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Memorare

Can we talk about Iden?

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My hope's for TTS was (mostly) joking, hence the Salt 100 bit. Mea culpa if it seemed overly salty. Tho that joke aside, I'm not sure it's good for the game or helps speedy play. But that's all a separate discussion, and my feeling is based on anecdotal evidence at best. Slow play is the devil.

I 100% am aware that the gun line is nothing new, it's just amazing they made an addition that makes it even better and more efficient. 

The reality is if Iden was 15-25points more expensive she would still be taken and just as good. Game breaking or not, salt or not. That's not good game design. A character shouldn't be 20% off on costing. 

Oh he's enjoying Iden. The monster (I know he'll read this) heh

I guess the issue isn't just about enjoyable tho. It's about health of the game and design. Legion seems to have so many of the issues of Xwing 1.0. Kinda worrying. 

Edited by Memorare

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4 hours ago, Memorare said:

My hope's for TTS was (mostly) joking, hence the Salt 100 bit. Mea culpa if it seemed overly salty. Tho that joke aside, I'm not sure it's good for the game or helps speedy play. But that's all a separate discussion, and my feeling is based on anecdotal evidence at best. Slow play is the devil.

I 100% am aware that the gun line is nothing new, it's just amazing they made an addition that makes it even better and more efficient. 

The reality is if Iden was 15-25points more expensive she would still be taken and just as good. Game breaking or not, salt or not. That's not good game design. A character shouldn't be 20% off on costing. 

Oh he's enjoying Iden. The monster (I know he'll read this) heh

I guess the issue isn't just about enjoyable tho. It's about health of the game and design. Legion seems to have so many of the issues of Xwing 1.0. Kinda worrying. 

I really don't understand what you're talking about. Slow-play doesn't happen because of or more on TTS. TTS games are significantly shorter. No one who has ever stated "TTS doesn't count" has ever been able to give a legitimate reason that can't be shot down with the most basic reasoning skills. The reality is that it boils down to the fact that they don't like it and possibly their limited experience (matched with their biases) doesn't match what the larger sample size of TTS states (people often don't like statistics and actual numbers for this exact reason).

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4 hours ago, Memorare said:

The reality is if Iden was 15-25points more expensive she would still be taken and just as good. Game breaking or not, salt or not. That's not good game design. A character shouldn't be 20% off on costing. 

What reality are you thinking of? I'm finding it hard to get her into some of my lists at 130, I even drop her droid in some lists to save points. At 15-25 more she'd never be used.

Again I ask you why do you think she needs such an increase? She's 12 more points than a unit of death troopers, shoots 2r 1b 2w compaired to their 2r 4b 1w, her one and two pips are similar to death troopers usung the gernade launcher, which they can do every turn they're in range. I'll grant you her 3 pip is good, but that's covered by her higher points cost. Imperial gunlines with multiple death trooper lists aren't unheard of, if your not playing the mission and on an open field of course you're going to loose to it.

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7 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

I understand if you don't like using TTS (I don't like playing online too much either), nobody forces you to. But wishing that it gets deleted and hence taking it away from others who are enjoying it is plain being a ****.

I understand during the pandemic, it was the only way for a lot of people to play the game, but it is not something sanctioned by FFG/Disney. TTS is piracy. If FFG/Disney ever comes out and endorses the game, then a different perspective will be required.

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1 hour ago, arnoldrew said:

I really don't understand what you're talking about. Slow-play doesn't happen because of or more on TTS. TTS games are significantly shorter. No one who has ever stated "TTS doesn't count" has ever been able to give a legitimate reason that can't be shot down with the most basic reasoning skills. The reality is that it boils down to the fact that they don't like it and possibly their limited experience (matched with their biases) doesn't match what the larger sample size of TTS states (people often don't like statistics and actual numbers for this exact reason).

You can't see where others are coming from, so at this point it is an agree to disagree scenario. But your opinion is just that, an opinion.

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On 7/8/2020 at 6:04 AM, arnoldrew said:

I really don't understand what you're talking about. Slow-play doesn't happen because of or more on TTS. TTS games are significantly shorter. No one who has ever stated "TTS doesn't count" has ever been able to give a legitimate reason that can't be shot down with the most basic reasoning skills. The reality is that it boils down to the fact that they don't like it and possibly their limited experience (matched with their biases) doesn't match what the larger sample size of TTS states (people often don't like statistics and actual numbers for this exact reason).

.............

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Very interesting to see the amount of dislike for TTS. I would never play on it since you know miniature game, but I cannot seen now it is not helpful to the community covid or no. 

I come from weeb background so I guess I have a different point of view. Anything to expand the fanbase is good, no matter how shite it is. I have games that I will never play the sequel to (**** I am still waiting for like 3 Fire Emblems!!). So if TTS can keep this game growing I will take that devil's bargain every time.

On 7/8/2020 at 3:44 AM, Memorare said:

It's about health of the game and design. Legion seems to have so many of the issues of Xwing 1.0. Kinda worrying. 

Preach! The problem with Legion is that a lot of the Xwing 1.0 issues seemed to have been with the game at start (with others creeping in). Putting points on the cards and refusing to have frequent updates are the original sins of the game. Throw in some crazy power creep and troubling meta signs and it really does feel like Legion will just make every mistake X-wing has done until they have to reboot.

Is it fair to continue to compare this game to X-wing? Properly not. But man is it hard not complain about Legion when all of these issues feel like they should have easily been avoided.

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@RyantheFett I know I really enjoy TTS for xwing. I haven’t done legion on it (don’t even know what module is needed). My only beef with tts is when folks know what’s coming they “solve” the new units as good or bad and what not before any of us get to play with them. At least in xwing they don’t drop costs until physical product is here and then we get to find out.

Maybe if they just hid costs on previews for Legion it would be better?

As far as the fact that this game is made by the same publishers as xwing, I think the comparison is fair. There are even designers who have worked on both. Legion is making some of the same mistakes as xwing: some units are both for an upgrade card (less so now that card pack is out) and some units are just flat out better than the older ones

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32 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

My only beef with tts is when folks know what’s coming they “solve” the new units as good or bad and what not before any of us get to play with them. At least in xwing they don’t drop costs until physical product is here and then we get to find out.

Maybe if they just hid costs on previews for Legion it would be better?

As far as the fact that this game is made by the same publishers as xwing, I think the comparison is fair. There are even designers who have worked on both. Legion is making some of the same mistakes as xwing: some units are both for an upgrade card (less so now that card pack is out) and some units are just flat out better than the older ones

What an interesting take on the matter. Never really thought about the fact that the meta may be already set for the next two months if you don't play TTS. Listen to any of the podcast and everything is solved and they are ready for the next wave. Hiding points may work.............. or you know never putting points on cards since they may change in the future!!!!!

As for upgrade cards I really thought about throwing that in there as a positive, but I do not remember if X-wing did it first lol.

4 minutes ago, Thraug said:

FFG  Needs to have more frequent point changes. Once a year is ridiculous. One wrong change and we have a year's broken game.

For the life of me I will never understand their thought process on points and their reluctance to do any adjustments. The 6 months for Xwing 2.0 just seems right. And I am not saying huge changes every time, just a few points on one or two units would do wonders. The poor Airspeeder comes to mind and the horror show of the tauntaun/shores................. rr maybe the crazy power keep is what keeping those units in check lol.

The pdf points change also feels like a real rush job to fix an issue they never thought they would have? I know FFG hates their app, but I feel like a middle ground could have been found (I mean the points are online now anyway)? Maybe support the community sites like Tabletop Admiral? Pretty sure almost everyone uses sites like that anyway, FFG should show them some love.

Just worrying to not see Legion get support it deserves and looking closer to Armada or X-wing 1.0.

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1 hour ago, ScummyRebel said:

My only beef with tts is when folks know what’s coming they “solve” the new units as good or bad and what not before any of us get to play with them.

Honestly I don't understand why this is an issue.  Either you care what's good, and now you know what you should or should not buy, or you don't care just want to use what you like, in which case why does it matter what is and isn't "meta"?

1 hour ago, Thraug said:

FFG  Needs to have more frequent point changes. Once a year is ridiculous. One wrong change and we have a year's broken game.

This is absolutely true.  They're already doing two RRG updates per year, why not do points changes in both updates?  Now, I do feel that rules changes to bring units more into line are generally preferable, but sometimes that's just not an option/less straightforward that just changing the points value.

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25 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

Honestly I don't understand why this is an issue.  Either you care what's good, and now you know what you should or should not buy, or you don't care just want to use what you like, in which case why does it matter what is and isn't "meta"?

I guess for me it’s a matter of prioritization — in the case of “I like this, AND the experts decide it’s good”, you basically have to get it immediately on release or else you won’t have one at all (source: the units I mentioned before out of stock in perpetuity).

If it’s something I don’t want to paint then I flat out won’t buy it, and if it goes out of stock I don’t care.

OTOH, if “the experts” say “oh that unit is garbage” then I can pick it up either on sale, or when I have bandwidth in my painting queue to go directly to putting it on the paint table.

If the experts don’t get points until release, my decision is based more on my own queue ability right now plus desire, as opposed to the “get now or forever give up the rights to it” because few would rush to buy max quantities of an untested or unknown thing.

 

 

Edited by ScummyRebel

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1 hour ago, Lochlan said:

This is absolutely true.  They're already doing two RRG updates per year, why not do points changes in both updates?  Now, I do feel that rules changes to bring units more into line are generally preferable, but sometimes that's just not an option/less straightforward that just changing the points value.

This, they did a good job nerfing shoretroopes and tauntauns with the last update. Now if only we could get some points adjustments to the under preforming units, looking at you dewback, and something else for the t-47...

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Just a friendly reminder for everyone, legion has only been out for about 2.25 years, and the last 6 months have been mostly a wash do to covid 19. I wouldn’t say they’ve done a bad job, in that time period they have had at least 5 rule reference updates, one major point change, and a significant los and tournament rule update.

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40 minutes ago, Shadowhawk252 said:

Just a friendly reminder for everyone, legion has only been out for about 2.25 years, and the last 6 months have been mostly a wash do to covid 19. I wouldn’t say they’ve done a bad job, in that time period they have had at least 5 rule reference updates, one major point change, and a significant los and tournament rule update.

Thing is most of these issues have nothing to do with covid. Rebalances and such... you can do that from your couch. 

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