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Kurancik

C1-10P and Fine-Tuned Controls

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Hello,

May I use Fine-Tuned Controls to reposition and then measure range 1 for C1-10P astromech ability?

With colleagues we have different opinions about that. One of it is that when both abilities are added to queue even if I will make a boost or barrel roll I have to measure C1-10P ability form position where I was when it was added to ability queue.

 

Regards,

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Posted (edited)

Rules as written, you do not measure for C1-10P (Erratic)'s ability until you are resolving it.  Both C1-10P and Fine-Tuned Controls are added to the queue at the same time and may be resolved in either order.

Look here for the rules on ability requirements: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/277390-x-wing-official-rulings/?do=findComment&comment=3803449

Quote

A requirement for an ability is a conditional if-statement, such as "if you are tractored" or "if the defender is in your bullseye arc." A ship being in-arc at range for an attack made as part of a triggered ability, such as Snap Shot or Foresight, is also a requirement for that ability.

...

If an ability instructs you to make a choice, such as choosing a ship, that is not itself a requirement to initiate an ability.

The other element to an ability requirement that is not mentioned in that post is found here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/277390-x-wing-official-rulings/?do=findComment&comment=3803472

but that is not relevant to this ability since it does not have a cost.

Quote

An ability cannot be added to the queue if its cost could not be paid at the time it is added.

Card Image added for reference:

6150404202e627187f39b6092cdf702c.png

Edited by joeshmoe554

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Because you control both abilities and both abilities share the same timing trigger, you choose the order in which the abilities are placed into the queue (and therefore the order in which they resolve). Once queued, each ability fully resolves before the next ability can be resolved, so if you queue Fine-Tuned Controls first, you would indeed reposition before you would measure for C1-10P.

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Not disputing any of the above, I'm in complete agreement.

For historical purposes, though, I do have one nagging thought in the back of my mind that makes me wonder, "wasn't this not always the case?"  I'm recalling (or mis-remembering?) an older version of the rules, that compulsory effects (those that either lack the word "may" or include the word "must") happen before voluntary effects (those that include the word "may").  Wasn't there some wording to similar effect in place, before the current "Action Queue" system?

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3 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Not disputing any of the above, I'm in complete agreement.

For historical purposes, though, I do have one nagging thought in the back of my mind that makes me wonder, "wasn't this not always the case?"  I'm recalling (or mis-remembering?) an older version of the rules, that compulsory effects (those that either lack the word "may" or include the word "must") happen before voluntary effects (those that include the word "may").  Wasn't there some wording to similar effect in place, before the current "Action Queue" system?

If I had to guess, the context among @Rekkoff 's colleagues is probably the "you have to meet the requirements of an ability to add it to the queue" restrictions.

To that end, choosing a ship isn't a requirement, per the example of crew-Vader.

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16 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Wasn't there some wording to similar effect in place, before the current "Action Queue" system?

I think you're thinking of the extensive argument/discussion over the difference between "game effects" vs "player abilities" as referenced in the Ability Queue section of the rules where it says game effects always queue first. Prior to the existing clarification the community had a clear consensus that the Rules Reference contains all the "game effects" while things that you opt into were definitely "player abilities" BUT there was also agreement that mandatory detrimental effects from cards don't exactly feel like a "player ability" so there was discussion that it could possibly count as a "game effect"

Fortunately FFG did give us a clear ruling that all text on cards count as "player abilities" :)

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Posted (edited)

About the other side of C1-10P, can aethersprite Anakin queue the droids evade action opportunity prior to his pilot ability, given that he doesn’t already have stress, the maneuver was a basic one, and it fully executed? The ultimate result being that all before the perform action step, Anakin has fully executed, queued C1 then pilot ability, resolves: taking red evade, gaining stress, then removing it through the pilot ability. Then he would be able to proceed with fine-tuned controls (given he still has force) and/or perform action step. So, is that all possible?

image.jpeg.7d8701e96cf7bb1e1ee7f738ba435e5e.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.c83ba480eeae0cc5bdb49f6885cf4013.jpeg

Edited by Synel

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24 minutes ago, Synel said:

The ultimate result being that all before the perform action step, Anakin has fully executed, queued C1 then pilot ability, resolves: taking red evade, gaining stress, then removing it through the pilot ability. Then he would be able to proceed with fine-tuned controls (given he still has force) and/or perform action step. So, is that all possible?

That does seem to work out. The all have the timing window of "execute a maneuver". You could even fully execute a maneuver, spend a force charge to use Fine-Tuned Controls to boost or barrel roll to gets an enemy into range 1 or bullseye, use C1-10P to red evade, then spend a force charge with Anakin's ability to remove the stress, the do your perform action step.

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30 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

... You could even fully execute a maneuver, spend a force charge to use Fine-Tuned Controls to boost or barrel roll to gets an enemy into range 1 or bullseye, ...

Although you can add C1's red Evade and Anakin's stress removal to the queue in that order at the same time, you must have an enemy in arc/range at the end of the maneuver to do so. You cannot use FTC to get arc/range first since that is also added to the queue at the same timing. As per RR1.1.0 p3 under Ability Queue:

"•  If an ability’s requirements are not met, it cannot be added to the ability queue..."

Basically, you have to declare the order for everything that has the same timing before actually doing any of it and you have to meet all the requirements while assembling that order.

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16 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

and you have to meet all the requirements while assembling that order.

That’s a very clear way of putting it. 

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3 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

Basically, you have to declare the order for everything that has the same timing before actually doing any of it and you have to meet all the requirements while assembling that order.

I was asking this question myself as i was going though this thread. I was pretty sure you have to put into (ie an declare) all of the abilities you are putting into the queue at the time they trigger. I'm also not sure if the question of "if an ability is put into the queue, does it have to be resolved, or can you 'cancel' it", ever got answered (or if its in the rule, i cant recall where).

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4 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

Although you can add C1's red Evade and Anakin's stress removal to the queue in that order at the same time, you must have an enemy in arc/range at the end of the maneuver to do so. You cannot use FTC to get arc/range first since that is also added to the queue at the same timing. As per RR1.1.0 p3 under Ability Queue:

"•  If an ability’s requirements are not met, it cannot be added to the ability queue..."

Basically, you have to declare the order for everything that has the same timing before actually doing any of it and you have to meet all the requirements while assembling that order.

An earnest question: can you explain to me why the Ketsu and Old T combo work, then? I've had explained to me several times, but my brain doesn't quite wrap around it. Hopefully, my fellow rules questions compadres can help me out. I'm certain you know what I'm talking about, but for clarity:

Ketsu Onyo takes an enemy ship at range 0-1 in her arc and tractors it into facing off Old Teroch at range 1 when it had not been before. Old T can then trigger to remove green tokens, despite the enemy ship not being arc originally when the queue "at the start of engagement phase" had started. I have been told this works despite "If an ability’s requirements are not met, it cannot be added to the ability queue..."

Why is this?

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Ketsu Onyo takes an enemy ship at range 0-1 in her arc and tractors it into facing off Old Teroch at range 1 when it had not been before. Old T can then trigger to remove green tokens, despite the enemy ship not being arc originally when the queue "at the start of engagement phase" had started. I have been told this works despite "If an ability’s requirements are not met, it cannot be added to the ability queue..."

Why is this?

Old Teroch does not have a requirement for his ability.  A requirement, in this context, is defined in the RR on page 31:

Quote

"A requirement for an ability is a conditional if-statement, such as "if you are tractored" or "if the defender is in your bullseye arc." A ship being in arc at range for an attack made as part of a triggered ability, such as Snap Shot or Foresight, is also a requirement for that ability"

Old Teroch's ability is not an attack, nor does it have a conditional if-statement.  So a ship does not need to be at range 1 until the moment Teroch's ability needs to resolve, i.e. when it reaches the front of the ability queue.

Edit: That same FAQ further clarifies Old Teroch: "If an ability instructs you to make a choice, such as choosing a ship, that is not itself a requirement to initiate an ability."

Edited by Something Wicked

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

An earnest question: can you explain to me why the Ketsu and Old T combo work, then?

@Something Wickedbeat me to the punch on the explanation pretty much as I would have written it with RR sources included. I have nothing to add except a little history on the subject.

It's worth noting that the 'check requirements when adding to the queue' line is a somewhat recent addition to the RR (two versions ago) and easy to miss if you weren't competitively running an affected combo at the time. Prior to the Official Ruling which that rule is based on it was common practice to not check your requirements until it was time to resolve the ability so you could FTC into Ani. When the current requirements rule was introduced it was largely seen as a response by FFG to nerf specifically Ani and the then-new Geonosian fighters.

Edited by nitrobenz
proofread

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3 hours ago, Lyianx said:

...I'm also not sure if the question of "if an ability is put into the queue, does it have to be resolved, or can you 'cancel' it", ever got answered (or if its in the rule, i cant recall where).

Not to my knowledge so far.

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1 minute ago, nitrobenz said:

Prior to the Official Ruling which that rule is based on it was common practice to not check your requirements until it was time to resolve the ability so you could FTC into Ani. When the current requirements rule was introduced it was largely seen as a response by FFG to nerf specifically Ani and the then-new Geonosian fighters.

I knew it popped up largely because of Nantex, but no one could properly explain to me why being in Teroch's front arc wasn't a requirement. I get it now.

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That's what bugs me about the requirements rule.  Some things like Old T aren't technically requirements, so they work, while stuff like Anakin are, and don't.  I'd rather have had something which would more cleanly reduce down to "You can't add it to the queue if you can't do the whole thing right now."

I like that the change to the rules cleaned out intervening steps.  Can't do A to set up B to do C.  My only problem is that it didn't go far enough.  That's not a rules interpretation, it's a preference.

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I'd rather have had something which would more cleanly reduce down to "You can't add it to the queue if you can't do the whole thing right now."

Deifnitely. One clean rule, instead of a rule that has things that fall through the cracks. Explaining that Old T has no range or arc "requirement" only because it isn't an attack and doesn't have "if" is odd. It's a requirement in the non-X-Wing sense of the word but not a requirement in X-Wing rules.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/2/2020 at 7:50 AM, theBitterFig said:

That's what bugs me about the requirements rule.  Some things like Old T aren't technically requirements, so they work, while stuff like Anakin are, and don't.  I'd rather have had something which would more cleanly reduce down to "You can't add it to the queue if you can't do the whole thing right now."

I like that the change to the rules cleaned out intervening steps.  Can't do A to set up B to do C.  My only problem is that it didn't go far enough.  That's not a rules interpretation, it's a preference.

i kinda agree with you on that. Personal preference for me, is if the abilities were more structured mechanically, rather than a sentence/paragraph explaining how it works.

Old Teroch:
Paragraph : At the start of the Engagement Phase, you may choose 1 enemy ship at range 1. If you do and you are in its Icon arc standard front, it removes all of its green tokens.
Mechanical :

  • Timing : Start of Engagement Phase
  • Ability (Optional) : Choose 1 enemy ship at Range 1 while in its Icon arc standard front
  • Effect : Chosen ship removes all its green tokens.


Anakin Skywalker:
Paragraph: After you fully execute a maneuver, if there is an enemy ship in your Icon arc standard front at range 0-1 or in your Icon arc bullseye, you may spend 1 Icon force to remove 1 stress token.

Mechanical :

  • Timing : After full execution of a maneuver
  • Requirement : Enemy ship in your Icon arc standard front at range 0-1
    • Alternate Requirement:  Enemy ship in your Icon arc bullseye,
  • Cost:  Spend 1 Icon force
  • Effect : Remove 1 stress token

     

Or you know.. something to that effect. Something thats a step by step, hit each point and check it kind of a thing.

That said, the "
You can't add it to the queue if you can't do the whole thing right now." as the issue of gaining information before the ability trips off. Dont know if that will matter much, but it could.

Of course, im also of the opinion that, once you add abilities to the queue, you have to try to resolve them if at all possible.

Edited by Lyianx

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