing. They might do a config but I don't think they'd view it as a fix, exactly. A cost reduction is in order. I think it actually mentioned why the E-Wing is cheaper and should be even cheaper in the blog - poor linked actions that don't work well with the ship ability (it is nice to get locks if you spend your original but unlikely to occur with FCS). Compare that to the TIE Silencer's autothrusters (effectively a choice of 6 linked actions, plus links off of actions not on the card. If they had a free config that gave even one better linked action, that would be significant and maybe justify its current price.

System to tech here would be fine but I don't think that alone would fix it.

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38 minutes ago, svelok said:

still pretty sure the e-wing just needs a base price adjustment - corran hasn't changed price in a year and a half at this point, its not like all in-app options have been exhausted

Well price adjustments have been happening, to the base models and they haven't gained traction. Singling out Corran's price doesn't really help the entire chassis. He does need a drop, maybe just a two point to start.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Would it be worth it to swap one Proton to Plasmas to bring Gavin?

Absolutely. Ensure shields are stripped with Gav, then ensure at least 2 crit on each Proton Torpedo. Ouchies.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

As to R7, I like that the design went with linked Calc rather than linked Focus or Evade.  With 3 greens, 3 reds, and typically a lock, you'll probably want more than a single focus-turn, so Calc seems like a nice way to split the difference.

I'll add: I don't know that I like using the droid for the Sensor/Tech swap.  It means that E-Wings will need to be balanced around both upgrades, rather than just one set of them.  There's a risk to that.

 

53 minutes ago, CoffeeMinion said:

Yeah, just adding the boost link red calculate is pretty good. If you decouple the slots change it’s probably easier to balance.

Calc seems much more easy to balance, so perhaps that is the avenue to go. Decoupling it from the tech switch isn't a bad call.

52 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

One very minor thing: it's "jibe with," not "jive with."

Interesting. As @CaptainJaguarShark pointed out, jive has been used in the manner I used it for 90 years. I wonder how long a word must be used in a fashion for it to become an actual definition. "Literally" has been recently appropriated to mean figuratively despite being it's opposite which I dislike, but has been done for far much less time, and has been accepted by dictionaries as an additional definition. I any case, I appreciate the internet rabbit trail you just sent me down.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Tech I'm a big fan of.  I think it'd just be more fun.  FCS is boring.  Elusive/Pattern Analyzer/(R4 or R3) Rouges would be incredibly enjoyable ships to fly.  They'd still probably want a price cut, but it'd be cooler to have Tech than System.

  • Targeting Synchronizer is still probably less-good than Jendon, at a higher price.  No worries, all happy.  We probably don't want it to be too good.

T-Sync is definitely less good than Jendon, which is fine, because an E-Wing could do it indefinitely. I still question the price of T-Sync, as it has a minimum extra cost of 4 points for an Ion Missile. But it at least has more flavor than any of the Sensor options. FCS is rather dull. But the tech options available look fun.

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2 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

Interesting. As @CaptainJaguarShark pointed out, jive has been used in the manner I used it for 90 years. I wonder how long a word must be used in a fashion for it to become an actual definition. "Literally" has been recently appropriated to mean figuratively despite being it's opposite which I dislike, but has been done for far much less time, and has been accepted by dictionaries as an additional definition. I any case, I appreciate the internet rabbit trail you just sent me down.

Literally has been used to mean something figuratively for even longer than that, since at least the late 17th century. It had only been a word for a couple of hundred years before that. That might fit some people's definitions of "recent," but that would literally be a relative distinction.

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You can field a cavern angels zealot with stealth device for 45 points. A knave squadron pilot has better offense, defense, dial, action bar, and ship ability with a bonus initiative point.

Knaves at 48 would probably be all right. I'd prefer they stay at 50 (as part of my view that they should be intentionally inefficient) and you bring Rogues down to 52, Gavin to 56, Corran to 63, and you see if that makes any difference in how viable these pilots are perceived.

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2 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

"Literally" has been recently appropriated to mean figuratively despite being it's opposite which I dislike

IMHO, the most absurd uses of literally are the funniest, and thus best.

It's like how I can't decide whether good puns or bad puns are better, then I remember there are no bad puns.

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6 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Thought this would be an article about removing the laser from above the cockpit and mounting under the fuselage instead.

Was disappointed.

Here you go:

UeLhCXzm.jpg

But I still find it totally hilarious that people froth at their mouthes over the E-wing 's upper cannon placement, while loving this ship and its placement of the upper cannons!!

imperial-alpha-class-star-wing-600px.gif

 

Anyways, back to the E-wing. 

Precisely as you wrote, the E-wing feels like a very expensive 1 action ship. Which struggles, looking at all the force users, passive mod ships, 5million actions Rz2 etc. 

Gavin would love Target Synchroniser! Casually people have had succcess with Gavin and a bunch of Missile or Vanilla Z95s. He would be much stronger, and thematic (as you wrote).

Regarding decreasing points (suggested above), FFG is a bit vary of making E-wings too cheap, probably rightly so, because being too cheap facilitates massive alpha strikes, which are pretty unfun and not good for the game. 

Similarly one has to be a bit careful with boost link to calc/focus. On the other hand  Silencer Boost link Focus followed blue hard next turn is pretty bonkers as well. And the solution of putting the Boost-Link-Calc onto a Ewing R7 astromech has the nice effect of blocking R4 usage, thus making it more difficult to get rid of the stress. So the combo does not have to be astronomically priced, as it is weaker than the Silencer. Oh, and the R7 solution also nicely blocks regen :)

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12 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

But I still find it totally hilarious that people froth at their mouthes over the E-wing 's upper cannon placement, while loving this ship and its placement of the upper cannons!!

imperial-alpha-class-star-wing-600px.gif

 

(Looks at E-Wing's fixed upper mount) (looks at Starwing's split ball mount) Hrmmm. I wonder why... Maybe because the cannons above the Starwing's cockpit can swivel up and out of the way... Naah, can't be that... 😐

Edited by Hiemfire

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12 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

(Looks at E-Wing's fixed upper mount) (looks at Starwing's split ball mount) Hrmmm. I wonder why... Maybe because the cannons above the Starwing's cockpit can swivel up and out of the way... Naah, can't be that... 😐

The E-Wing upper cannon tilts up with the canopy. Seen here:

340?cb=20150730042132

In any case, I think either would be a poor location choice as the bright flash from the laser bolt would ruin your vision for a little bit, and a little bit would likely be all it takes to die in a dogfight.

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5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:
    • Has there been any ship as cautiously priced as E-Wings at Launch?

Actually yes. While the chassis has come down 36 points total since launch across all 4 pilots, which is a lot, other chassis have come down more or similar/same:

YT-2400 is down 37 across 3 pilots

Rebel YT-1300 has come down 49 points (4 pilots)

Decimator is down 35 points (3 pilots)

JM5K is down 49 points (4 pilots)

Lancer 32 points (4 pilots)

The lowly Starfortress is down 61 (6 pilots)

Resistance YT-1300 is down 38 (4 pilots)

Interestingly, all the above are large base ships. It seems that the devs were worried about the power of certain large base ships in 2e. 

So while the E-Wing chassis is not the most cautiously priced chassis since launch, it is the small base ship with the highest points decrease so far.

For reference, the Defender chassis has come down 20 so far across 5 pilots. I'm sure the four higher I pilots will see another point or two shaved off.

Edited by Skitch_

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I really wish the E-Wing hadn't been turned into an over-priced torpedo delivery platform in 2.0, but at the same time, it's a pretty obscure old EU ship that probably isn't getting a reprint anytime soon, so it's not like I want it to be particularly good either. Changing the linked Lock on BR/Boost to linked Focus is the obvious fix, but ideally that would be paired with a hit to the ship ability, or else they start to look like a 1.0 ship.

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1 hour ago, Skitch_ said:

Actually yes. While the chassis has come down 36 points total since launch across all 4 pilots, which is a lot, other chassis have come down more or similar/same.

I'm not sold on "across all pilots" as a great metric, but fair point.  Interestingly, everything which has been as close to overpriced as an E-Wing has been a Turret ship.

2 hours ago, svelok said:

so the ship you all want is just Kylo, right?

The more I think about it, the ship I want is the E-Wing as it exists now.  I just want it to be cheaper. :P

1 hour ago, Transmogrifier said:

Changing the linked Lock on BR/Boost to linked Focus is the obvious fix, but ideally that would be paired with a hit to the ship ability, or else they start to look like a 1.0 ship.

It also starts to look like every other ship.  The E-Wing quirks are kind of interesting.

 

Say... new idea: what if E-Wings lost the Torpedo slot?

That'd really allow FFG to crash the price.

It basically is a lot like Guri.  E-Wings are prohibitively expensive, to prevent a kinda BS tactic, same as AdvS Guri is kinda BS.  It's just a really different toxic and annoying tactic.

Like, at the same cost, what's better: an Init 2 E-Wing without torpedoes, or an Init 2 Starviper?  SV has mobility with those sweet Rolls and linked Focus, E-Wing starts the game with a single Lock and better health.  I'm not sure, but it feels kinda close.

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2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

The more I think about it, the ship I want is the E-Wing as it exists now.  I just want it to be cheaper.

same team

unfortunately, i believe the "every ship should be kylo" stans are among us

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