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Cpt ObVus

So talk to me about K-Wings.

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On 5/22/2020 at 7:50 AM, theBitterFig said:

2.B: I've seen an absurd Miranda/Esege/Wedge list where the K-Wings are wicked overloaded, Miranda has Han Gunner (makes sense... early turret attack followed by missiles), and it looks like it shouldn't work, but at least one player has reported fun games with it.  I guess what I'm saying is there's probably some wacky fun to have with them, even if they aren't dominating tournaments.

I haven't read the whole fleet yet, but I'm probably the one who loved the fleet.  ^_^

@Cpt ObVus It's not meta-strong IMO, but it's a lot of fun.  Here ya go:

Miranda Doni (42)    
    Barrage Rockets (8)    
    Han Solo (14)    
    Sabine Wren (3)    
    Seismic Charges (3)    
    Proton Bombs (5)    
    Advanced SLAM (3)    
Ship total: 78  Half Points: 39  Threshold: 5    
    
Wedge Antilles (55)    
    Crack Shot (1)    
    Servomotor S-Foils (0)    
Ship total: 56  Half Points: 28  Threshold: 3    
    
Esege Tuketu (44)    
    Barrage Rockets (8)    
    Perceptive Copilot (8)    
    Proton Bombs (5)    
    Delayed Fuses (1)    
Ship total: 66  Half Points: 33  Threshold: 5    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z17XW97WW84W57W71W69W104Y5X116WWWW142Y18XW97WWW54W69WW236&sn=A Revised Miranda Fleet2&obs=

 

Miranda can make an init 7 turret shot, either pumping a shield into damage or dropping the dice to regain her shield (at init 7 that's great) and stay safe.  Barrage Rockets ideally let her attack again at init 4 if enemies are in front, and bombs help to cover her rear and give her space to flee.  She SLAMs to bail out of trouble or to get turned around, and Advanced SLAM lets her either grab a lock or reload something on those turns since she won't be shooting, or just focus for survival.

Esege is a fantastic support unit, helping both Wedge and Miranda with the much-needed dice modifications, including on defense.  This helps Wedge last a lot longer and be a bit more aggressive -- I've been reprimanded for not having shield regen on Wedge, but it's just not my playstyle.  And when Esege's focuses mean Wedge can land a Lock + Focus shot, it really hurts the target.

I love what Sabine does, but I'm saddened at just how nerfed tractors are now, since they were her most fun option.  And she's a lot less important if there are medium or large ships on the enemy team, since half her tokens will do nothing.  You might replace her with Jyn if preferred...?

I should note though that for such an expensive ship, Esege isn't very dangerous on his own.  So maybe be aggressive with him to block and get into the tussle to drop bombs, since it's better to deal that damage now and burn fast to contribute, than to be the last standing.  But it's often even more important to get his action to focus, or else his support is meaningless.  So that can be tough when in the tussle because your fat hips tend to bump.  His best weapon is his support ability, followed by bombs, followed by his rockets or turret.  A big help is Delayed Fuses, letting him better control the battlefield and either deter or punish people going places the team doesn't want them.

On the ideal round Miranda is attacking twice and hitting things behind her with bombs, but that ideal rarely happens.  Approaching aggressive to start is fine, but you'll quickly need to be patient and strategic with her, and not get too greedy.  She can be really durable, or she can burn down in just a round or two of focused fire.  And she can never regen past 1 shield...  She is not the TLT-strafing monster of 1E anymore.  I suppose that's part of the reason I built the fleet, make something nifty with her muted form.  ^_^

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Some other thoughts:

1) Part of the reason Trajectory Sim isn't so dangerous anymore is it's been fixed in its wording (and cost to some extent).  No more "Genius" shenanigans or comboing with Autoblaster Turret on a Scurrg, for example.  IMO it's not the reason bombs are not super common; mines are also pretty expensive and can be tough to use, but they're IMO easier to use.  The trickiness of deploying bombs and aces' ability to almost ignore them, and nerfs to individual ships and various game mechanics are more the reason.  Tragedy Simulation did upset some people, but in 2E it's not the monster it once was.  It shouldn't be priced high or kept off of ships that could use it decently, IMO.

2) Some bombs are great, e.g. Proton Bombs and Seismics.  Some are average like Ion Bombs.  Some are straight garbage.  I'm looking at you, bomblet generator.

3) The K-Wing's fix probably shouldn't be shooting after a SLAM.  IMO, that was iconically the gunboat's ability, but Black One and the Fireball have started herding in on its territory (just like the SLAM ships are taking uniqueness away from the K-Wing).  I'd prefer to let the K-Wing be something else.

4) I'm one of those who thinks the K-Wing is beautiful.

5) It also worked better as a small base with 1.0's tools, and it's been both nerfed in ability in the transition and nerfed in the tools/support area.  It's hurting as a result.  Like someone said above, the Jumpmaster, Auzituck, Scurrg, and K-Wing have been paying for their first edition sins and we're just stuck waiting for FFG to turn their attention to the rest the way they've been revisiting the Jumpmaster.

6) Whether ordnance should err on the side of overpowered or underpowered... Okay, so, I've seen enough alpha-strike lists to not be eager to have OP munitions.  Many of the munitions carriers I like are hurting because many missiles are meh, torps are priced high to prevent alpha-strikers, etc.  It's rough.  But alpha strikers also wreck a lot of fleet designs so I'm okay with being cautious in their pricing and design over being gung-ho.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Wazat said:

I haven't read the whole fleet yet, but I'm probably the one who loved the fleet.  ^_^

@Cpt ObVus It's not meta-strong IMO, but it's a lot of fun.  Here ya go:

Miranda Doni (42)    
    Barrage Rockets (8)    
    Han Solo (14)    
    Sabine Wren (3)    
    Seismic Charges (3)    
    Proton Bombs (5)    
    Advanced SLAM (3)    
Ship total: 78  Half Points: 39  Threshold: 5    
    
Wedge Antilles (55)    
    Crack Shot (1)    
    Servomotor S-Foils (0)    
Ship total: 56  Half Points: 28  Threshold: 3    
    
Esege Tuketu (44)    
    Barrage Rockets (8)    
    Perceptive Copilot (8)    
    Proton Bombs (5)    
    Delayed Fuses (1)    
Ship total: 66  Half Points: 33  Threshold: 5    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z17XW97WW84W57W71W69W104Y5X116WWWW142Y18XW97WWW54W69WW236&sn=A Revised Miranda Fleet2&obs=

 

Miranda can make an init 7 turret shot, either pumping a shield into damage or dropping the dice to regain her shield (at init 7 that's great) and stay safe.  Barrage Rockets ideally let her attack again at init 4 if enemies are in front, and bombs help to cover her rear and give her space to flee.  She SLAMs to bail out of trouble or to get turned around, and Advanced SLAM lets her either grab a lock or reload something on those turns since she won't be shooting, or just focus for survival.

Esege is a fantastic support unit, helping both Wedge and Miranda with the much-needed dice modifications, including on defense.  This helps Wedge last a lot longer and be a bit more aggressive -- I've been reprimanded for not having shield regen on Wedge, but it's just not my playstyle.  And when Esege's focuses mean Wedge can land a Lock + Focus shot, it really hurts the target.

I love what Sabine does, but I'm saddened at just how nerfed tractors are now, since they were her most fun option.  And she's a lot less important if there are medium or large ships on the enemy team, since half her tokens will do nothing.  You might replace her with Jyn if preferred...?

I should note though that for such an expensive ship, Esege isn't very dangerous on his own.  So maybe be aggressive with him to block and get into the tussle to drop bombs, since it's better to deal that damage now and burn fast to contribute, than to be the last standing.  But it's often even more important to get his action to focus, or else his support is meaningless.  So that can be tough when in the tussle because your fat hips tend to bump.  His best weapon is his support ability, followed by bombs, followed by his rockets or turret.  A big help is Delayed Fuses, letting him better control the battlefield and either deter or punish people going places the team doesn't want them.

On the ideal round Miranda is attacking twice and hitting things behind her with bombs, but that ideal rarely happens.  Approaching aggressive to start is fine, but you'll quickly need to be patient and strategic with her, and not get too greedy.  She can be really durable, or she can burn down in just a round or two of focused fire.  And she can never regen past 1 shield...  She is not the TLT-strafing monster of 1E anymore.  I suppose that's part of the reason I built the fleet, make something nifty with her muted form.  ^_^

Love this list, love that fat Miranda build. Looks super fun! I’ll have to try it with some different support pieces, though, as I only have a lone K-Wing. Maybe Kyle Katarn would be a suitable replacement?

In fact, if I downgraded Wedge a bit, to an i5 or something, and turned Esege into Katarn, I might be able to squeeze in Jake Farrel or something. Love it! You gave my brain something to chew on. Thanks!

Edited by Cpt ObVus

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2 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Love this list, love that fat Miranda build. Looks super fun! I’ll have to try it with some different support pieces, though, as I only have a lone K-Wing. Maybe Kyle Katarn would be a suitable replacement?

In fact, if I downgraded Wedge a bit, to an i5 or something, and turned Esege into Katarn, I might be able to squeeze in Jake Farrel or something. Love it! You gave my brain something to chew on. Thanks!

I'm always the evil one who's pressuring people to proxy stuff, but... if you have a conversion kit to support one k-wing, you probably have everything for two K-Wings save for the 2nd model.  :ph34r:

And Miranda + Esege + Wedge together is a lot of fun!

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44 minutes ago, Wazat said:

I'm always the evil one who's pressuring people to proxy stuff, but... if you have a conversion kit to support one k-wing, you probably have everything for two K-Wings save for the 2nd model.  :ph34r:

And Miranda + Esege + Wedge together is a lot of fun!

I just bought literally one (or more) of every model in the game in about two months. I found some great deals, and my wife was forgiving, as it fell under the heading of “Quarantine Retail Therapy,” but I have to be slightly more judicious about future purchases. Told her I’d slow it down to 1-2 per month. 🙂

So I figured I’d try something like “Mirandiana Jones and the Turrets of Doom,” over in the Squads forum. Feedback appreciated!

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5 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I just bought literally one (or more) of every model in the game in about two months. I found some great deals, and my wife was forgiving, as it fell under the heading of “Quarantine Retail Therapy,” but I have to be slightly more judicious about future purchases. Told her I’d slow it down to 1-2 per month. 🙂

So I figured I’d try something like “Mirandiana Jones and the Turrets of Doom,” over in the Squads forum. Feedback appreciated!

What I mean by proxy is, just don't worry about what you don't have.  Fly Miranda's base with the model on its pegs, and the other base with pegs but no model.  I'm all about saving money in this game!

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27 minutes ago, Wazat said:

What I mean by proxy is, just don't worry about what you don't have.  Fly Miranda's base with the model on its pegs, and the other base with pegs but no model.  I'm all about saving money in this game!

Good advice, but I’m constitutionally incapable of doing that. 🙂

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Did you ever hear the tragedy of Miranda Doni, the wise? I thought not.  It's not a story a 2.0 player would tell you. It's a 1.0 legend. Miranda Doni was a pilot, so powerful and so wise she could use the Force to influence the dice modification to create dice results... She had such a knowledge of the dice modification that she could even keep herself from dying. Dice modification is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. She became so powerful... the only thing she was afraid of was losing her power, which eventually, of course, she did. Unfortunately, she taught 1.0 players the power of dice modification, then those players called for her to be nerfed. It's ironic she could save her dice from failing, but not herself.

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On 5/23/2020 at 6:03 PM, dezzmont said:

Hard disagree there for a few reasons. For one, because ordinance has more value on 2 attack than 3 attack ships it isn't hard to sorta slide in strong ordinance on ships that need it and weak on ones that don't. For another, being encouraged to fill upgrade slots rather than discouraged makes the game have more axises of balance and variance between ship types.

The main issue with the K-wing isn't so much ordinance is bad (it really isn't anyway, its one of the few upgrades you can get a lot of value from on non-aces and aces alike), it is that the K-wing is, in reality, not a very good ordinance ship, especially in the rebel faction where the Y-wing is almost a gold standard for being a great torp boat, with a slimmer profile, more base maneuverability, and extremely strong pilots, one of whom has very explicit synergy with torps.

This makes no sense. If Tragedy sim is such a huge upgrade to bombs to the point the combo would be too strong, but bombs alone would be fine, why is the cost of the sim being applied to bombs? It isn't, and a lot of the best bomb lists in the game's history don't use Tragedy Simulator, and bombs actually do show up from time to time.

Furthermore, you DO need to work to line up a Tragedy simulator shot, because it still has the main weakness of bombs (requiring a hard read, because your opponent always knows where the bomb will end up if you launch it or drop it) while also occurring in a position that is not as easy to 'trap' someone in. People WANT to stay in rear arcs, it makes it easy to maintain uptime. People don't want to be 5 directly in front of you, so Tragedy simulator doesn't really do much more than forcibly breaks up jousty swarms (to which I say... good) and punishes REALLY sloppy flying (Maybe don't fly directly in front of the bomber?). In reality, that zone the Tragedy simulator controls is essentially your bullseye arc at range 3, which is trivial to avoid, especially vs most bomber chasises.

It is telling that proton bombs are in the top 10% of upgrades, while trajectory simulator is in the bottom 50%. The value in forcing your opponent to carefully consider entering range 1 rear arc of where you started this turn (literally the best spot you can be in X-wing vs 99% of ships, as it means they can't fire back without stress and without an extreme maneuver you WILL be able to shoot them and continue to chase them) is titanic. There are other problems with bombs where certain ships can use them to effectively shoot both at their final position front and rear AND protect one of their sides by doing a hard turn with a bomb (Why is it always Boba...?) but that has nothing to do with trajectory simulator and has everything to do with a very limited number of ships.

Trajectory simulator only is a problem when a ship already has a lot of arc coverage, because suddenly that extra danger zone becomes oppressive, but even then arc coverage ships like the Resistance Bomber often choose to not take it on their top lists, which says a lot for how actually not powerful at all it is.

Saying the Trajectory Simulator 'needs to be weak' is probably the pinnacle of 1.0 legacy hysteria towards any and all options outside of modding and aces because of how... fundamentally not a problem the upgrade is. It basically doesn't do anything if your opponent has any sense. Is it annoying to be forced to avoid the danger zone? Well, sure, but trying to avoid options that ever disrupt basic game plans at all cost because they are 'annoying' is actually the bad game design, especially in a game where players customize their options: You WANT for players to sometimes be forced to not do the obvious thing of getting aggressive on a chunky bomber and hardcore jousting their face, because if no strategy exists that can say 'no, don't do that, try something else' then the game becomes stagnant.

I don't think lacking a tragedy sim is the K-wing's real problem (though getting a sensor slot would certainly give you a reason to take it over the Y!), but I also think it is pretty silly to say one of the worse performing upgrades in the game is a design limiter to something that clearly isn't being held back.

Give me one reason an upgrade should give a bomb more range than some turrets and missiles. Im genuinely curious why you think thats healthy for the game.

also ordinance has never worked in x-wing well, and theres a clear reason for it:   red dice are used for both "to hit" and "damage".  The games combat was designed for primary weapon attacks, and heavy weapons just dont fit it.  either its not worth the lock and S.p., or its O.P. with nothing in between.

Plus in real life the guided Air to Air missile ended dogfighting entirely. Then when when missiles got good in X-wing they ended 1.0.  we dont need that crap again

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On 5/22/2020 at 3:18 AM, DR4CO said:

National, once upon a time. Top 4 placing at a System Open more recently.

I stand by my statement. If the list was so dependent upon all 4 K-wings having bombs that it's no longer good without them, then it probably wasn't that great to start with and would have been figured out before long.

It wouldn't have been the first time, or last time that a list ambushed a major event before being figured out and left to slowly fade away. Vader Vynder Jendon springs to mind.

Quad Wardens with 4 barrage, protons and sabine is 206, which means it has to cut 2 upgrades, not just a single proton bomb. Sabine + 4 protons was a big part of what made the list so effective, because it would carpet the map with 3-4 bombs at once, and then if you got caught by one of them, you would get likely get tractored into 1-2 more.

I have actually had some success forgoing missiles altogether and just going 4 protons and 4 prox mines with sabine in there and just blocking all day and chipping away at folks with bomb damage, but this was before the lockdown set and not in any tournaments. 

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