Dragon Sight

[EGG2 0]

Is there an action round in-between the declaration of defenders and attackers?

[Zsa 0]

For Dragon Sight specifically, it seems that it creates another framework event.

Since it doesn't say specifically that you have a player action window in between declaring defenders and attackers, then you can't. It's similar to the Shadow action framework created at the beginning of every round. You can't play any player actions between the beginning of the phase and the shadows phase. 

 

[EGG2 0]

Too bad.  I had some cool ideas with Ambush characters and Summer Reserves.

[Ikaros 0]

 I think the player action window between attackers declaration and defenders declaration is lost, but is NOT lost the player action window between the partecipating characters declaration and determining the winner of the challenge. Right?

Normal flow:

- Active player declares challenge type
- Active player kneels attackers
- Player actions window
- Active player chooses stealth
- Defending player kneels defenders
- Player actions window
- Determine winner of the challenge

Dragon Sight flow (### are eliminated steps):

- Active player declares challenge type
- Defending player kneels defenders
- Active player kneels attackers
- Player actions window
- ### choosing stealth has no meaning ###
- ### this opportunity to declare defenders is lost ###
- Player actions window
- Determine winner of the challenge

So I think ambush could be used, after declaration of partecipants, and before determining the winner.

[ktom 598]

Ikaros said:

So I think ambush could be used, after declaration of partecipants, and before determining the winner.

Your flow is mostly right, but I don't think you are entirely getting what Egg wanted to do. 

In the normal flow, the first Player Action window (before stealth/defenders are declared) is available to the defending player to Ambush characters in and potentially have additional defenders available. Egg was hoping that the only thing that changed in the flow was that the "declare defenders" and "declare attackers" framework steps switched, so that the first Player Action window would be available to him to Ambush potential attackers into play before attackers were declared.

As your own Dragon Sight flow shows, declaring defenders is moved up, but there is still no Player Action window between declaring the challenge and kneeling attackers. With Dragon Sight, neither player will have time to Ambush characters into play after the challenge has been initiated but before attacking/defending characters must be knelt.

Characters could indeed still be Ambushed into play before the challenge resolves, but not in time to participate in the actual challenge. That's what Egg was really trying to do.

Oh, and BTW: while declaring Stealth targets in your Dragon Sight flow will not stop anyone from defending (since defenders have already been knelt), a Martell player using Lost Oasis would argue that "Choosing Stealth" has no meaning. Choosing stealth still happens, as would any potential "after a character is bypassed using Stealth" effect. It just doesn't impact who can defend in the current challenge.

[EGG2 0]

Can the attacking player choose to not kneel any attacker?

[ktom 598]

Egg said:

Can the attacking player choose to not kneel any attacker?

No. The attacking player must still kneel at least one attacker, even if the defending player commits so many defenders that he cannot win. The basic rule that "you must declare at least one attacking character when initiating an attack" does not change just because defenders are declared first.

[EGG2 0]

ktom said:

Egg said:

Can the attacking player choose to not kneel any attacker?

 

No. The attacking player must still kneel at least one attacker, even if the defending player commits so many defenders that he cannot win. The basic rule that "you must declare at least one attacking character when initiating an attack" does not change just because defenders are declared first.

Not trying to be annoying here, just looking for clarification.  What if a situation occurs where the attacking player can not declare(or "kneel") an attacking character because of something that happened during the declare defenders step?  I can't think of a situation but I could make one up.

eg.  A character's pasive says "**** can only be declared as an attacker if all opponents characters are standing"  and this character is the only one with the proper icon.

Does the challenge fizzle?  Does the challenge proceed to the Player Action WIndow? 

[ktom 598]

I don't think there are any situations in which that could happen, but if it did, you come down to this line of reasoning:

- An attacking character MUST be declared for the challenge to be initiated
- If an attacking character is NOT declared, you never actually initiated the challenge
- If the challenge was never actually initiated, those defenders were knelt illegally

Essentially, you'd create a paradox which ends up canceling the action out. In the situation you describe, you could not initiate the challenge in the first place. It's like when a the results of a STR check and an icon check influence the outcomes of each other (like putting Shadow's Blessing on Former Champion) - you ignore both of them.

 

[jack merridew 0]

Another Dragon Sight question but i didnt want to make a new thread just for it

 

if i have no intrigue icons on the board can i declare an intrigue challenge and then ambush in my character after my opponent declares defenders. i dont see why not but it became an issue with one of my friends so i just wanted clarification.   Also im guessing Queen Daernys hordes passive doesnt matter if defenders are declared before attackers?

[Saturnine 47]

jack merridew said:

Another Dragon Sight question but i didnt want to make a new thread just for it

 

if i have no intrigue icons on the board can i declare an intrigue challenge and then ambush in my character after my opponent declares defenders. i dont see why not but it became an issue with one of my friends so i just wanted clarification.   Also im guessing Queen Daernys hordes passive doesnt matter if defenders are declared before attackers?

I don't think so, because declaring your attackers is still part of the framework window of initiating your challenge (or so I would assume) and therefore would happen before the player action window that occurs during the challenge.

 

And yes, Queen Dany's Horde's ability would be moot.

[jack merridew 0]

So i would have to ambush in the character before i declared a challenge if there are no other characters on the board with said icon?

[Saturnine 47]

jack merridew said:

So i would have to ambush in the character before i declared a challenge if there are no other characters on the board with said icon?

 

Aye.

[ktom 598]

jack merridew said:

So i would have to ambush in the character before i declared a challenge if there are no other characters on the board with said icon?

Correct. The timing of it all is detailed above. The timing of declaring the challenge doesn't actually change with Dragon Sight, except that the declaration of defenders is thrown in as part of initiating the challenge.

Look at it this way: Under normal circumstances, you could not declare the intrigue challenge, then Ambush in an eligible attacker (seeing as how there were no others on the board)? No? Then that requirement doesn't change here, either.

[jack merridew 0]

rahh, yet another reason not to use dragon sight with dragons. 

 

thank you both

[Shenanigans8 1]

What about something like Horseback Archers, or Mandon Moore?

From the text of the Archers, ("during a military challenge") I would guess that you could put them in after the defenders have been declared, but from what you've said above, Mandon Moore wouldn't work, as you still need an action window.

This does make Dragon Sight a slightly less attractive option, but consider that you could still Ambush something in for the next attack after they've used up potential defenders. That's not what you were looking to do, but still useful.

[Saturnine 47]

 Correct. The Archers work because their ability specifically puts them into play as a participating character. Mandon's ability requires a player action, just like Ambush.

[ktom 598]

Saturnine said:

 Correct. The Archers work because their ability specifically puts them into play as a participating character.

Incorrect. Horseback Archers is still a "Challenges action". You still need a player action window in which to trigger their effect.

You cannot jump them into the challenge between declaring defenders and declaring attackers with Dragon Sight on the table. Dragon Sight will not let you declare a challenge with Horseback Archers alone. You must complete the process of declaring the challenge with another character that has a military icon. Then you could jump them in as an attacker.

[Saturnine 47]

Of course, ktom. I totally forgot that this was about bringing characters into play in order to declare your challenge, and not whether they can participate after you have already declared attackers, so I was answering a question that hadn't been asked, apparently.

 

[Shenanigans8 1]

Well actually Saturnine, you answered the question I meant to ask...I think.

So if I have Dragon Sight and a couple military character on the table and it's Summer, declare a military challenge, let opponent declare defenders, declare one of my military characters as the attacker, I can then pop Horseback Archers in?

[ktom 598]

Shenanigans said:

So if I have Dragon Sight and a couple military character on the table and it's Summer, declare a military challenge, let opponent declare defenders, declare one of my military characters as the attacker, I can then pop Horseback Archers in?

ktom said:

Dragon Sight will not let you declare a challenge with Horseback Archers alone. You must complete the process of declaring the challenge with another character that has a military icon. Then you could jump them in as an attacker.

Or defender.

[Shenanigans8 1]

Well, I guess I could have just read what you wrote.

The defender option does raise some interesting possibilities.