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EliasWindrider

Pick and make a force tradition universal spec

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Posted (edited)

Over in the edge of the empire forums in the what do you want from edge studios? thread I suggest a book of force tradition universal specs and it got enough likes that I figured that maybe it might make a good community project

So the idea is to make a universal specialization that is on par with a not lightsaber form spec from FaD or the universal specs in the clone wars books or dawn of rebellion.  If the force tradition (e.g. jensarri) uses a lightsaber then they should be subpar with the saber relative to jedi/with lightsaber forms.  This is also not an invitation to make up your own force tradition... pick something from canon or legends

So pick something from wookieepedia, here's a list

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Force-based_organizations

Also providing a force rating is not required, the force adherant from dawn of rebellion would fit in this project... and that is a very low level of force sensitivity represented by superior reflexes and sixth sense.

I admit to being a sucker for force sensitive martial artists, so I'm asking in advance for you to check me on the matukai https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Matukai, I recognize my own bias regarding them and my first attempt is probably going to be over the top without me intending it to be.  The first step to countering ones own biases is recognizing that you/I have them, the second step is getting help from others.

 

Edit: I initially named these prestige classes instead of universal spec, because that's what the zeizon sha/ matukai/baron dao sages/and wardens of the sky were under wotc.  These are NOT supposed to be better than official options.

If you're trying to make more than 1 spec for a force tradition then it should be a career (e.g sith) not a universal spec, and for now this thread is for universal specs only.

 

Created Force Tradition/Organization universal specs

 

 

Matukai Adept https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Matukai

Career skills: brawl, coordination, discipline, resilience 

 

Iron body                 Wan Shen technique     Iron Body         Toughened

                                                      |                                                         |

Somatic ritual                         Parry-----------unarmed parry      Enduring 

        |                                            |                          |                               

Burning  Hands           Extended reach ------weapon kata-------Dodge

        |                                            |                                                         |                              

Inner Harmony                 witchcraft         Superior reflexes----Dodge (improved)

        |                                            |                          |

Balance ---------------------- Sixth sense ------natural brawler-----Dedication

New Talents: 

*Wan shen technique: Melee becomes a career skill.  In addition the character can use a two handed Brawl, Melee, or Lightsaber weapon in one hand and receive the benefits of using it in two hands and one hand simultaneously 

*Weapon kata: once per round after making a successful Brawl Melee, or Lightsaber attack, the character may spend 2 advantage to immediately make an Brawl attack as an incidental against any engaged target.

*Inner Harmony: force talent: the character may use the enhance force power (including purchased upgrades) and balance talent even when all force dice are committed, furthermore he generates ○○ on top rolled force die results rolled for the enhance force power and balance talent.  the extra ○○ can not be spent on other force talents or powers.

*Burning hands: force talent: the character may commit a force die to add damage equal  to ranks in discipline to the each hit of unarmed brawl attacks made while the force die remains committed

*Somatic Ritual: force talent: the character may spend a maneuver to temporarily increase his force rating by one use of a force power or force talent made before the end of his next turn, this extra force die can not be committed.

Commentary on the inner harmony talent because I figure people are going reactively give it the stink eye

Similar to the existence of restrictions on the ascetic's empty soul talent, Inner Harmony is restricted to 1 force power (enhance) and 1 talent (balance) and since it only generates lightside pips that restricts its utility to characters who haven't fallen to the darkside side (because they'd be using darkside pips)  so a morality restriction, all of that is thematically appropriate to Matukai. 

In terms of power, matukai adept gets this and somatic ritual instead of "empty soul" plus a force rating talent.  Looking at the pair of empty soul + force rating you get 1+ 2/3 force pips on average (either lightside or darkside, no morality restriction) on all force powers... this gives you 2 lightside pips for enhance (and balance) so 1/3 pip more for a very narrow area of application where it is slightly stronger and nothing for every thing else.   If you spend a maneuver (so a very high at the time cost) you get to add 2/3 pips on average

For all other force talents you're either down 2/3 of a force pip (on average) , or down a maneuver.  For other force power you're down either 1 +2/3 pips (on average) or down 1 force pip and a maneuver and you can't commit the temporary force die which rules out a lot of uses.

 So this is slightly stronger in a very narrow area of narratively appropriate focus and dramatically weaker in all other cases.

In terms of cost this is 145 xp to get the pair (buying through the matukai adept tree) vs. 130 xp to get the pair for ascetic, and that's if you buy through witchcraft which is 20 xp with zero benefit if you already had a force rating, otherwise it's dramatically more expensive.

If any specialization merits a "janky tree" (and the smuggler:gambler specialization has one), Matukai Adept is the specialization with the best narrative justification for it.  The gist of it is that through an long arduous process involving physical training/disciple, meditation rituals etc., the matukai could awaken the force in those not inherently gifted with strong force sensitivity.  People the jedi rejected for training  because of their weak force sensitivity could become matukai to strengthen their force connection.

 

Wan Shen

Skill Dam Crit Range Encum HP Price Rarity Special
Melee +3 2 Engaged 3 4 800 8 Pierce 2, Two-Handed, defensive 1

****************************************************************

Zeizon sha (grants FR1)  https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Zeison_Sha

Disk Blade Technique              Insight.                         Survivor.                           Grit

          |                                             |                                       |                                    |

Saber Throw---------------Telekinetic Parry--------Constant vigilance ------outdoorsman

                                                                                                  |                                     |

Saber Throw (Improved)--------Grit ------------------Natural Hunter-------expert tracker

         |                                                                                                                              |

Disk Blade Mastery-------Telekinetic Parry --Telekinetic Parry (improved)   Forager

                                                                                                  |                                     |

Force Rating------------practiced Telekinetic-----Telekinetic Parry-------------Dedication

*telekinetic parry: force talent: out of turn incidental,when hit by a melee attack, spend 3 strain to reduce damage by 2 plus ranks in telekinetic parry

*telekinetic parry (improved): force talent: may also use telekinetic parry to reduce damage from ranged attacks 

*practiced telekinetic: force talent: add ○● to move and bind force power checks and the saber throw, saber throw (improved) and Disk Blade Mastery force talent checks

* Disk blade technique:  Ranged(Light) becomes a career  skill  for the character, additionally the character may use the saber throw and saber throw (improved) talents with any Ranged(Light) thrown weapons using the Ranged (Light) skill instead of Lightsaber.

* Disk Blade Mastery: force talent: add force dice up to current force rating to Ranged(Light) attacks made with thrown weapons.  May spend 🌗 to add [success] or [advantage].

* Survivor: Vigilance & survival become career skills for the character

 

Disk Blade

Skill Dam Crit Range Encum HP Price Rarity Special
Ranged - Light 4 2 Short 2 2 500 8 Limited Ammo 1, Pierce 2, Vicious 1

Can be used as a melee weapon with following profile;

Skill Dam Crit Range Special
Melee +2 2 Engaged Inaccurate 1, Pierce 2, Vicious 1

Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong with the [sblock]

Yada

[/sblock]

Edited by EliasWindrider

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Posted (edited)

So like I was saying, I'm a sucker for a force enhanced martial artist, so recognizing my own bias the following set of talents are probably too good, if so I want suggestion for what I should drop

So I'm trying to ceeat a universal spec for Matukai read description here

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Matukai

There gist is they take people the jedi would reject because of too low force aptiude and through a long arduous process of ritual, meditation, physical training, martial arts they awaken force sensitivity (so the force rating talent would be super hard to get to)  here's a list of talents before I try to lay them out in a tree I want feedback on the list.  And weapon kata is the name of an extra attack special ability that matukai had under d20.  They mixed melee and brawl attacks.

Career skills: brawl, melee, coordination discipline 

Talents:

1) Witchcraft see nightsister in clone wars book

2) Wan shen technique (can use a two handed Brawl, Melee, or Lightsaber weapon in one hand and receive the benefits of using it in two hands and one hand simultaneously)

3) Weapon kata: once per round after making a successful Brawl,  Melee, or Lightsaber attack, the character may spend 2 advantage to immediately make a brawl attack as an incidental against any engaged target.

4) Burning hands: force talent: character may commit a force die to gain the burn quality on his Brawl attacks with burn damage equal to his ranks in discipline.

6) 2x iron body

7) Extended reach (see force adherant in dawn of rebellion)

😎 parry

9) Unarmed parry

11) 2x combat veteran (boost to brawl and discipline)

12) dodge

13) improved dodge

14) Toughened 

15) Dedication 

16) Force rating

17) superior reflexes 

18) feral strength 

19) natural brawler

20) balance

 

Edit: insert Brawl, Melee, or Lightsaber in 2) wan shen technique (I'm thinking of renaming it to wan shen grip to be more consistent with my recollection of the orginal d20 prestige class)

Edited by EliasWindrider

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Career skills: brawl, melee, coordination discipline 

Let's maybe just do what all the other generic Force specs do and go with Career skills: none?

And then if you really have to, maybe give them a Talent that gives them some extra career skills, like the Recruit and Imperial Academy Cadet specs do. Or even Well rounded?

Does Wan shen technique work with ranged weapons? What precisely does it even do in this system? Because you can already dual-wield two-handed weapons.

Edited by micheldebruyn

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, micheldebruyn said:

Let's maybe just do what all the other generic Force specs do and go with Career skills: none?

And then if you really have to, maybe give them a Talent that gives them some extra career skills, like the Recruit and Imperial Academy Cadet specs do. Or even Well rounded?

Does Wan shen technique work with ranged weapons? What precisely does it even do in this system? Because you can already dual-wield two-handed weapons.

There is one universal force spec that doesn't do that, it's the nightsister in one of the clone wars books... it introduced the witchcraft talent, which given the matukai's legends fluff emphasis on rituals, and for very weakly force sensitive individuals. I was going to put witchcraft further down (more expensive,  maybe 20 xp) The tree as something they had to work towards to gain force sensitivity, kind of gatewaying the force talents burning hands, balance, force rating... but with a longer path around it for someone, who didn't want to spend the 20 xp on a useless talent because they already had a force rating.... which I was thinking was still narratively appropriate for the matukai based on the fluff.

Wan shen technique let's the character use unarmed parry and extended reach at the same time, which I thought was faithful to the fluff.

Edit: the witchcraft talent is a not force talent  that grants fr 1, it does not increase fr above 1.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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2 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Wan shen technique let's the character use unarmed parry and extended reach at the same time, which I thought was faithful to the fluff.

What's stopping the character from doing it without that talent? Unarmed Parry does not require having a free hand. With how long combat rounds last in this game, it's perfectly alright to describe quickly twirling your weapon in one hand while parrying with your free hand, too.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

What's stopping the character from doing it without that talent? Unarmed Parry does not require having a free hand. With how long combat rounds last in this game, it's perfectly alright to describe quickly twirling your weapon in one hand while parrying with your free hand, too.

According to the dev on the order 66 episode on the bounty hunter martial artist spec which is where the unarmed parry talent originated, the unarmed in unarmed parry means you have to have at least 1 free hand

I think it was called bounty hunting for fun and profit but I'm not sure I remember the episode title correctly.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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Posted (edited)

Unrelated I think it would also let a character use a portable plasma shield and a wan shen together, but that wasn't the purpose of the talent, and I think it would qualify the +1 damage and vicious mod from an extended hilt lightsaber attachment which I was thinking of because some matukai joined Luke Skywalker's jedi academy on yavin in legends (although think a matukai jedi wouldbe more likely to use a lightsaber pike because of similarity to a wan shen)... and I thought it was a natural carry over.  But there aren't that many uses.... btw I think there was a wan shen grip special ability under d20, so faithfulness to my recollection of the matukai adept prestige class.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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4 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

So like I was saying, I'm a sucker for a force enhanced martial artist, so recognizing my own bias the following set of talents are probably too good, if so I want suggestion for what I should drop

So I'm trying to ceeat a universal spec for Matukai read description here

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Matukai

There gist is they take people the jedi would reject because of too low force aptiude and through a long arduous process of ritual, meditation, physical training, martial arts they awaken force sensitivity (so the force rating talent would be super hard to get to)  here's a list of talents before I try to lay them out in a tree I want feedback on the list.  And weapon kata is the name of an extra attack special ability that matukai had under d20.  They mixed melee and brawl attacks.

Career skills: brawl, melee, coordination discipline 

Talents:

1) Witchcraft see nightsister in clone wars book

2) Wan shen technique (can use a two handed weapon in one hand and receive the benefits of using it in two hands and one hand simultaneously)

3) Weapon kata: once per round after making a successful Brawl,  Melee, or Lightsaber attack, the character may spend 2 advantage to immediately make a brawl attack as an incidental against any engaged target.

4) Burning hands: force talent: character may commit a force die to gain the burn quality on his Brawl attacks with burn damage equal to his ranks in discipline.

6) 2x iron body

7) Extended reach (see force adherant in dawn of rebellion)

😎 parry

9) Unarmed parry

11) 2x combat veteran (boost to brawl and discipline)

12) dodge

13) improved dodge

14) Toughened 

15) Dedication 

16) Force rating

17) superior reflexes 

18) feral strength 

19) natural brawler

20) balance

Is there too much synergy in this list of talents?

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Quote

Wan shen technique let's the character use unarmed parry and extended reach at the same time, which I thought was faithful to the fluff.

The rules do not recognise one-handed and two-handed weapons being different things. Unlike Genesys, this game doesn't have a Melee-Light and Melee-Heavy skill divide. There is nothing in the rules that says you have to use a two-handed weapon (according to the fluff) with both hands.

Which I suppose is true to both the source material and real life.

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11 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

 

The rules do not recognise one-handed and two-handed weapons being different things. Unlike Genesys, this game doesn't have a Melee-Light and Melee-Heavy skill divide. There is nothing in the rules that says you have to use a two-handed weapon (according to the fluff) with both hands.

Which I suppose is true to both the source material and real life.

Check the wording on portable plasma shields attachment and extended hilt attachment, also check the tables of lightsabers (the great saber specifically says 2 handed), the initial variant of double bladed lightsaber didn't say 2 handed, but I believe the temple guard saber does (I haven't checked in a while).   There are enough references to 1 handed and 2 handed, that I hold a different view from you on that.

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The Two-Weapon combat rules state that they are only compatible with "one-handed melee weapons."

I'm not especially familar with FaD, so I can't speak to lightsabers, but that is somewhere it's specified to have a difference. Plus, if there's no difference between one-handed weapons and two-handed weapons, why label them at all?

 

As for my two cents on the tree, I don't have a ton to say. This isn't a topic that I know a lot about or that interests me all that much (I've said my piece in the thread where this was originally brought up), so I can only look at it from a mechanical perspective.

I think Weapon Kata is too much (probably should at least be Triumph), but then again, Improved Precision Strike allows you to trigger Overpowered if you crit. I'm also not a fan of Burning Hands, especially since it can be triggered twice per turn in conjunction with Weapon Kata.
From what I've skimmed (not familiar with them outside of that article), I'd suggest maybe add in Blooded. I know it's not a great talent, but it matches some of the fluff and not every talent has to be great. It has its place, even if it is a niche.

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28 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The Two-Weapon combat rules state that they are only compatible with "one-handed melee weapons."

I'm not especially familar with FaD, so I can't speak to lightsabers, but that is somewhere it's specified to have a difference. Plus, if there's no difference between one-handed weapons and two-handed weapons, why label them at all?

 

As for my two cents on the tree, I don't have a ton to say. This isn't a topic that I know a lot about or that interests me all that much (I've said my piece in the thread where this was originally brought up), so I can only look at it from a mechanical perspective.

I think Weapon Kata is too much (probably should at least be Triumph), but then again, Improved Precision Strike allows you to trigger Overpowered if you crit. I'm also not a fan of Burning Hands, especially since it can be triggered twice per turn in conjunction with Weapon Kata.
From what I've skimmed (not familiar with them outside of that article), I'd suggest maybe add in Blooded. I know it's not a great talent, but it matches some of the fluff and not every talent has to be great. It has its place, even if it is a niche.

Iron body helps with resilience checks... resilience is the skill used to resist poison, si I thought  it was covered that way.

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2 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Iron body helps with resilience checks... resilience is the skill used to resist poison, si I thought  it was covered that way.

Most of the time you aren't going to have Setback on Resilience checks to resist poison. Boost is something that will always be there and provides a positive bonus.

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1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Most of the time you aren't going to have Setback on Resilience checks to resist poison. Boost is something that will always be there and provides a positive bonus.

Good point, not sure what the tree could/should give up for it though, maybe feral strength.

Regarding  burn damage.... you need 2 advantage to activate burn, that's damage that happens the next round, and burn damage doesn't stack if I remember correctly... so 2 hits this round shouldn't be any than 1 hit this round in terms of the burn damage you take next round... so the stacking with weapon kata isn't as impressive it might seem at first.  Also I think soak applies to burn damage (can you check?) and the burn damage caps out at 5 so after soak you're probably won't be dealing more than 3 points and probably less than that.... yeah I think that needs a rewrite... seems too weak... maybe if it increased the base damage of the attack as well.

Weapon kata is strictly weaker than improved precision strike even if it was restricted to the overpowered critical hit because overpowered is the same weapon, and with weapon kata the extra attack has to be a brawl attack... however weapon kata's brawl attack can be made against any adjacent opponent because with the extended reach talent you might not be able to reach the target you just hit with a wan shen attack... so maybe it has a little more utility while being weaker.

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3 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Also I think soak applies to burn damage (can you check?)

Yes.

4 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

and the burn damage caps out at 5 so after soak you're probably won't be dealing more than 3 points and probably less than that...

What makes it cap out at 5?

Maybe add a Stun quality instead of Burn. Has a similar effect against Minions/Rivals, but against Nemesis it'll have a bit more usefulness since they're likely to have a higher Soak.

4 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Weapon kata is strictly weaker than improved precision strike even if it was restricted to the overpowered critical hit because overpowered is the same weapon, and with weapon kata the extra attack has to be a brawl attack... however weapon kata's brawl attack can be made against any adjacent opponent because with the extended reach talent you might not be able to reach the target you just hit with a wan shen attack... so maybe it has a little more utility while being weaker.

I forgot that Precision Strike applied to any melee attack, I thought it was only unarmed Brawl. That might be a bit overpowered, especially with really low critical ratings.

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17 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Yes.

What makes it cap out at 5?

Maybe add a Stun quality instead of Burn. Has a similar effect against Minions/Rivals, but against Nemesis it'll have a bit more usefulness since they're likely to have a higher Soak.

I forgot that Precision Strike applied to any melee attack, I thought it was only unarmed Brawl. That might be a bit overpowered, especially with really low critical ratings.

Burn damage equal to ranks in discipline, and you can't have more than 5 ranks (6 if you had a cybernetic that granted a +1 to a general skill discipline) .  But if it added damage equal to discipline to the first hit of an attack it'd be like a weaker version of deadly accuracy (because you have to commit a force die and it only works with unarmed attacks) but if it also did the burn damage that puts it on par with deadly accuracy.

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7 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Burn damage equal to ranks in discipline, and you can't have more than 5 ranks (6 if you had a cybernetic that granted a +1 to a general skill discipline) .  But if it added damage equal to discipline to the first hit of an attack it'd be like a weaker version of deadly accuracy (because you have to commit a force die and it only works with unarmed attacks) but if it also did the burn damage that puts it on par with deadly accuracy.

Oh. I missed that since Burn is off of base damage, I didn't realize you were changing it like that.

Perhaps Stun quality equal to Discipline?

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27 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Oh. I missed that since Burn is off of base damage, I didn't realize you were changing it like that.

Perhaps Stun quality equal to Discipline?

Force of impact doesn't really affect how much fire something hot sets something else on.

Stun is a clean mechanic but the problem with it is that stun doesn't match the fluff of altering the temperature of a part of your body to the point that it burns the stuff you touch.

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1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

Force of impact doesn't really affect how much fire something hot sets something else on.

I agree, but I was interpreting it from RAW.

1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

Stun is a clean mechanic but the problem with it is that stun doesn't match the fluff of altering the temperature of a part of your body to the point that it burns the stuff you touch.

I'm not all that familiar with the Matukai, but do they actually set things on fire or is it just hot to the touch, like touching a hot cooktop? If the latter, Stun makes more sense (or wounds might be better, but Stun's what we've got) than damage over time.

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17 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I agree, but I was interpreting it from RAW.

I'm not all that familiar with the Matukai, but do they actually set things on fire or is it just hot to the touch, like touching a hot cooktop? If the latter, Stun makes more sense (or wounds might be better, but Stun's what we've got) than damage over time.

The heroes guide, force feat body adjustment associated with the matukai says deals 1d3 damage to any creature or object you touch.  dealing damage to an object implies hot enough to catch fire.  Stun damaged shouldn't affect objects.  

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Just now, EliasWindrider said:

The heroes guide, force feat body adjustment associated with the matukai says deals 1d3 damage to any creature or object you touch.  dealing damage to an object implies hot enough to catch fire.  Stun damaged shouldn't affect objects.  

I disagree, but I'll let this point slide so we don't derail the thread on a single relatively minor question.

I think Stun is a better mechanical way of filling this role, but it would take some narrative understanding to understand the source of the Stun damage and the nuances associated with how it interacts with Minions and Rivals.

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3 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I disagree, but I'll let this point slide so we don't derail the thread on a single relatively minor question.

I think Stun is a better mechanical way of filling this role, but it would take some narrative understanding to understand the source of the Stun damage and the nuances associated with how it interacts with Minions and Rivals.

I think it needs a rewrite make immune to hot and cold environments, maybe protect against the burn quality and add damage equal to discipline to brawl attacks.... maybe drop adding the burn quality 

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Is the a precedent for a ranked talent to not be a force talent and an improved version being a force talent?

I was thinking of an iron body improved being a commit a force die to increase soak by ranks in iron body and add successes equal to ranks in iron body to resilience checks

I'm thinking of replacing melee with resilience in the career skills and having wan shen technique also grant melee as a career skill.

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4 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Is the a precedent for a ranked talent to not be a force talent and an improved version being a force talent?

Supreme Parry.

28 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I think it needs a rewrite make immune to hot and cold environments, maybe protect against the burn quality and add damage equal to discipline to brawl attacks.... maybe drop adding the burn quality 

I suggest making it "Commit Foce Die to remove up to X (probably 2) Setback due to hot or cold environmental effects, and decrease the difficulty of Resilience checks to resist the effects of hot or cold environments by 1." I think you are trying to cram way too much into a single talent, and immune to hot/cold is overpowered I think. Perhaps a second talent for "flip DP to add damage equal to Willpower" (I assume that's a talent, don't remember the name), and maybe a third for making it cost 1 extra Advantage to trigger Burn and reducing the duration by 1.

Or, pick and choose between these. I don't think you should cram them all into one talent, and immunity is taking it a bit far in my opinion.

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3 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

The heroes guide, force feat body adjustment associated with the matukai says deals 1d3 damage to any creature or object you touch.  dealing damage to an object implies hot enough to catch fire.  Stun damaged shouldn't affect objects.  

Yeah, no. Being incredibly hot doesn't let you light stuff on fire. Dousing them in some sort of combustible or fuel lets you light stuff on fire. Hitting somebody with a burning torch (or lightsaber) doesn't set the opponent on fire unles he already was covered in petrol, or possibly a mummy or other adversary type especially vulnerable to that sort of thing.

Reading up on them, this doesn't even seem to be like a major thing they do. It's mostly seems to be about dropping all of your XP into Enhance and Melee. And they need some talents that let them resist extreme temperatures and maybe poison, as well as talents that make them fast (like Quickdraw and Quick Strike).

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