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Venompuppy

That rule that no one follows

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In the Rules Reference, it says, "The calculation of a value treats all modifiers as being applied simultaneously. However, while performing the calculation, all additive and subtractive modifiers are calculated before doubling and/or halving modifiers are calculated." That means when Klaw gets +10 hit points from Immortal Klaw, he gets +40 in a 4-player game. Same with Pile Driver's Distracting Taunts. Am I correct? Because I don't see any one follow this rule, and this is how I've always done it. It's in page 11 of the original rules reference under modifiers.

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1 hour ago, Venompuppy said:

In the Rules Reference, it says, "The calculation of a value treats all modifiers as being applied simultaneously. However, while performing the calculation, all additive and subtractive modifiers are calculated before doubling and/or halving modifiers are calculated." That means when Klaw gets +10 hit points from Immortal Klaw, he gets +40 in a 4-player game. Same with Pile Driver's Distracting Taunts. Am I correct? Because I don't see any one follow this rule, and this is how I've always done it. It's in page 11 of the original rules reference under modifiers.

The Klaw and Pile driver cards you listed don’t get multiplied because they don’t have the per player symbol. If it read Klaw gets +10 hit points per player, then yes it would be +40 in a 4 player game. As it’s worded it is just a flat +10.

EB6F8CE6-23B8-4F2E-A29E-D8E420446C1F.jpeg

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But it literally says, additive and subtractive modifiers before doubling and halving. Which means, you add the +10 hit points to Klaw's health, then multiply per player. 

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10 minutes ago, Venompuppy said:

The only time the per player icon is used anywhere else besides the Villains, is in side schemes. 

So far, but more uses are coming. The Czech spoilers for Rise of Red Skull had one example on a player card.

While I understand what you're getting at, I think the intent of that bit in the rules is not for cards such as Immortal Klaw. Sure, when setting up Expert Klaw you put out the Immortal side scheme at the beginning-ish (I think you still set the villain's hit dial before you resolve adding the Immortal Klaw), but what about if you are in the middle of stage 1 Klaw? You set his HP at the beginning of the game, start beating him up, and then when you add 10 HP you're supposed to recalculate it from the beginning? Doesn't work very neatly, there.

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49 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

So far, but more uses are coming. The Czech spoilers for Rise of Red Skull had one example on a player card.

While I understand what you're getting at, I think the intent of that bit in the rules is not for cards such as Immortal Klaw. Sure, when setting up Expert Klaw you put out the Immortal side scheme at the beginning-ish (I think you still set the villain's hit dial before you resolve adding the Immortal Klaw), but what about if you are in the middle of stage 1 Klaw? You set his HP at the beginning of the game, start beating him up, and then when you add 10 HP you're supposed to recalculate it from the beginning? Doesn't work very neatly, there.

It's the same thing as him healing hit points, you're always going to have to re-adjust the hit point dial. It says in the rules to add before you multiply. Pile Driver's Distracting Taunt is completely useless in 4 player. 

But why argue about it? I know there has to be a place where you can ask the game designers questions about the game. Does anyone know where I could do that? I realized that would have been a lot easier than this. 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Venompuppy said:

It's the same thing as him healing hit points, you're always going to have to re-adjust the hit point dial. It says in the rules to add before you multiply.

Do write to FFG if you feel this is preferable, but look, you are adding words to the Rules Reference text now. The condition in the rules is specifically about doubling/halving modifiers. It says nothing about generic multiplier effects (which could be more than x2), let alone the per-player one. I mean, where does a +40 HP calculus for a 4-player game involve a doubling/halving modifier? 

 

 

Edited by Ascarel

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Venompuppy said:

But it literally says, additive and subtractive modifiers before doubling and halving. Which means, you add the +10 hit points to Klaw's health, then multiply per player. 

Not in this scenario. Yes, you would add the modifier before multiplying, if a ruling called for it. The Immortal Klaw has an additive modifier (+10 hit points), but where are you finding a ruling that causes you to multiply this number? If there were a per player symbol printed it would multiply, but what it seems you are saying is that all additive modifiers in the game are automatically multiplied by the number of players, which is not the case.  

Edited by KimJoshIl
Typo

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2 hours ago, KimJoshIl said:

Not in this scenario. Yes, you would add the modifier before multiplying, if a ruling called for it. The Immortal Klaw has an additive modifier (+10 hit points), but where are you finding a ruling that causes you to multiply this number? If there were a per player symbol printed it would multiply, but what it seems you are saying is that all additive modifiers in the game are automatically multiplied by the number of players, which is not the case.  

I'm saying the multiplier is coming from the Villain's health per player rule. They always have a way of making the game as equally difficult with as many players. If they didn't, adding +10 hit points is diluted with more players. The only reason they don't have an increase that's per player in the main scheme for the Wrecking Crew, is because you get an acceleration every time you deck out of one of there really tiny decks. Same could be said for any deck, but you deck out exponentially with 4 players in Wrecking Crew compared to other games. I always thought they added that rule to not dilute the those kind of cards.   

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4 hours ago, Venompuppy said:

It's the same thing as him healing hit points, you're always going to have to re-adjust the hit point dial. It says in the rules to add before you multiply. Pile Driver's Distracting Taunt is completely useless in 4 player. 

But why argue about it? I know there has to be a place where you can ask the game designers questions about the game. Does anyone know where I could do that? I realized that would have been a lot easier than this. 

I wouldn’t call it completely useless, it does prevent players from attacking the other villains until at least one attacks him and pays 2 physical.

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1 minute ago, Derrault said:

I wouldn’t call it completely useless, it does prevent players from attacking the other villains until at least one attacks him and pays 2 physical.

Why, but my strategy is to target Pile Driver first anyways. But you're right, it does have a set back, especially useful when I'm trying to play cards that target more than one enemy. Just because it's so hard to get minions out and the fact that half of them have Guard. 

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Some abilities are stronger at lower player counts/weaker at higher counts and there are some things stronger at higher counts and weaker at lower counts. Just how it is.

In this case, Villian hit points are set in step 9, set up abilities in step 14, and since it doesn't specifically say per player, it is a flat 10 hp.

 

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14 minutes ago, Venompuppy said:

Why, but my strategy is to target Pile Driver first anyways. But you're right, it does have a set back, especially useful when I'm trying to play cards that target more than one enemy. Just because it's so hard to get minions out and the fact that half of them have Guard. 

Plus, his retaliate means you’d prefer to deal damage without attacking him (ala She-Hulk)

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10 minutes ago, Deadwolf said:

Some abilities are stronger at lower player counts/weaker at higher counts and there are some things stronger at higher counts and weaker at lower counts. Just how it is.

In this case, Villian hit points are set in step 9, set up abilities in step 14, and since it doesn't specifically say per player, it is a flat 10 hp.

 

And the side scheme has more threat/player so it’s not like the card doesn’t scale at all.

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Posted (edited)

I mean if you want to make the game harder for yourself and the 3-players you are playing the game with are ok with it, then by all means add as many multipliers to as many cards as you want. You own the game and if that is your preference I am not going to stop you - my thwart is being used elsewhere!

That being said I gotta be honest, I don't agree with your interpretation. The Immortal Klaw says "Klaw gets 10 Hit points" and that is it. There is not a per player symbol so there is no requirement to add a per player multiplier. Same with "Distracting Taunts" in the Wrecking Crew set.

 The "Per Player" section of the rules reference even specifies that you only add a per player multiplier if you see that symbol next to a value. So I don't understand why you are thinking it should be applied to cards that don't have it. 

It seems pretty cut and dry to me but if you need to hear FFG say it before you will believe it then by all means fill out a rules reference form. All the best.

 

Edited by TheSpitfired
thought I came off too harsh, cleaned it up

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9 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

 It seems pretty cut and dry to me but if you need to hear FFG say it before you will believe it then by all means fill out a rules reference form. All the best.

I've already sent one a while ago. They just haven't replied yet.

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This interpretation relies on the idea that the villain's hitpoints are constantly recalculated, which I don't think is the case. 

Villain hp is set at the beginning of the game and calculated then.

By the same logic, under surveillance would increase a scheme max by 4 per player, which I again don't think is the case, because the multipliers have already been calculated at the beginning of the game, not recalculated constantly.

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2 hours ago, 2morrow said:

This interpretation relies on the idea that the villain's hitpoints are constantly recalculated, which I don't think is the case. 

Villain hp is set at the beginning of the game and calculated then.

By the same logic, under surveillance would increase a scheme max by 4 per player, which I again don't think is the case, because the multipliers have already been calculated at the beginning of the game, not recalculated constantly.

That makes sense, never thought about it that way. Thanks everyone for making my games a lot easier!  

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