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Boom Owl

How many Generic X-Wings could each pilot defeat?

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On 7/7/2020 at 2:30 PM, Boom Owl said:

This is more about recognizing there is potentially a built in points discount for aces by design

Just a thought on this.  I'm wondering whether the 'points discount' depends a lot on the skill of the players.  So, for instance, if you were to set up two relatively new players with lists and give one of them Aces, and the other something that's good at jousting, my guess is that the jousting list will win most of the time.  I have no data to back that up - just the assertion that new players will typically joust (or possibly something worse), and some of the finer skills take some time to learn.  Knowing how to bait, to set up good engagements, when to disengage - all that stuff takes time and application to learn.

If this is right, then you could argue that there's a points discount for aces when considering top tier players.  But not necessarily for mid-tier players, and not at all for newbies as the advantages of ace play are harder to exploit.  This is explicitly not to say that there's no skill involved in playing generics - there absolutely is - just that the floor for a good jousting list is probably higher than the floor of a good aces list.

  

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I guess part of my confusion on this is that I took this more as "how many can this pilot consistently solo" where others maybe took it as "best case scenario, how many this pilot solo" and those are slightly different questions. I was eventually able to solo 3 RSVs in with Boba Fett in FC after about 7 games with various loadouts (winning one was 000, fearless, slave 1, and slave 1  really wasn't that important, might be better to drop it for something else when playing it in FC). Of course, translating that to games with actual other people where you can't force some of the opponent's decisions (for example: FC pilots will always take stress from 000 if they aren't stressed, and will always let you get the calculate if they are stressed, unlike real players who might make decisions based on more than just that specific pilot's state  for one condition). 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CaptainJaguarShark said:

how many can this pilot consistently solo

That was the question yea. 

Its useful and interesting to think about X-Wing like this and then add in the full complexity piece by piece. 

No one is denying that real in game scenarios have all kinds of nuances, but no complicated topic can be discussed productively all at once. So instead its fun to talk about how well an Ace vs x# of Ships can be handled. Introduce a wingman for Boba like Fenn Rau and you start to see how naturally target priority and end game scenario preferences defines itself. 

Like your example, Boba Fenn vs 4T70 Rose is played with the knowledge and expectation that Boba or Fenn can handle a specific end state themselves. That then informs how you optimize a targeted trade for Fenn’s 70ish points. End up asking your self questions like should one of my two ships trade for at least 3 ships? Is that my goal? If that happens and Bobas is still on full how difficult/easy will the end game be? Are there things I can do to make that end scenario easier? How close to 75 min will that moment be? Can I get half on one more ship near the end of the game? Is 2.5 of their ships enough of a trade for all of Fenn? 

Knowing about how many ships one of your Aces can reliably solo, informs how you play the game.

From a strategy point of view I am only interested in this because of how it effects matchups and in game decisions. It helps in list building but also in game tactics. If Boba can solo 4 Tie FOs great good for him. I only care because that informs how or what I play against him or with him. Much more interested in the how provided it actually matters.

From a point balancing point of view its just interesting to think about and one of several valid way of assessing i5 or i6 ace power levels, nothing more. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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1 hour ago, CaptainJaguarShark said:

I guess part of my confusion on this is that I took this more as "how many can this pilot consistently solo"

That is how I understood this. Of course Boba could potentially solo 5X if the stars aligned, but on average, it probably closer to 2-3.

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Posted (edited)

The sad thing is that this is even framed from the aces perspective. Apparently even I am biased in favor of aces as the protagonists. 

No one ever really talks about how many or how much of Aces x# of generics can reliably handle, which is a very different mindset or perspective even if its the same question. 

I have written up boba counter strategy from a non-ace perspective before which was fun but still the entire game of x-wing seems to warp around a core prioritization of i5/i6 matchup strategy paired with after thought swarm mitigation strategy. Kinda makes sense when you look at how 75% of the field is aces and 25% is swarm/generic even when the best list in the game might be a swarm and one archetype primarily requires narrowly specific tech to beat while the other has a broader set of tech related solutions. Which is how metas work right? Its about whats optimal based on what people actually play, not whats actually optimal. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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Disappointed that Whisper isn't on here so that everyone could vote n (where n = the number of opposing generic X-Wings on the board).

Also, whoever thinks a Rebel Han Falcon with 10 pts of upgrades could beat 4+ generic X-Wings is still suffering from some severe bias and PTSD from 1.0 Fat Turrets.  I'm pretty sure in second the YT-1300 can't beat 3 X-Wings, even if you catered your 10pts of upgrades to the match-up.  All the data suggests bow-tie large ships are terrible in 2.0 (at least after the two rounds of nerfs to shut down Roarke-Dash and Handbrake Han), and beef-swarm is arguably their worst possible match-up.  Two generic X-Wings already have more effective HP than Han and can hit twice as hard as he can every round.

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4 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Disappointed that Whisper isn't on here so that everyone could vote n (where n = the number of opposing generic X-Wings on the board).

They seem to be hyperspace only pilots.

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16 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

They seem to be hyperspace only pilots.


Indeed.

A shame, though, since the TIE Phantom is one of those special ships where, since it's debut, it's been problematic.  And despite all the rules-changes to cloaking, reduction in stats, removal of slots, or nerfs to points directed at them, it's remained at the top of the competitive options across both editions.

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