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57 minutes ago, Eisenmerc said:

More Core Set bans and restrictions in an environment where there are no events to even test the effects of these changes. This is how games die.   

Except that most of the "bans" are things folks have been calling for over the last few months because they have all been problematic cards for quite a while.  Also there have been plenty of "events" over the quarantine period via online tournaments and leagues so I wouldn't say that there is no way to test the effects of this list change.

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Posted (edited)

Ban the whole core set and get a new one. 

At this point I'm beginning to think that they should just make a whole new version of the game like they did the V2 for Game of Thrones

Get rid of Province cards, get rid of mono no aware and just have characters leave play each turn, get rid of 

Decomplexify the game, make it accessible to everyday gamers and not only to hardcore ones.

 

You cannot hope to have a a card game have a long life if you don't renew the playerbase regularly. L5R as it is has no appeal to new players. It is too niche and too targeted at Spikes.

Skirmish is a huge step in the right direction, but we're not even halfway there.

 

 

 

Edited by Ser Nakata

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Posted (edited)

I mean it's been pretty evident that the core set is where most of the issues are in the card pool.  I don't think this is at all surprising.  I really want them to just do an updated core set with all the knowledge they have about the game now.  I know their rationale for slowing rotation down for this game, but I was looking forward to that milestone.  I have fond memories of Netrunner immediately post rotation so that might be coloring my opinion.

The bans help the environment.  Not banning problem cards would definitely do more damage if history is any guide.  I agree that no events is very concerning.  Such a long break for a competitive game is gonna have an effect.  There will always be a floor of dedicated L5R fans, but I hope this quarantine doesn't attrition too many people out of the game.  Especially since I don't feel they've really addressed how they get new people into this game without it feeling like climbing mount Everest.

Edited by phillos

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, phillos said:

I agree that no events is very concerning.  Such a long break for a competitive game is gonna have an effect.  There will always be a floor of dedicated L5R fans, but I hope this quarantine doesn't attrition too many people out of the game.  Especially since I don't feel they've really addressed how they get new people into this game without it feeling like climbing mount Everest.

Right on. If there were a new Core Set this wouldn't be (as much of) a problem. Where is the entry point for new players here?

I can imagine the conversation now. "Well to get into the game you'll need to buy 1-3 core sets. Oh and don't forget to go through this ever expanding banned and restricted list to get rid off the cards you can't use." Exactly what a potential new recruit wants to hear :P  

Edited by Eisenmerc

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I understand the reason for wanting to structure symmetric releases across factions.  I've seen games where the economic incentive to support the popular factions create a disparity in the product pool.  Take Warhammer 40K for instance.  For decades it felt like constant Space Marine releases contrasted by almost no support for the Dark Elder or Sisters Of Battle until recent history.  Also at the same time I understand the need to lower the SKU count on FLGS shelves to keep it friendly for them.

That said wouldn't it be so much nicer for a new player to have a faction starter deck on the rack instead of the core set.  A more affordable and playable deck that's tournament legal. If only the clan pack was that.  I really appreciate that they are doing this for Arkham Horror.  Too bad it's coming so late into the game's life.  Also it's great Marvel Champions was structured that way from day one.  That said the co ops don't have the same sort of problem with new player buy into the game.  FFG is definitely listening to the concern.  I don't know if we'll see the launch of another competitive LCG, but it's be extremely curious to see if and how they change the way it's distributed to address these issues.  Could we see a competitive LCG where every new pack was a playable deck and still useful in constructed and non-random?  Would be interesting.

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1 hour ago, phillos said:

I understand the reason for wanting to structure symmetric releases across factions.  I've seen games where the economic incentive to support the popular factions create a disparity in the product pool.  Take Warhammer 40K for instance.  For decades it felt like constant Space Marine releases contrasted by almost no support for the Dark Elder or Sisters Of Battle until recent history.  Also at the same time I understand the need to lower the SKU count on FLGS shelves to keep it friendly for them.

That said wouldn't it be so much nicer for a new player to have a faction starter deck on the rack instead of the core set.  A more affordable and playable deck that's tournament legal. If only the clan pack was that.  I really appreciate that they are doing this for Arkham Horror.  Too bad it's coming so late into the game's life.  Also it's great Marvel Champions was structured that way from day one.  That said the co ops don't have the same sort of problem with new player buy into the game.  FFG is definitely listening to the concern.  I don't know if we'll see the launch of another competitive LCG, but it's be extremely curious to see if and how they change the way it's distributed to address these issues.  Could we see a competitive LCG where every new pack was a playable deck and still useful in constructed and non-random?  Would be interesting.

I think Skirmish is the first step in addressing that for the competitive LCG.  Unfortunately the current collection of accessories and tokens that you need for the game is one of the biggest obstacles to putting a clan start collecting deck out there that wouldn't be so expensive that the price eclipses the cost of just getting the three cores if you plan to play with more then 3-4 or the clans.

However, now that we have Skirmish if we ever have the opportunity for a core 2.0 you can address a lot of that with the distribution model.  Curate the card pool to eliminate the most problematic cards and salvage key pieces from the 1st and 2nd cycles that are needed for the card pool (likely with new art to try and entice existing players to buy in).  Then you release a Core 2.0 that is essentially the same format as the current core, only with 3 of's for the role locked cards (like a re-worked Keeper and Seeker) and the addition of Stronghold and Province cards.  You offer Skirmish decks that are 2 copies of the clan cards and selected neutrals to supplement that core for players that want Stronghold play sets.  The main advantage here is the Skirmish decks don't need as many tokens due to smaller bid dial (0-3) less fate and honor tokens and just go with slightly smaller Rings, you include a card copy of the favor that is double sided with a play style or lore breakdown for the clan on one side and the favor on the other so they are a good get in on the ground floor option for new players and when they are ready to move on to Stronghold that is when they move on to buying the core set instead of the other way around.  It sadly wouldn't have worked before we had Skirmish as a clan starter would have still needed to include role cards, provinces, stronghold and enough cards for a 40/40 deck, where as Skirmish we've eliminated those 11 "support" cards, and slim down to a 30/30 deck.

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Posted (edited)

yeah certainly it feels like there's an opportunity for Skirmish Starter decks with a core set geared toward Stronghold.  It is nice that they got it into size with that format.  That would be an interesting model if they go toward a core 2.0 for L5R.

Edited by phillos

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My Personal dream would be top Look at skirmish to learn from it for Stronghold. Card types like roles and provinces are somply not bringing enogh to the game in any mode. This would already free up box size and increase the effevtive card pool by removing all role locking. You could then make neutral dyn chars in the core at least ok and end up with 2 cores for 4 clans each having only 3 offs. 8 clans woth mantis ofc. You would get 4 full decks for 30€ and all tokens or all cards in core for 60€ and teo sets. Seems fair to me.

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On 6/22/2020 at 8:52 PM, Schmoozies said:

Except that most of the "bans" are things folks have been calling for over the last few months because they have all been problematic cards for quite a while.  Also there have been plenty of "events" over the quarantine period via online tournaments and leagues so I wouldn't say that there is no way to test the effects of this list change.

The ban of Liar is strange. Especially because it isn't even the strongest 1 coster in Scorpion and cards that are simply overtuned are usually restricted and not banned.

 

18 hours ago, phillos said:

I mean it's been pretty evident that the core set is where most of the issues are in the card pool.  I don't think this is at all surprising.  I really want them to just do an updated core set with all the knowledge they have about the game now.  I know their rationale for slowing rotation down for this game, but I was looking forward to that milestone.  I have fond memories of Netrunner immediately post rotation so that might be coloring my opinion.

The bans help the environment.  Not banning problem cards would definitely do more damage if history is any guide.  I agree that no events is very concerning.  Such a long break for a competitive game is gonna have an effect.  There will always be a floor of dedicated L5R fans, but I hope this quarantine doesn't attrition too many people out of the game.  Especially since I don't feel they've really addressed how they get new people into this game without it feeling like climbing mount Everest.

I don't think that this is necessarily true. The only thing we can deduct from the fact that core set cards are overrepresented on the RL and ban list is that Tyler is more willingly to act on cards that are not part of the current releases.

What I liked from previous updates was that balancing and improving the gameplay were both important in determining which cards were restricted, banned or changed. This one seems like the only real criteria was the gameplay, which sucks for clans that got shafted (Crane, Dragon, Scoprion and probably Crab).

1 hour ago, Monty Pillepalle said:

My Personal dream would be top Look at skirmish to learn from it for Stronghold. Card types like roles and provinces are somply not bringing enogh to the game in any mode. This would already free up box size and increase the effevtive card pool by removing all role locking. You could then make neutral dyn chars in the core at least ok and end up with 2 cores for 4 clans each having only 3 offs. 8 clans woth mantis ofc. You would get 4 full decks for 30€ and all tokens or all cards in core for 60€ and teo sets. Seems fair to me.

I heavily disagree with that. Provinces bring a lot to the game and without them you essentially play a different version of AGoT LCG.

Edited by Ignithas

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To give a little context on my dislike for provinces: choosing which province to attack is way more often than not an uninformed decission which can have dire cosequences with the current powerlevel of the card type. Since it contains no skill expression on either side of the table it feels like an added layer of pure luck on both sides. I think the luck introduced by drawing from a more freely constructed deck is enough. Provines are not essential for the game to work. Skirmish works and is not similar to agot, which is prove enough in my eyes.

 

I am also in the core set has issues camp. It would be to easy to say that only old cards are banned or restricted to sell new cards. The core cards banned or restricted are seen as problematic by most of the community too. The DT had a learning curve an a relauch of the core could incorporate the lessons learned.

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20 hours ago, Monty Pillepalle said:

To give a little context on my dislike for provinces: choosing which province to attack is way more often than not an uninformed decission which can have dire cosequences with the current powerlevel of the card type. Since it contains no skill expression on either side of the table it feels like an added layer of pure luck on both sides. I think the luck introduced by drawing from a more freely constructed deck is enough. Provines are not essential for the game to work. Skirmish works and is not similar to agot, which is prove enough in my eyes.

 

I am also in the core set has issues camp. It would be to easy to say that only old cards are banned or restricted to sell new cards. The core cards banned or restricted are seen as problematic by most of the community too. The DT had a learning curve an a relauch of the core could incorporate the lessons learned.

This assessment seems wrong. If you know the provinces in the game and the decks that are played, you normally have a good knowledge what your oponents provinces can be.

And at that point it is risk management. If I want to play around Restauration of Balance and Upholding Authority, I won't attack with more than 2 str. into unrevealed provinces. If I want to play around Midnight Ravels, maybe I won't buy a big characters etc. Maybe not attacking is the right decision. Maybe getting two fate from a ring is worth the high risk of running and breaking Upholding Authority. This are all very skill intensive decisions and not pure luck.

You are right that the game would work without provinces, but this holds true for 90% of L5R's mechanics.

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I think "Core 2.0" should be built in a way to support 8 Clans/Factions

Either Mantis or Shadowlands take up the 8th slot.

Break up the Core into two options

Base core set that gives you everything

and

Four rival skirmish decks that features two clans each, maybe something like:

Crab vs Shadowlands

Lion vs Crane                       or         Lion vs Unicorn

Phoenix vs Unicorn            or         Phoenix vs Dragon

Scorpion vs Dragon           or         Scorpion vs Crane

*the first set seems to represent the current clan conflicts going, but they can be adjusted as needed for story or proper card placement*

This would give players a cheap entry point into the game to try it.  It would also give you the option to select specific clans via getting multiple copies of the skirmish pack for the clan you like.  And if you want it all you can get that too.  If you get all the 4 rival skirmish sets it equals one full core box so you could just pick up and extra two core boxes.

 

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On 6/25/2020 at 1:23 PM, Ignithas said:

This assessment seems wrong. If you know the provinces in the game and the decks that are played, you normally have a good knowledge what your oponents provinces can be.

And at that point it is risk management. If I want to play around Restauration of Balance and Upholding Authority, I won't attack with more than 2 str. into unrevealed provinces. If I want to play around Midnight Ravels, maybe I won't buy a big characters etc. Maybe not attacking is the right decision. Maybe getting two fate from a ring is worth the high risk of running and breaking Upholding Authority. This are all very skill intensive decisions and not pure luck.

You are right that the game would work without provinces, but this holds true for 90% of L5R's mechanics.

 In general you speak the truth. Randomness from provinces is comparable to randomness from cards in hand. We already have that. It is all a question of dosage. And with the current effects on provinces, the difference in running into a garden or a shameful is dramatic. Provinces can lead to enforcing a gambling or a very slow playstyle. The former is obvious bs, the later prolonges the game in a game that is criticised for beeing to long already.

On a more sweeping note i am very sceptical when risk managment for uninformed decision making is envoked to often, because it justifies potentially everything, even broken or detremental effects to the game. For me dealing with an unknown hand is enough of a worry. At least i have to eat whats in his or her hand anywhere i attack. So i wont end up in a situation where i know i won or lost the game by virtue of attacking the wrong facedown card. If more guess heavy games is what does it for you than we just like different stuff. In the end, even if you know all that might happen, the action you derive will always be at least a little bit of a gamble with more and less favorable outcomes.

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Getting rid of the LCG model is the way to go.

sell a new fixed core game every two years and supplement that with quarterly releases in randomized packs.

focus on sealed and constructed, jack up prize options for stores.

regular storyline tournaments at the store level (nothing crazy just simple things).

sell tie in products like sleeves and boxes and such

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1 hour ago, NathaninVic said:

Getting rid of the LCG model is the way to go.

sell a new fixed core game every two years and supplement that with quarterly releases in randomized packs.

focus on sealed and constructed, jack up prize options for stores.

regular storyline tournaments at the store level (nothing crazy just simple things).

sell tie in products like sleeves and boxes and such

Randomised packs?  Are you wanting to go back to the CCG model?  Where it was important that you had enough money to buy enough random packs to get the cards you needed for your deck?  IMHO, that is a step backwards.

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I think the LCG model is fine except for the fact that they quickly become unapproachable for new players.  That's the real issue.  Other than that the monthly pack format was fine and I don't really wanna see the return to random distribution.  I do think FFG is learning and adapting.  Things like Skirmish mode, marvel champions hero packs, the AH intro packs are all attempts to bridge the gap.

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On 6/27/2020 at 1:23 AM, Tonbo Karasu said:

Randomised packs?  Are you wanting to go back to the CCG model?  Where it was important that you had enough money to buy enough random packs to get the cards you needed for your deck?  IMHO, that is a step backwards.

Yes.

if you are a clan focused player you will likely only ever use one or two cards from the current Dynasty packs.

Buying a box upon release under the old model got you basically everything you needed with a bit of trading, and hours of fun via drafting and sealed play. You only use a small percentage of cards from the current arcs of dynasty packs anyways, most of it going unused.

You could still participate in the CCG era without paying heavily if you chose to. A large enough sized community creates a big enough spare cardpool to enable that.

The majority of card gamers prefer the random booster model, the gambling aspect, since LCG's have been put forward I have only seen the pool of card gamers shrink every year until competitive play is all but gone in the various cities I play in.

The people that LCG's appeal to do not foster or create a vibrate and more widely played game, all you have to do is look back at old L5R and the many other ccg's of the past (even with all there flaws). If you miss an expansion you are screwed as reprints and second shipments from Asmodee just never occur (see the many Netrunner snafus and the perpetually out of print LotR stuff, much of which is essential).

In a city of ardent L5R fans, were we have always had consistently 15-30 players during the CCG days it is almost impossible to get a turn out of more than 3 for any LCG as releases, tournaments, pack cracking, and rewards ate virtually non existent with the LCG's. As everything is fixed there is no incentive or risk to playing, the card pool is smaller, and there is less innovation.

Having played and collected every LCG made by this company and others and seeing them all fail widely I would go back to the old CCG mode anyday, because atleast people played and showed up regulary when that was a thing.

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On 6/27/2020 at 1:58 PM, phillos said:

I think the LCG model is fine except for the fact that they quickly become unapproachable for new players.  That's the real issue.  Other than that the monthly pack format was fine and I don't really wanna see the return to random distribution.  I do think FFG is learning and adapting.  Things like Skirmish mode, marvel champions hero packs, the AH intro packs are all attempts to bridge the gap.

Aside from the painful buy in if you are a late adopter, is that LCG's are marketed to a mainly seperate crowd than traditional ccg players, hence the dwindling and nonexisting communities  around the world. 

If FFG wants to create a competitive and actively playing community thr LCG mode just doesn't support that with their current products (Netrunner beimg the only one that came close), I can't imagine they are making a profitable return on L5R compared to IP intense things like Marvel, Middle Earth, or Star Wars.

As I don't believe or see good sales from L5R as an LCG (or other lines of it really), I wonder how long it will even last. 

Games with better and more valuable IP have been cancelled by them before, ones that had better sale numbers, I worry L5R will disappear entirely within 5 years....

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2 hours ago, NathaninVic said:

Yes.

if you are a clan focused player you will likely only ever use one or two cards from the current Dynasty packs.

Buying a box upon release under the old model got you basically everything you needed with a bit of trading, and hours of fun via drafting and sealed play. You only use a small percentage of cards from the current arcs of dynasty packs anyways, most of it going unused.

You could still participate in the CCG era without paying heavily if you chose to. A large enough sized community creates a big enough spare cardpool to enable that.

The majority of card gamers prefer the random booster model, the gambling aspect, since LCG's have been put forward I have only seen the pool of card gamers shrink every year until competitive play is all but gone in the various cities I play in.

The people that LCG's appeal to do not foster or create a vibrate and more widely played game, all you have to do is look back at old L5R and the many other ccg's of the past (even with all there flaws). If you miss an expansion you are screwed as reprints and second shipments from Asmodee just never occur (see the many Netrunner snafus and the perpetually out of print LotR stuff, much of which is essential).

In a city of ardent L5R fans, were we have always had consistently 15-30 players during the CCG days it is almost impossible to get a turn out of more than 3 for any LCG as releases, tournaments, pack cracking, and rewards ate virtually non existent with the LCG's. As everything is fixed there is no incentive or risk to playing, the card pool is smaller, and there is less innovation.

Having played and collected every LCG made by this company and others and seeing them all fail widely I would go back to the old CCG mode anyday, because atleast people played and showed up regulary when that was a thing.

Bit of a fallacy here. 

Yes, you could play for "free" if your local scene was willing to take pity on you and just give you cards, but the same can happen in the LCG if your locals are focused on a single clan as you can split packs and only take the cards needed for your faction.  And that person playing for free is only a body sitting at the tables but isn't' actually contributing anything to the community beyond that being a warm body.  They aren't supporting the store that is bringing product in and supplying play space they are literally just a body for the other players to punching bag against.

CCG gives the illusion of being cheaper, but that is just it, an illusion.  The buy in for a single cycle costs $89.70 plus tax and gets you a play set of that cycle.  You now have every option from that set and there is no need for rare chasing or secondary market hunting.   A single booster box cost you roughly the same and you are now left with hunting for cards to finish your deck by trading and secondary market purchases and that is likely only going to get you 2 or 3 decks out of the process (and even that is just a fun deck as I've never seen a magic deck that was limited to only 1 expansion that wasn't just a for lol's deck).  I know you'll say that you have to multiply that by the cost of each cycle, but no player has to buy the complete cycle in one go, you can very easily tinker on the deck building sites to figure out what packs you need and then just go out to buy those packs initially and then over time build the rest of your collection. 

Was there a bigger community at your store for the CCG then LCG maybe, but that is just anecdotal proof from your store, in my local scene we went from having a non-existent CCG scene to an active one that was supporting regular play at 4 different stores (between weekly meetups and monthly tournaments) as a direct counter.  **** we still have an active Netrunner community running that has 10-20 regulars coming out for a dead game.  The only thing that kills a game is whether you have a community that is willing to rally around it and from what you've described your communities issue wasn't that they liked the old game more, its that most of your players sound like they were cheap and wanted someone else to carry the frate for them.

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I mean I've gone to the trouble to set up a draft set from my collection (and aside from asking players to bring their own spare Good Omens and Wandering Ronin I was the only one who had to put any effort into it) and you know what we've had plenty of fun playing with it. 

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Total full set buy in (up to end of Cycle 4) at MSRP you are looking at $698.20 plus tax, and a more reasonable cost to build a single competitive deck if you were staying clan focused and buying selective packs is $200-$250.  That's is the same as saying you bought 2-3 booster boxes and even then you are likely still actively having to hunt for cards after that. 

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2 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

Total full set buy in (up to end of Cycle 4) at MSRP you are looking at $698.20 plus tax, and a more reasonable cost to build a single competitive deck if you were staying clan focused and buying selective packs is $200-$250.  That's is the same as saying you bought 2-3 booster boxes and even then you are likely still actively having to hunt for cards after that. 

That would buy you 4 Booster boxes, maybe 5 if you get the discounted rate.

Well worth it when you add in the hours spent drafting and playing sealed.

Hunting down cards and spending more money on the game is actually good for the game's overall health and engagement. I know some people don't like that, or to be very frugal with their spendings but that does harm a game in the long run. With L5R being so much cheaper all things considered one would expect their to be alot more player's when it is the opposite.

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