Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Jo Jo

Star Wars: Squadrons

Recommended Posts

Two weeks (give or take) to go.

Found myself thinking about the cross-shaped elephant in the room, also known as the B-Wing.

It's interesting to note that this ship never made the cut in Battlefront 2 either; despite all the updates and content releases, it's yet to be seen.

What do we make of that?¬† Does EA just... not like it for some reason? ūüėā

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

It's interesting to note that this ship never made the cut in Battlefront 2 either; despite all the updates and content releases, it's yet to be seen.

What do we make of that?¬† Does EA just... not like it for some reason? ūüėā

My guess is they probably haven't found a good Imperial equivalent that many of the more casual Star Wars fans would be familiar with. For U, X, Y, and A wings, it's pretty easy to pick ships that are at least comparable from the other side. Better yet everyone who cares about this kinda stuff definitely is at least familiar with Reapers, Interceptors, Bombers, and the classic Tie/ln. The B wing though doesn't seem to have a comparable class of fighter on the Imperial side that isn't under the radar of most people. The Tie X-1, V-1, and the Striker would all probably fly more like Interceptors, so definitely not good matches for the B-wing. The Defender doesn't really match very well either since it would be likely just as durable and heavily armed while also being far more quick and nimble. The Tie/rb might be pretty close, but they are something that a lot of people wouldn't recognize. Heck I didn't even notice them when I saw Solo which is where they were introduced. Then of course there's all the still legends options which are double obscure for not being in any films and also being removed from the canon, so they aren't gonna be big draws for the more casual Star Wars fan either. 

While it is my favorite Rebel Fighter, it's hard to ignore the fact that it's been left out before in other games. It didn't make it into the original Rogue Squadron, but somehow the Tie Interceptor, N-1, Millennium Falcon, and some weird non-canon V-wing design that predates the V-wing we know today all made it in as playable ships. Then of course there's it's omission from all the battlefront games, both pre and post EA. It probably just isn't quite popular enough to be an auto include, and the Y-wing was seen first so it is automatically matched with the Tie Bomber, making it so the B doesn't really have anything to fill it's role on the Imperial side of things.

If this game is successful though, and starts seeing big updates or talk of a sequel, I really hope the B-wing is the first thing they add to the Rebels. How awesome would it be if it had a cockpit gyro button, so you toggle locking the cockpit in place or letting it spin to keep you oriented however you were when you pressed the button last? I just want to jump into the cockpit of one of these things again. It's been a long time since I've played anything that allowed that. 

Edited by Hippie Moosen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Hippie Moosen said:

My guess is they probably haven't found a good Imperial equivalent that many of the more casual Star Wars fans would be familiar with. For U, X, Y, and A wings, it's pretty easy to pick ships that are at least comparable from the other side. Better yet everyone who cares about this kinda stuff definitely is at least familiar with Reapers, Interceptors, Bombers, and the classic Tie/ln. The B wing though doesn't seem to have a comparable class of fighter on the Imperial side that isn't under the radar of most people. The Tie X-1, V-1, and the Striker would all probably fly more like Interceptors, so definitely not good matches for the B-wing. The Defender doesn't really match very well either since it would be likely just as durable and heavily armed while also being far more quick and nimble. The Tie/rb might be pretty close, but they are something that a lot of people wouldn't recognize. Heck I didn't even notice them when I saw Solo which is where they were introduced. Then of course there's all the still legends options which are double obscure for not being in any films and also being removed from the canon, so they aren't gonna be big draws for the more casual Star Wars fan either. 

While it is my favorite Rebel Fighter, it's hard to ignore the fact that it's been left out before in other games. It didn't make it into the original Rogue Squadron, but somehow the Tie Interceptor, N-1, Millennium Falcon, and some weird non-canon V-wing design that predates the V-wing we know today all made it in as playable ships. Then of course there's it's omission from all the battlefront games, both pre and post EA. It probably just isn't quite popular enough to be an auto include, and the Y-wing was seen first so it is automatically matched with the Tie Bomber, making it so the B doesn't really have anything to fill it's role on the Imperial side of things.

If this game is successful though, and starts seeing big updates or talk of a sequel, I really hope the B-wing is the first thing they add to the Rebels. How awesome would it be if it had a cockpit gyro button, so you toggle locking the cockpit in place or letting it spin to keep you oriented however you were when you pressed the button last? I just want to jump into the cockpit of one of these things again. It's been a long time since I've played anything that allowed that. 

There is an Imperial equivalent...

But if you want a TIE, I think new canon is changing a little the role of the TIE Defender, from super-advanced-fighter to a more "balanced" craft, heavy hitting and sturdy, but slower and less manoeuvrable than the TIE Interceptor (and even the TIE Fighter).

In the new mobile game Starfighter Missions, the TIE Defender is considered "slow mobility", just like the TIE Bomber. And yes, the game is canon. This "Disney canon" TIE Defender would be the perfect counterpart for the B-Wing in an "Assault class" of heavy fighters, with two gun "slots". I really hope they are added to the game.

Edited by Odanan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Odanan said:

Has this been added back into the series somewhere? Last I heard they were strictly legends. If that's no longer the case it would be really cool to see it pop up in this game along with the B-wing. 

1 hour ago, Odanan said:

But if you want a TIE, I think new canon is changing a little the role of the TIE Defender, from super-advanced-fighter to a more "balanced" craft, heavy hitting and sturdy, but slower and less manoeuvrable than the TIE Interceptor (and even the TIE Fighter).

 

Huh, I didn't realize they were changing that much about the Defender. Didn't really get that impression from the Rebel's series, but I haven't re-watched it ever so that doesn't really mean much. If this winds up being the B-wings match for the Empire that would be pretty sweet. 

Can't decide which of the two I'd rather see honestly, but either one would be fun to see show up in a game like this.

Edited by Hippie Moosen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Hippie Moosen said:

Huh, I didn't realize they were changing that much about the Defender. Didn't really get that impression from the Rebel's series, but I haven't re-watched it ever so that doesn't really mean much. If this winds up being the B-wings match for the Empire that would be pretty sweet.

It looks like the upgraded "Elite TIE Defender" is the new boogie man. This is good - the regular TIE Defender can feature in more games without totally breaking the balance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/23/2020 at 7:59 PM, Hippie Moosen said:

If this game is successful though, and starts seeing big updates or talk of a sequel, I really hope the B-wing is the first thing they add to the Rebels. How awesome would it be if it had a cockpit gyro button, so you toggle locking the cockpit in place or letting it spin to keep you oriented however you were when you pressed the button last? I just want to jump into the cockpit of one of these things again. It's been a long time since I've played anything that allowed that. 

As much as I would love to see the b-wing, the only problem with it is the asymmetry of the craft.   The ships we have so far don't really seem to take into account the shape - at least what I've seen.   So unless they introduce perfect binding to the shape, the b-wing won't likely be in the game, and that is either a major update, or a sequel.  

On 9/24/2020 at 12:24 PM, Odanan said:

In the new mobile game Starfighter Missions, the TIE Defender is considered "slow mobility", just like the TIE Bomber. And yes, the game is canon. This "Disney canon" TIE Defender would be the perfect counterpart for the B-Wing in an "Assault class" of heavy fighters, with two gun "slots". I really hope they are added to the game

The defender is a tricky thing.   It wasn't manufactured beyond prototypes, and further funding went to the death star.

The TIE heavy/brute could certainly also fit the role of a heavy cannon platform.  But again, it is an asymmetric design which I don't think squadrons takes ship shape into account.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

As much as I would love to see the b-wing, the only problem with it is the asymmetry of the craft.   The ships we have so far don't really seem to take into account the shape - at least what I've seen.   So unless they introduce perfect binding to the shape, the b-wing won't likely be in the game, and that is either a major update, or a sequel.  

With how the cockpit stabilization ring functions I don't see the B-Wing being added either. The center of mass is in the engines which means when ever it rolls the cockpit holds a relative horizontal while changing position radially. This can really mess with a person's sense of balance due to the visual divergence from what is intuitive for someone "flying" a ship. Roll while changing pitch and/or yaw at the same time and you have an even better recipie for a vomit inducing experience.

Edited by Hiemfire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

 Roll while changing pitch and/or yaw at the same time and you have an even better recipie for a vomit inducing experience.

Yesssss give us the vomit!

Flying a Starfighter should be a truly unique and memorable experience.  What's more memorable than blowing chunks all over the living room carpet?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn't the issue with a B-wing be more one of easily confusing the pilot of where the bulk of the ship is and causing a lot of collision issues? From the cockpit view it is going to be the same as every other ship. It seems to me that would not be any more or less vomit inducing than a TIE !or whatever. 

But you are going to be constantly shifting how much input is needed for any change of direction since the engines are moving about the ship. The cockpit view does not change the pilots left or right or up or down but the bulk of the ship may be in a different "up" since your last up input. If you are on the bottom of the ship and think you can go under something but can't because the blades are over your head it would make a mess.

I think the issue would be if positive pitch for example was dependent on ship "up" versus the up in the view from the cockpit. If you were constantly shifting between needing yaw when want to pitch and so on no one would be able to fly the thing. You would crash before you could barf.

And you would likely need a way to shift where the bulk of the ship was rotated. At the very least some indicator of that would need to be on the view of the console and thus a big change from The other ships in the game. The controller might not have enough inputs for that additional control of the ship. That seems a more likely cause of not including the B-wing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

And you would likely need a way to shift where the bulk of the ship was rotated. At the very least some indicator of that would need to be on the view of the console and thus a big change from The other ships in the game. The controller might not have enough inputs for that additional control of the ship. That seems a more likely cause of not including the B-wing.

Nit sure if we're creating unnecessary problems for ourselves with this line of discussion.  I'm pretty sure many aspects of the B-Wing's flying style could be automated, meaning it would be more of a matter of getting the hang of how it flies than micromanaging it's rotation.

And if a standard game controller can cope with flight in Elite: Dangerous, I'm pretty sure it can cope with a B-Wing!¬† ūüėā

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

And you would likely need a way to shift where the bulk of the ship was rotated. At the very least some indicator of that would need to be on the view of the console and thus a big change from The other ships in the game. The controller might not have enough inputs for that additional control of the ship. That seems a more likely cause of not including the B-wing.

I think you're missing how the B-Wing rotates when it rolls, pitches and yaws. It's center of rotation isn't centered on the cockpit. It is centered on the center of mass of the ship, which is the engine cluster. The cockpit is offset from this by about 1/4th the ship's overall "width". Think of it like sitting sideways in the cab of a ferris wheel, but with less rocking. The center of rotation is the center of the wheel. When the B-Wing rolls the pilot's position, and what they see, shifts like the position of the ferris wheel cab occupant's would. When the B-Wing pitches (nose up or down) it does so in the same manner as you would tilt a ferris wheel. Yaw (left or right rotation) is similar.

Lets say the cockpit horizontal is inline with the "width" of the ship, as it is with the TIE/Sa, and place the B-Wing's cockpit on the same side of the ship as well (right side). Pitch is a simple "nose up", "nose down". Left yaw shifts the cockpit forwards and left, Right yaw backwards and left. With the B-Wing's cockpit on the left side and cockpit horizontal inline with the width of the fighter, Left yaw shifts the cockpit backwards and right, Right Yaw forwards and right.

Now lets do cockpit horizontal perpendicular to the width of the fighter, assuming that the controls maintain relative to the pilot and not to the center of rotation (something aeronautic software can do easily) since this would be far less confusing to a pilot (forwards on the stick would remain pitch down, back pitch up, etc as opposed to constantly changing what input would be required to rotate the ship a certain way), starting with the bulk of the fighter being "below" the cockpit as it is in the XWTMG 1.0 B-Wings. Pitch up shifts the cockpit backwards and down, pitch down shifts it forwards and down. Left yaw and Right yaw are now simple turns. With the bulk of the fighter "above" the cockpit yaw stays the same as before but pitch up now moves the cockpit forwards and up, and pitch down backwards and up.

You got those so far? :) 

45 deg off perpendicular/parallel is next and where I'm stopping (for Pitch and Yaw). Here there are 4 possible positions of the bulk of the ship relative to the cockpit horizontal. "above"/left, "above"/right, "below"/left and "below"/right

Bulk "above"/left:

  • Pitch up = Cockpit moves forwards and up.
  • Pitch down = Cockpit moves backwards and up.
  • Yaw left = Cockpit moves forwards and left.
  • Yaw right = Cockpit moves backwards and left.

Bulk "above"/right:

  • Pitch up = Cockpit moves forwards and up.
  • Pitch down = Cockpit moves backwards and up.
  • Yaw left = Cockpit moves backwards¬†and right.
  • Yaw right = Cockpit moves forwards and right.

Bulk "below"/left:

  • Pitch up = Cockpit moves backwards and down.
  • Pitch down = Cockpit moves forwards and down.
  • Yaw left = Cockpit moves forwards and left.
  • Yaw right = Cockpit moves backwards and left.

 

Bulk "below"/right:

  • Pitch up = Cockpit moves backwards and down.
  • Pitch down = Cockpit moves forwards and down.
  • Yaw left = Cockpit moves backwards and right.
  • Yaw right = Cockpit moves forwards and right.

 

All of that is without combining Pitch, Yaw and Roll into one movement...

Remember how a B-Wing's cockpit moves like a ferris wheel cab when the fighter rolls? Imagine yourself in the cockpit of a B-Wing. The engine cluster is on your left and you're beginning an attack run to knock out a power feed or anti-fighter turret. You roll clockwise while pitching down and pulling left.

Do you see why I think the B-Wing will not be added to Squadrons now? The ship should be called the Vomit-Wing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How I understand what you are saying is the cockpit moves off its present access/present cockpit "zero" both in a manner consistent with the input as well as in an additional manner based on whether or not there is a movement of the rest of the ship "around" the cockpit. Or perhaps even regardless of any rotation of the bulk of the ship. 

I will accept that plus as I lack sufficient more knowledge to contest it and also you have clearly though more about than I.

I will say it seems to me to defeat the point of the design.  My thinking was that you flew the ship with only pitch and yaw "arcade flight controls" style while computer controlled the rotation as next with occasional pilot input.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't know if this has been posted earlier and can't be bothered to check, but last week's updates say HOTAS support on consoles is confirmed from launch via a day one patch.

Details have also been shared on the multiplayer progression system as well, including ranks, daily challenges and rotating 8-week Operations competitive seasons.

Your final 120 hour countdown is underway, pilots...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay @Hiemfire, you put a lot thought into the real world flying mechanics, which is awesome.     But I'm going to offer two alternate methods, which is not realistic, but could work as a work around.  I don't think it will happen because the binding box would Be an odd shape, and currently ship shape means very little unfortunately.   It would be awesome if there were ships that could fly where others can't follow.   However, your assessment seems to be wring with how the b-wing flies.   Check out Hera flying it, at 1:29 in particular, in the below video

Okay, so the method is this: ¬† Keep everything moving faceted to¬†pilots view, while unrealistic, it avoids the vomit Inducing movement. ¬† Much like many have wanted with the x-wing, which is to have the s-foils close when power is put full into movement, you could do a similar thing here. ¬† As well as having the chassis of the b-wing on the opposite side of where the ship is turning. ¬†So when a player banks left, ¬†the body and binding box for attacking it are on the right. ¬† This would make for a ship that is difficult to target for new players I think, as it‚Äôs hit location will be ‚Äėtwitchy‚Äô, but experiences pilots will recognize the tell of direction and can thus tell where the ship is going. ¬†¬†
If attacks all converge in the centre of the cockpit view, it will be seen as having the beams/bolts come from different areas. 

The pros to this is it avoids movement that will make the pilot nauseous, which seems to be cannon
 
The cons are the movement is unrealistic, but as Stat Wars has unrealistic combat anyway, it can be hand waved, as it fits the setting.   
the biggest issue is that the rigging, animation, and coding are going to be complex, and the trade off isn't necessarily worth it - likely why the B-wing wasn't put into the game.  It requires a lot of work, so much that it should be a paid DLC if anything.  
 

The second method, makes a lot more sense.   It as well Going to require lots of animating, rigging, and coding to work, but it won't be as intensive. 
Basically, you limit positions to the directions in the d-pad: up, down, left and right, and you can set the position you want.   Again, all flying seems to be putting the cockpit in an unchanging position.   So, it can be done like that as that IS how the ship flies - again, no vomit, and flies like any fighter.

The major problem is of course the binding box.   I do keep harping in this, but the area ships can fly through is seemingly all the same and doesn't take actual shape into account a TIE fighter can this squeeze/fly through the same space as an a-wing.  


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Your final 120 hour countdown is underway, pilots...

It's in my kart. As much as I want the game, I will keep my promise to never pre-order anything again. I will buy it only after the reviews and after what you guys say about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Odanan said:

It's in my kart. As much as I want the game, I will keep my promise to never pre-order anything again. I will buy it only after the reviews and after what you guys say about it.

Will link to the reviews as soon as they start to appear.

Not that I really trust reviews any way, ever since IGN's hitjob on Alien: Isolation...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Odanan said:

BTW, you guys forget the TIE Bomber has an offset cockpit too...

TIE bomber's cockpit is locked into the ship's frame and does not rotate independently meaning the characteristics of what happens when the pilot pitches and yaws do not change, even while in a roll. The B-Wing's cockpit rotates to maintain a preset horizontal so those change for the pilot.

3 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

1:29 in particular

1. That is what people assume B-wing's fly like. Without some sort of artificial mass generator that would mimic the entire mass of the rest of the b-wing on the opposite side of the cockpit from the hull it wouldn't fly that way.

2. I feel sorry for whom ever was in the gunner seat (the pod on the prototype's opposite fin from where the cockpit is is for a gunner), especially with as fast as the hull was swinging around the cockpit...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...