Augur or Rite of Seeking on clueless location: legal?

[FireBones 2]

Wanted to ask whether this topic has been fleshed out somewhere.

Here is the issue: the Rules Reference implicitly creates a dichotomy between basic actions and abilities that are on cards. In particular, any triggered ability must have the potential to change the game state to be triggered, and the determination as to whether it changes the game state must not include:

• The costs for triggering the ability
• Interactions between it and other cards

[See triggered ability subsection on Ability section in Rules Reference.]

However, basic actions are not subject to this limitation. So it is okay to investigate a location that has no clues. For example, if you need to trigger Scavenging or exercise Drawing Thin.

But what about a card whose ability is itself a basic action?

For example, say you wanted to use Rite of Seeking to investigate a clueless location (e.g., you are playing a Recycling Grotesque Statue deck as Jim and need to get your statue back). I think that for Rite of Seeking you can do it because of the special bit about losing your remaining actions if a special chaos token is drawn. So even though the success or failure of the test cannot change the game state, there is the potential for the game state to be changed based on the revelation of a special token.

But what about someone who has Augur out and wants to use the Investigate ability on that card (imagine that Zeal and Hope are not in the discard pile, so the player cannot shuffle him into his deck to pull out another cat). If there are no clues on the location, it seems that this ability does not have the ability to alter game state, so it sounds like you cannot do it.... unless a special ruling has been made that says basic actions printed on a card can be executed even if there is no potential to change game state because they are still basic actions. (It is true that these abilities count both as basic actions and as triggered abilities.)

 

[Henryillusion 11]

In your example you are talking about a "Recycling Grotesque Statue" deck, so I guess the card you're talking about is Scavenging. I just looked on ArkhamDB and the FAQ answers your question: https://arkhamdb.com/card/01073

[Allonym 954]

"Can I investigate a location with no clues on it?" is the very first question in the FAQ part of the official FAQ/errata.

In short, the answer is yes. And there's no reason that it being a basic action or not would matter. The designers have indicated that making a skill test inherently has the potential to change the game state. With Augur, the part allowing you to bring another cat into play isn't part of the cost of the ability so it inherently is changing the game state.

Edited June 7 by Allonym

[FireBones 2]

On 6/7/2020 at 1:06 AM, Henryillusion said:

In your example you are talking about a "Recycling Grotesque Statue" deck, so I guess the card you're talking about is Scavenging. I just looked on ArkhamDB and the FAQ answers your question: https://arkhamdb.com/card/01073

No it does not. The FAQ refers to the basic action of Investigate. 

I've already indicated why a card ability would be treated differently because card abilities are subject to the rule that they must have the potential to alter game state.

[FireBones 2]

On 6/7/2020 at 5:42 AM, Allonym said:

"Can I investigate a location with no clues on it?" is the very first question in the FAQ part of the official FAQ/errata.

In short, the answer is yes. And there's no reason that it being a basic action or not would matter. The designers have indicated that making a skill test inherently has the potential to change the game state. With Augur, the part allowing you to bring another cat into play isn't part of the cost of the ability so it inherently is changing the game state.

Where have the developers indicated that making a skill test inherently has the potential to change the game state?

And of course being a basic action or not matters because a the rules reference states unequivocally All triggered abilities are governed by the following rules:

• A triggered abilities on a card  player controls are optionally triggered (or not) by that player at the appropriate timing moment, as indicated by the ability.
• A triggered ability can only be initiated if its effect has the potential to change the game state and its cost (if any) has the potential to be pain in full, taking active cost modifiers into account. This potential is assessed without taking into account the consequences of the cost payment or any other ability interactions.

So----unlike basic actions---you cannot trigger an ability that does not have the potential to change the game state, and changes to the game state that rely on interactions with other cards or payment for the ability do not count.

With Augur, you can only bring another cat into play if that cat is in your discard pile. In my example I stipulated that the other cats are not in your discard pile.

 

[Henryillusion 11]

I just read this post on the BGG.

 

[Allonym 954]

7 hours ago, FireBones said:

Where have the developers indicated that making a skill test inherently has the potential to change the game state?

And of course being a basic action or not matters because a the rules reference states unequivocally All triggered abilities are governed by the following rules:

• A triggered abilities on a card  player controls are optionally triggered (or not) by that player at the appropriate timing moment, as indicated by the ability.
• A triggered ability can only be initiated if its effect has the potential to change the game state and its cost (if any) has the potential to be pain in full, taking active cost modifiers into account. This potential is assessed without taking into account the consequences of the cost payment or any other ability interactions.

So----unlike basic actions---you cannot trigger an ability that does not have the potential to change the game state, and changes to the game state that rely on interactions with other cards or payment for the ability do not count.

With Augur, you can only bring another cat into play if that cat is in your discard pile. In my example I stipulated that the other cats are not in your discard pile.

 

My apologies for a lack of clarity - it doesn't matter whether it's a basic action or not because any skill test has the inherent capacity to change the game state. This is based on a developer response, already quoted by @Henryillusion above.

With regards to Augur etc., the ability on Augur still causes a skill test, but the automatic success causes step 3/4 of that skill test to be skipped (c.f. the Errata/FAQ, point 2.9). As we can see in the aforementioned developer response, a skill test has the capacity to change the game state even if you don't draw or resolve a chaos token (since you can commit cards etc.), so you can still use Augur's discard ability if there's no other cats in your discard pile.

[FireBones 2]

On 6/9/2020 at 1:00 AM, Henryillusion said:

I just read this post on the BGG.

 

Thanks for posting this. I must admit that the reply appears to contradict the Rules Reference because the Rules Reference explicitly states that  This potential is assessed without taking into account the consequences of the cost payment or any other ability interactions.

The cases that Matt is quoted as references all refer to other abilities (the chaos token effects are abilities, as are the elder sign effects). And clearly the use of rabbit foot is an ability---though one could claim that "a skill test was just failed" is part of the game state.

I do wonder if the This potential is assessed without taking into account the consequences of the cost payment or any other ability interactions may only refer to the part about the cost having the potential of being paid, and not about the potential for the effect to change game state. 

Anyways, it is settled now, and I appreciate your posting.