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Boom Owl

What would X-Wing be like with a 4 Ship Minimum Requirement?

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3 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

The devs seem to certainly encourage it.

Minus Boba+1 and Whisper/Rexler/RAC+1. 

...ReyPoe doesn't count. 

Neither does Sunny&Cher.

Or LukeWedge. 

Or DashRoark (r.i.p.)

Not sure what you mean. More than half is obviously not everyone, otherwise I'd have said everyone :D 

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51 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

What?

You don't like the thought of a game which was designed to promote creative freedom in a competitive environment reducing that creative bubble down to an extremely confined creative bubble?  

You can have any choice you like! 

As long as it's 4-8 ships within one of seven factions and a somewhat arbitrarily vetted pool of pilots and upgrades between the months of June 2020 and January 2021 during the reasonable hours of 10:25 AM and 11:47 PM and........

............

I'm not even sure who you're poking.  ;)

All of these hypothetical threads are "I don't like thing, what if thing didn't exist" to me.  

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I would welcome this change. This also isn't that far outside the realm of possibility since FFG already enforces a 2-ship minimum in squad building, so they could just change one number in the tournament rules from 2 to 4 and done. 

Aces would be something that's special in a list, not just something you spam. You can still bring 2 aces in a list, but it would be alongside 2 filler ships, just like Republic was already doing with 2 Jedi + 2 V-19. Ace + miniswarm is already a successful archetype. 

Things like Boba would be way less of a problem if you had to bring 3 other ships along with it instead of just bringing another super ace or super battleship.

Points fortressing would be way less of a problem since you can't just bring 2 super hard to hit ships. 

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On 6/22/2020 at 11:38 AM, Bucknife said:

...managing the matchup curve. 

Washing everything out to flatten the matchup curve would kill the game for me. 

I like having great advantages in certain matches at the cost of a steep climb in others. 

...Just not impossibly steep. 

That's the tricky part of 2-8 ships. 

@Boom Owl, @GreenDragoon

I know it's a little deflective away from OP, but assuming we remain at 2-8 ship lists in standard X-Wing, how would you guys limit the matchup curve to keep games between the poles (2 ships VS 8), feel like they're not auto-wins for either side? 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Bucknife said:

@Boom Owl, @GreenDragoon

I know it's a little deflective away from OP, but assuming we remain at 2-8 ship lists in standard X-Wing, how would you guys limit the matchup curve to keep games between the poles (2 ships VS 8), feel like they're not auto-wins for either side? 

 

I think 2-8 will no question remain the standard ( anything else including the topic of this thread would strictly be alt-format type stuff ). 

Not 100% sure what matchup curve means or that my opinion matters. But you asked so.....here are words

  • My sense is that alot of "not CIS" things that are trying to tech to beat Boba end up punting slightly to CIS in the process.
  • Using hyper as an example 2 ship Boba+ is the Alpha Dog gate keeper and the more likely to see or popular list
  • CIS Swarm is the Alpha Dog swarm that can deal with Boba but is much less popular.
  • So players lean towards teching for Boba and make their matchup with CIS worse in the process. 
  • Teching to beat CIS Swarm is almost trivial but also for some players perceived as a waste of time as its alot less common, teching to beat Boba at the same time...more difficult

My personal opinion (that people don't have to agree with) is that if I had to choose a "ship count" to be a Top Tier meta list I would always choose the higher ship count archetype since there is usually a longer list of lists/archetypes that are less dependent on specific initiatives and bids or max ship count totals to deal with it. 

Most important thing in my mind is that Pre-Movement adjustment mechanics always be "bad" and that the mix of High Init/Mobility/Durability always airs on the side one of those 3 being "bad". Pre-movement mechanics specifically have never made X-Wing better or more interesting when accessible at high init, not once. They warp far to much around them. Without those pieces the best 2 ship lists tend to become 2 Ship Alpha Strikes which are far easier for the field to deal with though not necessarily more fun to play against which matters on some level probably. ( Dash Rorak, 2x Infiltrators etc.). 

Boba Matchups: Good against everything besides CIS and i6 things which its only decent against

F9YCHt6.png
 

TFD Matchups: Good against Boba and every "Ace" list besides Kylo lists ( who is basically CIS Kryptonite and always has been) 

vfroWTW.png

I am for sure Biased on this. Something I am absolutely willing to admit. I think X-Wing is more interesting/diverse and more fun for more players and factions at higher average ship counts. A 4 ship minimum is a pretty blunt unncessary way to do that, but there other ways to get there via points and bans etc. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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Posted (edited)

New Idea: X-Wing Squadrons style.

Every squad must have exactly 5 ships. You want a falcon? Better be prepared to bring the As and Zs. You want Poe? Get the fireballs ready. Need your Kylo? Kylo+4 is the only way to go. Just have to get your Ani fix? Better bring 4 golds.

Of course, 40 points is a fantastic baseline price. Plenty of good budget ships to get in there, such as: Missile A-Wings, Most Y-Wings, cheapest X-WIngs, good Saber Interceptors, Stocky bombers, low-end gunboats, etc.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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On 6/21/2020 at 2:55 PM, Boom Owl said:

What would the best list(s) be in each faction for extended or hyper assuming unchanged points? What impact would it have on the meta? Would any archetype or faction be disproportionately favored by the restriction? Would it be more fun?

I've been running a two-ace two generic Imperial archetype for quite some time. I usually use Strikers as my generics since they have a good build options (naked or with bombs), block and flank well, and sometimes survive the first encounter with high initiative enemies. Then slap in any two aces that fit (I often run Maarek with another ace, e.g. Whisper, Vader, etc) and I've got a solid list. It worked well for me in First Edition as well.

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7 minutes ago, Praetorate of the Empire said:

I've been running a two-ace two generic Imperial archetype for quite some time. I usually use Strikers as my generics since they have a good build options (naked or with bombs), block and flank well, and sometimes survive the first encounter with high initiative enemies. Then slap in any two aces that fit (I often run Maarek with another ace, e.g. Whisper, Vader, etc) and I've got a solid list. It worked well for me in First Edition as well.

Double "Ace" + 2 has tons of cool options. I agree. Luke Wedge BB comes to mind as well. 

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Personally I'm not a huge fan of this notion, but that's because I tend to run really janky 3 ship lists that are either overstuffed with upgrades or feature Dash + 2 of whatever generic I like that day. A 4-ship minimum would be kinda interesting as a house rule for a tournament or just some fun random games, but if you were gonna up the required # of ships for that I'd push it up to 5 ships minimum to really shake up what people bring to the table.

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On 6/25/2020 at 12:18 PM, Hippie Moosen said:

if you were gonna up the required # of ships for that I'd push it up to 5 ships minimum to really shake up what people bring to the table.

Well, then you couldn't really bring Dash at all. At least with a 4-ship minimum you could go DashZZZ or probably DashAAA if you played it right.

I guess it would be possible to still field almost anything, but your list is almost inescapably constrained to 4 of the cheapest generic if you bring any ship worth 80+ points and want some upgrades.

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2 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Well, then you couldn't really bring Dash at all. At least with a 4-ship minimum you could go DashZZZ or probably DashAAA if you played it right.

I guess it would be possible to still field almost anything, but your list is almost inescapably constrained to 4 of the cheapest generic if you bring any ship worth 80+ points and want some upgrades.

dash + 3 sounds more wholesome than any 2.0 dash list I've ever seen

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, svelok said:

dash + 3 sounds more wholesome than any 2.0 dash list I've ever seen

It's also probably a better list. Dash dies way too easy if it's possible to ignore the rest of the list for a little while. If you can come up with any conceivable way to bring the pain elsewhere, Dash could be playable. After the last adjustment I hoped that would be the case, but it seems otherwise :(.

A little off the title and/or some of the Rebel gunners and he probably could be.

Though I'd personally prefer an alternative YT2400. How soon can we get Mart Mattin in the Sato's Hammer? Something properly canon and more wholesome would be a welcome change.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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Fenn + 3 fang (or 2 + Numb) would be the clear t1 of the format.

Resistance would probably be the faction which gains the most since its 4 ships lists right now are just barely not good enough for imperial aces

Republic a close second since Jedis. Actually they might even be better than resistance beef now that I think about it

rip anything non 8 tie FO

Sloane swarms would also be a pretty serious format staple

Rebels would still have worse beefs than resistance

And obviously droids everywhere

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17 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

rip anything non 8 tie FO

Kylo + 3x SF

Kylo + Vonreg/Holo + 2x FO

18 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Sloane swarms would also be a pretty serious format staple

Already are but not Hyperspace. She needs a bump, bad.

18 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Rebels would still have worse beefs than resistance

Worse beef, worse aces, half-decent filler but not as good as Empire or Republic. What do rebels even do well? Spam X-Wings...

19 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

And obviously droids everywhere

Some things never change

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1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Kylo + 3x SF

Kylo + Vonreg/Holo + 2x FO

Yeah I forgot about kylo vonreg, it could be good. Not sold on kylo +3 sf thought

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Worse beef, worse aces, half-decent filler but not as good as Empire or Republic. What do rebels even do well? Spam X-Wings...

5 xwings is still a worse beef than 4 ships res. And a worse thing than many others

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Some things never change

sadly

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I would really hate this change if it would be more then hypothetical. As I often play 3 ships lists with the most fun and I feel like I also perform better with less ships.

And not only aces, but things luke 2 generic Firespray and nom lumb or things like yv666, lancer and an escape craft I really enjoy.

Also losing lists like double Decimator would make me sad.

Hypothetically if it was a format I think it would see a lot of beef and swarms thrive in the meta and factions that are best at those would rise to the top.

 

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On 6/21/2020 at 5:12 PM, Nyxen said:

To be fair, if there's a really good ace player involved the game usually feels like it has devolved into "I have no right choices" fairly quickly. I'm not saying I agree with the statement, but aces to greater or lesser extent generally feel like the X-Wing equivalent of MTG's Blue, and everyone hates Blue.

Blue sucks.   Draw, go.  Wont let you do anything.

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On 6/26/2020 at 4:53 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

Well, then you couldn't really bring Dash at all. At least with a 4-ship minimum you could go DashZZZ or probably DashAAA if you played it right.

 

Yeah that's why I was leaning towards increasing ship requirements for a specific event or a single night of open play at your preferred LGS. Also my lists that feature Dash are all terrible, but I just really like him and his ship. I think I've got like a 1/10 win-loss ratio with him in 2.0 but that hasn't really stopped me from continuing to try. 

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Just now, Hippie Moosen said:

Also my lists that feature Dash are all terrible, but I just really like him and his ship. I think I've got like a 1/10 win-loss ratio with him in 2.0 but that hasn't really stopped me from continuing to try. 

Pretty much true of the YT-2400 in general. There was a lot of backlash against the redesign of the chassis at release, so he was nuked way out of playability.

It didn't help that a singular broken combo actually made him kinda okay and very NPE upon release (they fixed the combo but people are still convinced that he's too dangerous to be left alive).

I'm just waiting for Mart Mattin and the Sato's Hammer. They can make that okay and not awful.

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