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97Starvipper

LAAT/i Point cost Speculation

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Posted (edited)

What are we thinking the cost of the I2 LAAT fighter with no upgrades? I'm thinking it should be anywhere from 55 to 60 points for the base ship (I2 Generic) . The Lamba, which is 10 health with a reinforce action is currently 43. The Resistance Bomber, which has a bow tie turret, but no reinforce with 12 health, is 52 points currently.  Neither of these have a ship ability. The LAAT/i has a ship ability that let friendly ships re-roll up to two dice as long it's a non turret arc and the enemy ship is in both arcs (LAAT and friendly ship) with 2 charges on it. That is a really powerful ability to have on a 10 health ship with a reinforced, purple if you put Plo Koon on him with I would expect to be another 12 to 15 points for the force and great ability. What do you think the tax on the LAAT ship ability? I think it's going to be hefty price to pay....

Edited by 97Starvipper

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Large base and medium base are not the same. 

However for purposes of costing, small and medium bases are relatively close. With perhaps a minor discount for medium bases, as these are "clunkier" without serious extra bumping value of large bases. 

Ywing = 1agi, 8health, 30pts. Mobility: better than LAAT Feeling: probably fair. 
+ 4to5 pts range3 turret, probably worth about that much. RZ1A=29pts, RZ2A=32pts(but is OP and should be closer to 33 or 34 comparatively) 
+ 3 more for 2 more health. (Upgrades like Hull upgrade do not scale when they are forcibly included in chassis)
+ 2 point for the ability
- 1 for medium base
0 for net change to shields vs hull
= LAAT is around 37. 38 for safety. 39 starts to get too high: a Reaper is 41. an Arc is 42, and has a THIRD DIE (which is worth something near 6-12 points) and only lacks the ability(which suggests -2 points, so the third die looks around 8 points) 

Kwing is overcosted comparatively, for an extra hull from the Ywing. Should be 33 I believe. 

 

----

The LAAT and the ARC are going to have some trouble with overlapping roles, even if the arc is more gunshippy with the 3rd die. 

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  • LAAT over 50 points also feels wrong to me.  It's 2-dice, and a 2-dice generic shouldn't be that expensive.  The ability is nice, but not that nice.
  • LAAT under 40 is absurd to me.
    • First round of combat, it hands out two free Locks (rerolling 2 dice is about as good as a Lock), and does another free Lock every round thereafter, and can do this while bumping.  Only pricing the ability at 2 points just doesn't make any sense.  This thing blows the doors off a Y-Wing or K-Wing because of the free rerolls it gives, and has to be priced accordingly.
    • There is pretty much zero role overlap between the LAAT and the ARC.  The ARC is a jouster.  The LAAT is a support ship.  I've got some sympathy for folks who want the LAAT to be a gunship, but that isn't the direction FFG has gone.  Don't ignore it's power as a support ship when speculating on prices.
      • I'm also not fully convinced that the 104th ARC is properly priced... probably ought to be 43.  I don't have an issue with the others, just 104th.
    • If you want to compare it to a Y-Wing, @Blail Blerg ?  Use Dutch Vander not a Gray Bomber.  Dutch + Dorsal + Hull = 46.  The LAAT turret being better and the health being better and gaining Reinforce balance out medium base and the lower Initiative.
    • K-Wings are overpriced.  How can they not be?  They're a Barrage Rockets ship.  Worst upgrade FFG has printed, since it's forced every ship which can carry it to be trash.  Aggressor and TIE Bomber have only now gotten down to the correct price, but Punisher and K-Wing are still completely wrong because of these dang missiles.  With Barrage Rockets out of the equation, I'd find 35 fair for a K-Wing.  The extra health and full turrets of the K-Wing seem worth at least 2 points over a Dorsal Y-Wing.
  • I'm guessing 43-46 points for it.  The ship ability is quite strong.

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Posted (edited)

I'm with @theBitterFig on this one. Given the strength of the Jedi or clones it will be supporting and highly likely ability to take cannons/missiles based on what we've seen to provide forward punch (and a 270 arc, roughly) there's no way they start in the 30s. They could get there if they aren't successful but I expect them to be conservatively priced.

And there is minimal if any overlap to the ARC in role from what we've seen.

Edited by dsul413

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

+ 2 point for the [LAAT] ability

Not to pile on here, but you are massively undervaluing that pilot ship ability.

Remember which faction this thing is in. Those action-free pseudo-target locks aren't going to V-19s or ARCs or what have you, they are going to be used by Delta-7Bs and Ric. Don't think of this thing like a slightly heavier Y-wing or K-wing. Think of like an offence-boosting PalpShuttle, because that's more in line with the kind of effect it will have.

Given the context of exactly who it will be supporting, I'm actually not so sure 50-ish points isn't appropriate.

Edited by DR4CO
Get your game terms right, Drac...

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I am putting my bet that you can only fit 3 in a squad, if Republic didn't have Jedi then maybe there could be a bit more freedom. But rerolls on attack dice for blanks with force and focus tokens for focus results?

Obi and Plo with 7B and R2 Astro leave 52 points to spare. Dunno how I feel about that.

I am really looking forward to the Laat and I am probably looking to buy 2 to 3 of them but unfortunately Jedi might push their points up. Or maybe 42 point arcs and 25 point torrents prove me wrong.

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One thing about 3 vs 4: this probably isn't a break-point-issues ship.  Maybe 4 with Barrage Rockets could pose an issue, but with only 2-dice primary weapons that can't benefit from each other's ship abilities, 4 of these seems like a really weak list, unless it's 4 with Barrage Rockets.

If these wind up being more than 50 points, it'll be because they're even stronger support than I'd suppose.  That could easily be the case.

I think that, like most other support ships, this won't be a ship where spamming it is any good.

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Also, another point is that Sinker in the arc, who lets you reroll 1 attack die out the side Range 1-2, is 54 points. I would say the LAAT is easier to trigger and overall better. You have an easier trigger and it lets you re-roll 2 attack die but is limited in charges. I would be willing to pay 47 to 53 points for this chaste. 

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13 hours ago, 97Starvipper said:

True...You don't have the limitation with Sinker. Just saying. Just formation flying.

In the right list, the LAAT really comes out ahead.  It's *really* hard to try to keep fast-moving aces in slow-moving Sinker's side arcs.  It won't be too hard to keep enemy ships in a LAAT's mobile arc.

The more I think about it, having a LAAT cost at 47 points or more might be right.

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Posted (edited)

All I know is I'd be stapling Aayla crew on these boys. 

Focus+linked purple coordinate?!?!

Hmm. Yeah, thanks, I'll trade my regenning calculate for a full focus and another action on my buddy for no stress. 

Bonkers. 

Edited by Bucknife

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20 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

All I know is I'd be stapling Aayla crew on these boys. 

Focus+linked purple coordinate?!?!

Hmm. Yeah, thanks, I'll trade my regenning calculate for a full focus and another action on my buddy for no stress. 

Bonkers. 

Slap a seventh fleet gunner on there and let the good times roll!

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2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

I'm surprised that the pirate queen hasn't been brought up as a point of reference for the LAAT/i's ability. Though I may have just missed it if she has. The LAAT's ship ability and her pilot ability are **** well near twins in in their effect.

Drea:

latest?cb=20180914014424

Drea was mentioned up in @theBitterFig original post on this thread. 

3 hours ago, Bucknife said:

All I know is I'd be stapling Aayla crew on these boys. 

Focus+linked purple coordinate?!?!

Hmm. Yeah, thanks, I'll trade my regenning calculate for a full focus and another action on my buddy for no stress. 

Bonkers. 

I find it interesting that your excited for Aayla with the LAAT @Bucknife. Personally for me, I'm excited for Plo Kloon and Commander Coday on the LAAT with a couple of V-19s with Dedicate and Concussion missiles and a pocket ace (Ric or Obi, depending on points and who is more available) or passive sensor Ion handmaiden to help the LAAT survive that extra turn or two and help set up a (hopefully) hard hitting turn the following turn.

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2 minutes ago, 97Starvipper said:

Drea was mentioned up in @theBitterFig original post on this thread. 

I find it interesting that your excited for Aayla with the LAAT @Bucknife. Personally for me, I'm excited for Plo Kloon and Commander Coday on the LAAT with a couple of V-19s with Dedicate and Concussion missiles and a pocket ace (Ric or Obi, depending on points and who is more available) or passive sensor Ion handmaiden to help the LAAT survive that extra turn or two and help set up a (hopefully) hard hitting turn the following turn.

Sure! 

I realise the gunship statline isn't exactly rolling a bunch of dice without ordinance, which Aayla's focus isn't exactly helping accomplish (unless these have a Missile slot for Prockets) - upgrading the force to a focus with the "free" coordinate is really just for the stress-less squad support.

I imagine she'll be a leaner gunship build meant strictly to prop up some other more powerful piece of your list with her constant coordinates (Alpha strike Anakin Y-Wing, anyone?). 

__________

What I'm truly interested in is how our Chancellor will effect the Republic playstyle on this chassis.

I'd be surprised if Palp gunship isn't as meta defining for the faction as Vultures are for seps. 

340?cb=20190225182606

It's like the definition of iconic, unless we get a Nu Shuttle or something. 

 

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10 minutes ago, 97Starvipper said:

Drea was mentioned up in @theBitterFig original post on this thread.

I said Dutch Vander.

Drea is 1 reroll, but unlimited charges.  Not a bad comparison, but the big issue with Drea were those lists which used her ability *A LOT* more often than once per turn.

Dutch (below) has probably a closer mathematical effect: one ship per turn getting a bigger boost.

Card_Pilot_14.jpg

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I'm guessing FFG will pick* 47-48 for the generic, based on Drea, Sinker, Lambda. Imagine there'll probably be a fairly narrow point spread from there to the named pilots (like the Lambda).
*not meaning I therefore necessarily agree that it's correct

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3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I said Dutch Vander.

Drea is 1 reroll, but unlimited charges.  Not a bad comparison, but the big issue with Drea were those lists which used her ability *A LOT* more often than once per turn.

Dutch (below) has probably a closer mathematical effect: one ship per turn getting a bigger boost.

Card_Pilot_14.jpg

@theBitterFig My bad. For points wise, I agree that Dutch is probably a better comparison too.

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1 hour ago, svelok said:

I'm guessing FFG will pick* 47-48 for the generic, based on Drea, Sinker, Lambda. Imagine there'll probably be a fairly narrow point spread from there to the named pilots (like the Lambda).
*not meaning I therefore necessarily agree that it's correct

So completionists will buy 4. 

Yeah, wouldn't surprise me in the sub 50 bracket. 

It's just a 2 red gun. 

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