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Cpt ObVus

So talk to me about K-Wings.

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14 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Yeeeees, I can see that. 🙂 But some of the ships with a turret primary can hold a turret upgrade as well. I’d love to slap an Ion Cannon Turret on this thing to give it a bit more punch.

Only in 1.0....some did then 🙂 

 

1 hour ago, Bucknife said:

K-Wings got slighted in the sequels, so FFG doesn't have a lot to work with as of Summer 2020. 

We're honestly lucky they made 2e conversion material for these legends ships at all.  

It’s not luck: hordes of us would revolt if we couldn’t use all our 1.0 toys in 2.0.

That said, I’d be ok if they left it as is without new content or at least without revisiting the model. Card pack with legends content only would be awesome: new K and E pilots, maybe some z95 pilots so that new players can use their 2.0 scum z95 in Rebels (almost like a reverse most wanted). Since it’s just a legends pack, maybe some Kihraxz fighter pilots, Viper pilots, etc.

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I’m just a little puzzled as to why, if they were gonna bother bringing old ships forward, they didn’t make all of them competitive (or at least, closer to that mark). More than half their work is already done, model designed, dial and stats reset, basic upgrade slot suite mostly settled... just make sure it’s decently powered? Seems easy, and a waste to not do so. 

Then meanwhile there’s the Outrider, which is so obviously pushed that it’s practically almost busted. Weird.

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2 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I’m just a little puzzled as to why, if they were gonna bother bringing old ships forward, they didn’t make all of them competitive (or at least, closer to that mark). More than half their work is already done, model designed, dial and stats reset, basic upgrade slot suite mostly settled... just make sure it’s decently powered? Seems easy, and a waste to not do so. 

Then meanwhile there’s the Outrider, which is so obviously pushed that it’s practically almost busted. Weird.

Allot of the ships and upgrades that were meta dominate in 1.0 (as in not flying them resulted in a near certainty of failure to win a match, much less an event) for long periods of time or presented a negative experience to those who flew against them received that treatment. I suspect it was done as an attempt to show that FFG doesn't intend to repeat the mistakes made in 1.0.

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5 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I’m still really puzzled as to the lack of a Sensors slot on this thing... why would allowing Rebels to have a decent TrajSim platform be so terrible?

Because Sabine crew exists, and she will end games on the first round if you let her lob a bomb into people.

The new Sabine crew is, in a lot of ways, even better than her 1st Edition self. 1 damage is just 1 damage, but any of those tokens Sabine hands out can set you up to take much, much more and entirely ruin your following turns.

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2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Allot of the ships and upgrades that were meta dominate in 1.0 (as in not flying them resulted in a near certainty of failure to win a match, much less an event) for long periods of time or presented a negative experience to those who flew against them received that treatment. I suspect it was done as an attempt to show that FFG doesn't intend to repeat the mistakes made in 1.0.

I’d rather have interesting and usable game pieces than symbolic gestures. Too bad they feel compelled to do things that way, if you’re right.

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12 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I’d rather have interesting and usable game pieces than symbolic gestures. Too bad they feel compelled to do things that way, if you’re right.

If you'd seen the level of mindless, vitriolic hate leveled at some of the ships, upgrades and mechanics (including some that exist currently that just share the same name or function similarly but at a very reduced power level) you would understand why.

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17 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I’d rather have interesting and usable game pieces than symbolic gestures. Too bad they feel compelled to do things that way, if you’re right.

I feel like the K is still usable, just not top tier.

And I don’t mind that it’s not top tier - I played enough of them in 1.0 but always the same pilot (Miranda). 

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15 hours ago, dezzmont said:

Rebels have quite a few ways to give someone else a focus, but Esege lets you do that reactively as needed, which frees up your ships to either target lock more or reposition more. This makes Esege's support ability, in my opinion, the best in Rebels with perceptive co-pilot, as its giving you +1 focus but more importantly insuring the two ships that need focus the most get it. This means it works great in lists with ships that often need support

I love Esege.
My favorite list in 2.0 so far is:

Esege with Perceptive Copilot, Advanced SLAM, Seismic Charges
Wegde with Proton Rockets, R4, Afterburners, Servo
Kullbee Sperado with Cloaking Device, Proton Rockets, R4, Servo

Really mobile list! Not a tournament winner per se (it can go wrong very fast), but when flown right, it can be really good and it's so much fun to fly.

Key to this list is hanging around some densely placed rocks, staying in range 2 of Esege for his two focus tokens (his advanced SLAM makes this relatively easy) & trying to pull the enemy towards you/the rocks.
If they follow Esege, great, he's only support. Also: he's really hard to pin down (I love SLAMming), plus he likes to stay close to asteroids so he can use his seismic charges to damage the enemy or clear the field for his 2 friends, if necessary.
He's never done much damage in a game with his 2 dice turret, even if he still had a focus token left for his attack, but hey, he's mostly/only there for delivering those focus tokens.

Kullbee is fun too:
cloaks in turn 1, decloaks in round 2, makes for some nice mobility/unpredictability early game,
Boosting + focus + 3 attack dice is always an option and the protorps are sweet, especially with Esege's focus tokens hanging around.
If Kullbee is cought in a pile of range 1 fire, cloak him, get 4 evade dice in total, use Esege's 2 focus tokens on the green dice & watch your enemy growl with frustration as Kullbee evades a lot of those incoming hits.

Wedge is a beast if you can get a fast lock & shoot the protorps with a double mod thanks to esege's focus.
The afterburners are great when you need them. His ability is great, especially when delivering 4 proton torpedo hits/crits to a squishy ace: ultimate brutal.

 

Apart from Esege, I would argue that K-wings are indeed pretty ****.
Still love the design though.

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8 hours ago, dezzmont said:

I disagree that Trajectory Sim is a fundementally NPE upgrade in 2.0 (Its only purpose is to make it so you can't sit in front of the bomber like a complete goober, basically giving the ship a bad front+back arc), it becomes problematic on ships that already can maintain good side coverage, as it goes from a healthy control option that forces your opponent to avoid just sitting around or casually flying straight at you from distance to giving your opponent almost no places to actually come at you without getting hit.

This is why it is unfortunate it thematically makes the most sense on a lot of ships with turrets or Bowties, and is part of why its performance on ships that aren't bowtie turret ships (or even stronger, like the Star Fortress which essentially has a 280 degree arc with a bonus dice at the front arc already) is so bad.

The play around to the trajectory sim is to come in at the sides, where the K-wing's guns tend to sit, so now either the ship is priced so it having 100% fire uptime still isn't good, or its an annoying unapproachable monster.

Bombs should do more reliable damage but require you to work to line it up. Trajedy simulator is so good that bombs have to be weak in response, which to me makes it bad game design.  the card should be a unique mod or pilot ability for one ship(likely Tie bombers) that could then be balanced around how brutal it is

 

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Just calling out the toxic anecdotal comparison and then veiled insult asking for the pedigree of a particular responder. Let's not forget the fallacy of: certain results equate precisely to good thinking. 

yoikes. Let's never allow any of that to be normal. 

 

(Sorry, carry on having fun folks.) 

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The K-Wing is a dedicated ordnance carrier in a game where good ordnance balance lies on a knife edge, and as a result most ordnance is currently not worth taking. 

Because it's better for the game to have ordnance be overcosted and ignored instead of undercosted and dominant. 

Sadly, that means the K-Wing by its nature is dependent on upgrades, and if you buff certain upgrades to help the K-Wing, you end up buffing other, better ships too. 

The TIE Punisher has, arguably, the same problem. If proton torpedoes are affordable, Redline is a monster. If they're not, he's unplayable. 

 

What baffles me, however, is the lack of dedicated gunner and crew cards for it. 

FFG opened up great design space by separating out weapon specialists into their own slot, but there's a dearth of generic, widely useful cards for the slot. 

Something to buff torpedoes or missiles in either slot could go a long way. 

One idea I have floating around is an RIO type gunner or crew that lets you spend a focus on engagement to pick an enemy ship. Your opponent then has to pick whether that ship takes a jam token or gets locked. Crew might make more sense so that you can't combo it with Perceptive Copilot. 

Alternatively, I wonder about a gunner that lets you perform a bonus torp shot after a missile shot, or vice versa. So long as you don't remove any requirements, I don't see it being too broken. Worded carefully, you can't just spend a second charge on one upgrade - you have to have invested in one of each type of upgrade. You also only get the second shot if you don't spend the lock/focus on the first, or if you're mixing ordnance requirements (eg. Barrage and ProTorps) and somehow have a means of getting double mods. 

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Seems to me there is some design space for cards that require gunner and crew slots.  Also some interaction for multiple missile slots; perhaps an upgrade that could allow firing a second missile ignoring the attack(lock/focus) requirement for the second missile.  Could make range 2 bullseye a nasty place to land (launch a procket and a homing missile using a single focus), providing a control element. 

I will also add that I was extremely frustrated when FFG added configurations to the alpha-class that negated the conditions for SLAMing while leaving the k-wing hanging. 

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6 hours ago, Target_2.0 said:

I will also add that I was extremely frustrated when FFG added configurations to the alpha-class that negated the conditions for SLAMing while leaving the k-wing hanging. 

Yeah, seems weird; the Assault Gunboat is probably the closest analogue to the K-Wing, and I think they did a great job with the configurations on the Gunboat. I really love flying it, and it feels nice and strong, but by no means overstrong. Something like those configurations for the K would be great. 

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23 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Yeeeees, I can see that. 🙂 But some of the ships with a turret primary can hold a turret upgrade as well. I’d love to slap an Ion Cannon Turret on this thing to give it a bit more punch.

So far the only ships with the ability to have multiple turrets are huge ships. That said, the same mechanic of different colored indicators for different turrets could be applied to regular sized ships. Unfortunately they kinda precluded that option by giving (almost) all of the ships that canonically have multiple turrets the bowtie arc which is elegant at first glance and appropriate on ships that have a symmetrical turret arrangement like the Falcon, but leaves ships of varied arsenal like the K-wing in a wierd place.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

Because it's better for the game to have ordnance be overcosted and ignored instead of undercosted and dominant. 

Hard disagree there for a few reasons. For one, because ordinance has more value on 2 attack than 3 attack ships it isn't hard to sorta slide in strong ordinance on ships that need it and weak on ones that don't. For another, being encouraged to fill upgrade slots rather than discouraged makes the game have more axises of balance and variance between ship types.

The main issue with the K-wing isn't so much ordinance is bad (it really isn't anyway, its one of the few upgrades you can get a lot of value from on non-aces and aces alike), it is that the K-wing is, in reality, not a very good ordinance ship, especially in the rebel faction where the Y-wing is almost a gold standard for being a great torp boat, with a slimmer profile, more base maneuverability, and extremely strong pilots, one of whom has very explicit synergy with torps.

19 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

Bombs should do more reliable damage but require you to work to line it up. Trajedy simulator is so good that bombs have to be weak in response, which to me makes it bad game design.  the card should be a unique mod or pilot ability for one ship(likely Tie bombers) that could then be balanced around how brutal it is

This makes no sense. If Tragedy sim is such a huge upgrade to bombs to the point the combo would be too strong, but bombs alone would be fine, why is the cost of the sim being applied to bombs? It isn't, and a lot of the best bomb lists in the game's history don't use Tragedy Simulator, and bombs actually do show up from time to time.

Furthermore, you DO need to work to line up a Tragedy simulator shot, because it still has the main weakness of bombs (requiring a hard read, because your opponent always knows where the bomb will end up if you launch it or drop it) while also occurring in a position that is not as easy to 'trap' someone in. People WANT to stay in rear arcs, it makes it easy to maintain uptime. People don't want to be 5 directly in front of you, so Tragedy simulator doesn't really do much more than forcibly breaks up jousty swarms (to which I say... good) and punishes REALLY sloppy flying (Maybe don't fly directly in front of the bomber?). In reality, that zone the Tragedy simulator controls is essentially your bullseye arc at range 3, which is trivial to avoid, especially vs most bomber chasises.

It is telling that proton bombs are in the top 10% of upgrades, while trajectory simulator is in the bottom 50%. The value in forcing your opponent to carefully consider entering range 1 rear arc of where you started this turn (literally the best spot you can be in X-wing vs 99% of ships, as it means they can't fire back without stress and without an extreme maneuver you WILL be able to shoot them and continue to chase them) is titanic. There are other problems with bombs where certain ships can use them to effectively shoot both at their final position front and rear AND protect one of their sides by doing a hard turn with a bomb (Why is it always Boba...?) but that has nothing to do with trajectory simulator and has everything to do with a very limited number of ships.

Trajectory simulator only is a problem when a ship already has a lot of arc coverage, because suddenly that extra danger zone becomes oppressive, but even then arc coverage ships like the Resistance Bomber often choose to not take it on their top lists, which says a lot for how actually not powerful at all it is.

Saying the Trajectory Simulator 'needs to be weak' is probably the pinnacle of 1.0 legacy hysteria towards any and all options outside of modding and aces because of how... fundamentally not a problem the upgrade is. It basically doesn't do anything if your opponent has any sense. Is it annoying to be forced to avoid the danger zone? Well, sure, but trying to avoid options that ever disrupt basic game plans at all cost because they are 'annoying' is actually the bad game design, especially in a game where players customize their options: You WANT for players to sometimes be forced to not do the obvious thing of getting aggressive on a chunky bomber and hardcore jousting their face, because if no strategy exists that can say 'no, don't do that, try something else' then the game becomes stagnant.

I don't think lacking a tragedy sim is the K-wing's real problem (though getting a sensor slot would certainly give you a reason to take it over the Y!), but I also think it is pretty silly to say one of the worse performing upgrades in the game is a design limiter to something that clearly isn't being held back.

Edited by dezzmont

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On 5/22/2020 at 4:50 PM, Cpt ObVus said:

Yeeeees, I can see that. 🙂 But some of the ships with a turret primary can hold a turret upgrade as well. I’d love to slap an Ion Cannon Turret on this thing to give it a bit more punch.

I really like the idea of adding an additional mobile arc to the K. 

Maybe have it be a config that overrides the double Missiles, so you get either a strafing K or a gunship K. 

Definitely would want a flagship new pilot ability to make the config shine as well. 

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I don't necessarily want two sets of mobile arcs, since I think that just gets confusing.  I'd be more inclined to just let a Primary-Weapon-Turret ship use any turret upgrades with any of their existing turret arcs (well, for non-Huge ships).  A K-Wing paying 5 points to get Ion Cannon Turret shots seems fair to me.  At very least, I think FFG ought to write up some rules on how such a thing would work.

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Posted (edited)

Primary turret + gunner slot

Rebels:

Falcon

YT-2400

 

Resistance:

Falcon

Starfortress

 

Empire:

Decimator

 

Scum:

Customized YT-1300

 

Back to topic:

KWings might be not very appealing on themselves but (as normal for rebels) may really shine if combined into squads for synergie or in a bad *** list variant:

Dash Rendar (91)
K-2SO (8)
Outrider (14)

Warden Squadron Pilot (38)
Cluster Missiles (5)

Warden Squadron Pilot (38)
Cluster Missiles (5)
Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Edited by Banjo79

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1 hour ago, Banjo79 said:

Primary turret + gunner slot

Rebels:

Falcon

YT-2400

 

Resistance:

Falcon

Starfortress

 

Empire:

Decimator

 

Scum:

Customized YT-1300

 

Back to topic:

KWings might be not very appealing on themselves but (as normal for rebels) may really shine if combined into squads for synergie or in a bad *** list variant:

Dash Rendar (91)
K-2SO (8)
Outrider (14)

Warden Squadron Pilot (38)
Cluster Missiles (5)

Warden Squadron Pilot (38)
Cluster Missiles (5)
Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

I think the problem is that the list you outlined above is extremely similar to this:

Dash Rendar (91)    
    K-2SO (8)    
    Outrider (14)    
    
Ship total: 113  Half Points: 57  Threshold: 5    
    
"Dutch" Vander (40)    
    Ion Torpedoes (6)    
    
Ship total: 46  Half Points: 23  Threshold: 4    
    
Evaan Verlaine (35)    
    Ion Torpedoes (6)    
    
Ship total: 41  Half Points: 21  Threshold: 4    
    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z39XWWW314WW157WY27XWW135WWWWY28XWW135WWWW&sn=Turret Party&obs=
 

...and this is probably stronger. I could be wrong, and maybe it’s a question of preference, but I don’t think having 1 more shield makes up for the downside of being a medium base. I also think SLAM is awesome, but unless the K-Wing is given a way to bypass the Disarm token as literally every other SLAM ship can do, Barrel Roll is usually the better action. Especially when you factor in how much worse the K-Wing’s maneuver chart is.

Long story short: If there are redeeming factors to the K-Wing, they have to do with things like the Crew slot and the unique pilot abilities on Esege and Miranda... they’ve got to be found in doing things Y-Wings can’t do, because the Y-Wing seems to do just about all the things they can BOTH do, better.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Cpt ObVus said:

...and this is probably stronger. I could be wrong, and maybe it’s a question of preference, but I don’t think having 1 more shield makes up for the downside of being a medium base. I also think SLAM is awesome, but unless the K-Wing is given a way to bypass the Disarm token as literally every other SLAM ship can do, Barrel Roll is usually the better action. Especially when you factor in how much worse the K-Wing’s maneuver chart is.

 

When you have 2 Trade Droids and a Nantex trying to punch Esege in the butt, you are going to be glad you can SLAM some odd 8 distance away using banks rather than lazily rolling to the side.

I get what you mean by not being able to offensively SLAM, but it is good that not every ship with SLAM can ignore that it is primarily intended to move ya, otherwise they wouldn't have much reason to bake the disarm into the rules, and being able to 'nope' a 9 health ship out of any situation is deceptively strong because its hard for most lists to kill a K-wing in one go, meaning that parachute has more value than one might think as it places your opponent in a dillema.

1 hour ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Long story short: If there are redeeming factors to the K-Wing, they have to do with things like the Crew slot and the unique pilot abilities on Esege and Miranda... they’ve got to be found in doing things Y-Wings can’t do, because the Y-Wing seems to do just about all the things they can BOTH do, better.

This I heavily agree with. Like I said, the K-wing is pretty bad as a munitions carrier and I have even experimented with not using barrage rockets to mixed success it is so meh as a carrier, which aren't really an offensive tool on the ship so much as a way for it to protect its front arc at long range and force people to get close.

One of the other flaws with it is that it doesn't combo with Y-wings very well just due to your list becoming way too easy to 'dive.' Its a shame because the idea of Dutch and Esege is great, but you just are too vulnerable without something able to stick closer like an X wing in there. And if you are flying a mixed fleet rather than trying to max ship count, giving up Ys and kinda sorta Us as well is a huuuuge cost, as those are two big draws to kitchen sink Rebel.

Edited by dezzmont

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I'll add again that I think there's a lot the devs can do with the K-Wing as a toolbox platform, and I look forward to any new creative pilots or configs that make the chassis shine and hit the competitive tables in a new way. 

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11 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I also think SLAM is awesome, but unless the K-Wing is given a way to bypass the Disarm token as literally every other SLAM ship can do, Barrel Roll is usually the better action. Especially when you factor in how much worse the K-Wing’s maneuver chart is.

To add to @dezzmont's point above, a straight-3 into SLAM straight-3 on a Medium base equates to 7.5 bases of movement, which is a lot of movement (for comparison, a 5-straight boost on a small base, or 4-straight boost on a large base gets you to 7). The ship has many problems, but having the speed to flank or disengage is certainly not one of them.

That raw speed allowed by SLAM is why all of the ships with it have decidedly average dials. The Gunboat and Fireball have better, but still limited ones (note that the 4-speed move on both is red, and while the Fireball can T-Roll it can only do so off a 3-straight or 3-bank), and they only really get away with that because they're small bases so don't go quite as far.

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Quote

The ship has many problems, but having the speed to flank or disengage is certainly not one of them.

While I don't disagree that it has the speed, the flanking threat is low since it can't attack when it gets there. 

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5 minutes ago, Target_2.0 said:

While I don't disagree that it has the speed, the flanking threat is low since it can't attack when it gets there. 

That would be one of the many other problems I mentioned. 😉

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