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Crabbok

What if FFG created another brand new ship?

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7 minutes ago, Grand Admiral Buford said:

Dude, when you discuss the game, you provide really good points for discussion. Very well articulated and reasoned even if I and others do not always agree, they are good. Your problem is that if someone disagrees with you, you get angry and defensive so fast that we all forget that you can and do make valid points elsewhere and can only see your petty tirades worthy of a petulant teenager. Try to lighten up, not take everything said as a personal attack and just enjoy the wonderful discourse about this great game. Don't bother to respond to me on this comment as I will not get dragged into one of your endless rants either, I am only pointing out how you come across to the vast majority of posters here.

I don't get angry. This is how I post. I reply to posts, regardless if they're replies to my posts or an original comment someone else has posted. I like to have conversations, not post a superficial comment or inane joke and move on.

The problem here -- and most forums and comments sections in general -- is that people don't like their opinions to be challenged in any way. They don't want a dialogue or discussion; they just want "Likes" and Followers. Whereas I enjoy debating. I'm good at it, for the reasons you recognized. I'm looking for a worthy opponent who is capable of arguing their side in the same way as I do; with facts, reason, and logical deductions, and is willing to make an effort. If I have a problem, it's that I tend to bulldoze people using those techniques. My arguments are designed to be unimpeachable, which is why no can refute them, or even tries.

Instead, they redirect the conversation in a subjective, emotional detour by accusing me of going off on "rants" or "tirades" and being "angry". An angry person doesn't compose replies the way I do. We've all seen ANGRY posts before. They tend to be short, often in ALL CAPS, riddled with profanity, and unmistakably emotionally volatile. That's because an angry person has a knee-jerk reaction and has to post their hot-headed reply immediately. They're not going to take 5-10 minutes to write a 1000 word post with proper punctuation, sentence structure, and point-by-point breakdown of the inciting incident. So by mischaracterizing my posts as "angry" you are only degrading your argument.

It's a trap to characterize me as "defensive" because how can anyone defend him/herself without appearing "defensive" to people? 🙄 If it's the choice between remaining silent and replying, I choose to reply. The only people who have a problem with that are the ones already prejudiced against me. An unbiased person should recognize and appreciate that replying to a post directed at you is a perfectly reasonable response.

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26 minutes ago, Formynder4 said:

You don't say? That was rather obvious from the links. So clearly any reference to reading would've been to the two articles. 

As for videos, you don't have to watch every second to grab a gist and see where they're going. 

Congratulations:

Quote

Definition of ignorance

: the state or fact of being ignorant : lack of knowledge, education, or awareness

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20 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Alright this thread isn't going anywhere. I will make my own thread if this continues.

There are legit posts about the OP topic mixed in with all the BS.

We can't help it if no one replies to those on-topic posts, or other people don't join the topic conversation.

IMO too many people on this forum have an inexplicable aversion to speculation and theory-crafting. These threads tend to die premature deaths because of lack of interest, or they get shutdown by buzzkills. If you dare to speculate, the buzzkills pounce on you and say "speculation is pointless" and "just wait until FFG announces something. Until then, shut up!"

If you can keep those buzzkills away from these types of threads, we might be able to hold a civil, on-topic conversation for once.

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5 hours ago, Piratical Moustache said:

I don't know if you were responding to me but I haven't said anything about new things being bad, I personally didn't like what we got but if you did then that's fine. 

I would like it to be Ion based but what would be the complimentary dice? If it's black then MC30 comparisons would be inevitable.

I wasn't replying to you with that image macro.

I'd love a Combat Ion Medium.  Maybe the other can be a mix of black and blue dice but with an anti-squadron focus?

 

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12 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

I wasn't replying to you with that image macro.

I'd love a Combat Ion Medium.  Maybe the other can be a mix of black and blue dice but with an anti-squadron focus?

 

All you really have to do is give it black dice, but no Ord upgrade and it won’t step on the MC30s toes

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Just now, shmitty said:

All you really have to do is give it black dice, but no Ord upgrade and it won’t step on the MC30s toes

But I want it to have the Ordnance upgrades that help anti-squadron, hence medium base.

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

I wasn't replying to you with that image macro.

I'd love a Combat Ion Medium.  Maybe the other can be a mix of black and blue dice but with an anti-squadron focus?

 

All blue dice ships and dedicated anti-squadron ships are the only unfilled niches that I can think of, but some people seem to be against the latter. I get that if you went up against a squadronless list the ship would be useless but so would any TIE fighters or interceptors you may have had, so I see little difference in the end. Armada list building is guesswork so an anti-squadron ship would be just another coin toss. 

Somewhat unrelated but does anyone else think that the turbolaser upgrades are relatively boring in comparison to the ion and ordinance upgrades? There isn't anything that comes close to HIEs or ACMs in that slot. 

Edited by Piratical Moustache
Added the second part.

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Super excited to get more Force Sensitive Finn - https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/john-boyegas-finn-will-reportedly-use-the-force-in-future-star-wars-projects.html/

Sorry that isn't on topic though.

What would the Imperials get with a small Imperial Frigate/Corvette?  Maybe a cheaper non-broadside Turbolaser forward ship, cheaper than the Arq?

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7 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

LTTs are pretty sweet.

Yeah the reroll is handy and that one squadron heavy attack is cool, but interesting crit effects are missing in the turbo slot. 

6 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

Not trying to get back into ST division but that is what I wanted for John's character all along, a stormtrooper turned Jedi. I don't understand why Lucasfilm effectively wasted Boyega on a side character. 

10 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

What would the Imperials get with a small Imperial Frigate/Corvette?  Maybe a cheaper non-broadside Turbolaser forward ship, cheaper than the Arq?

I would love a CR90 rough analog for the Empire, something that can fill small awkward points gaps in a list. Arquitens are a nice ship but they require some investment to get good results. A CR90 only needs one upgrade to be a major nuisance to your opponent and the Empire doesn't have that. Maybe the game balance requires that doesn't happen for the Empire but it doesn't stop me from wanting a ship like that.

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8 hours ago, Piratical Moustache said:

All blue dice ships and dedicated anti-squadron ships are the only unfilled niches that I can think of, but some people seem to be against the latter. I get that if you went up against a squadronless list the ship would be useless but so would any TIE fighters or interceptors you may have had, so I see little difference in the end. Armada list building is guesswork so an anti-squadron ship would be just another coin toss. 

Somewhat unrelated but does anyone else think that the turbolaser upgrades are relatively boring in comparison to the ion and ordinance upgrades? There isn't anything that comes close to HIEs or ACMs in that slot. 

Last night I dreamed Annihilator had got an extra piece of wording that said something like "treat your attacks as if you were attacking squadrons". Of course some clarification would be needed (it was just a dream were I was finding fun combos, I even had to check the app in the morning, lol). But an upgrade that allows you to use some of your antisquadron stuff against ships could help if a price is paid, like crits not counting, maybe. LTT would let you add two dice, HFZ would let you fire at long range. The effect don't have to be this, but the idea of getting use of some of your investment against the squadron at a price could work.

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13 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

Super excited to get more Force Sensitive Finn - https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/john-boyegas-finn-will-reportedly-use-the-force-in-future-star-wars-projects.html/

Sorry that isn't on topic though.

What would the Imperials get with a small Imperial Frigate/Corvette?  Maybe a cheaper non-broadside Turbolaser forward ship, cheaper than the Arq?

 

12 hours ago, Piratical Moustache said:

Yeah the reroll is handy and that one squadron heavy attack is cool, but interesting crit effects are missing in the turbo slot. 

Not trying to get back into ST division but that is what I wanted for John's character all along, a stormtrooper turned Jedi. I don't understand why Lucasfilm effectively wasted Boyega on a side character. 

I would love a CR90 rough analog for the Empire, something that can fill small awkward points gaps in a list. Arquitens are a nice ship but they require some investment to get good results. A CR90 only needs one upgrade to be a major nuisance to your opponent and the Empire doesn't have that. Maybe the game balance requires that doesn't happen for the Empire but it doesn't stop me from wanting a ship like that.

I'd like some mix of Cr90, HH and neb.

Small ship. Cr90-like firing arcs. 5 hull. Speed 3. Yaws: II, II-I, I-I-I. Shields 3-1-1. Battery armament 3R frontal, 1R sides, 2R rear. AA 1U. 2 evades, 1 salvo. Slots: officer, turbo, support team. Command 1, squadrons 1, engineering 2

The expensive version could have an AA of 2U and maybe add a die on the sides.

It could have a weapons team slot but I wasn't sure if the risk of having a 7 point upgrade in such a weak ship was enough to prevent people from using gunnery team. Also RS with HFZ would definitely kill the raider as an antisquadron platform. So I choose to not provide that slot. The cost should be cheaper than a Cr90/raider as defensively it really sucks. I am worried about a spam of this with Romodi being a thing but not sure given the lack of defense tokens. You cannot evade twice the same attack and salvo is not gonna save you. These things gonna pop really quick if you shoot them on the side. It makes a nice support ship though, providing good long range fire and decent flak. The support team is there just in case you want to increase its survivability (AST) or want something special (FCT, ET ir even projection expert). No defense retrofit to fit the Imperial doctrine and to avoid CRambo lists. It's not like that slot was ever used on an cr90 until RBD and if I'm gonna deny that by either choosing support team or defensive retrofit I rather choose support team to provide more support options for the fleet.

I really like it but that's not a surprise when I designed it myself, lol. Here you have your cheap fill-the-gap ship that you can toss on almost any list spicing it with just one upgrade.

Support fire? TRC or DTT

Flak platform? HFZ

Mix? LTT

Squadron shenanigans? FCT

I really like the fact that you see it and you know you can potentially one-shot it but, man, that salvo gonna hurt, lol.

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Let's toss a title!

Radiant - 4 points

After you deploy you may replace one of your defense token with a salvo defense token. 

While defending you may spend up to two tokens of the same type.

 

You may get two good use of this. You may replace an evade for the salvo to double salvo. You're gonna go down fighting. Or you may don't replace a token for double evade (not Foresight but kind of).

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The main issue restricting design space with an Imp small is the 2 guys running the Empire. Palpatine with (let's say) a scout slaved turrets hammerhead equivalent and SFOs and officer Vader could take out almost any ship. Same with admiral vader and no SFOs. Red dice for imperials come in either expensive neb equivalents (arqs) or issues with squishiness (Cymoons).

To get something cheap youd likely have to outfit it like a torp hammer without the ordnance slot (1-1-1, maybe similar for the sides). No ordnance slot because then it replaces the Raider.

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5 minutes ago, geek19 said:

 

To get something cheap youd likely have to outfit it like a torp hammer without the ordnance slot (1-1-1, maybe similar for the sides). No ordnance slot because then it replaces the Raider.

Does it worth it?

I mean, you could make it an expensive flotilla. It would be a small ship for all purposes but the fact that it cannot be flagship, no more than two (already taking the place of a gozanti) so no spam and no flagship.

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3 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Does it worth it?

I mean, you could make it an expensive flotilla. It would be a small ship for all purposes but the fact that it cannot be flagship, no more than two (already taking the place of a gozanti) so no spam and no flagship.

I mean, you already have the red dice flot that sees more use than a combat GR. Romodi doesnt help the equation either, as these become 2 dicers then. With easier access to offensive retrofit slots (aka Dcaps) its iffy adding in blue dice too.

What all that means? It means I'm not a designer and dont envy whoever has to thread the needle hahaha.

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1 hour ago, geek19 said:

The main issue restricting design space with an Imp small is the 2 guys running the Empire. Palpatine with (let's say) a scout slaved turrets hammerhead equivalent and SFOs and officer Vader could take out almost any ship. Same with admiral vader and no SFOs. Red dice for imperials come in either expensive neb equivalents (arqs) or issues with squishiness (Cymoons).

To get something cheap youd likely have to outfit it like a torp hammer without the ordnance slot (1-1-1, maybe similar for the sides). No ordnance slot because then it replaces the Raider.

I am not totally clear why they would be so amazing because I haven't played anywhere near as much as you have.

 

Can you explain in a bit more detail please?

 

I suppose that you would at least start to see Palpatine used as a commander...

 

 

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53 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I mean, you already have the red dice flot that sees more use than a combat GR. Romodi doesnt help the equation either, as these become 2 dicers then. With easier access to offensive retrofit slots (aka Dcaps) its iffy adding in blue dice too.

What all that means? It means I'm not a designer and dont envy whoever has to thread the needle hahaha.

I thought about it but the scatter is a big difference here. Two evades an a salvo is really easy to destroy even with three dice pools. Also there is the cost difference. I'm talking about a ship cheaper than a Cr90 but no that cheap.

But yes, I was worried about Romodi and spaming those things. That's why I made it really weak. It could be 2R on the front. But I really think with that defense tokens and those shields these are gonna blow up as soon as they are in sight. With no weapon teams you cannot get advantage of the frontal arc and with the side shields you don't want to double arc. So you are gonna play with one attack only.

But I dunno. I like the arq but it's true that it's not easy to fit it in imperial fleets either cause the cost or the different tactic. And while combat gozanti is ok, it's quite limited. Maybe it would be easier to just make an 10 points upgrade that removed the flotilla rule for flotillas, lol.

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6 hours ago, flatpackhamster said:

I am not totally clear why they would be so amazing because I haven't played anywhere near as much as you have.

Can you explain in a bit more detail please?

I suppose that you would at least start to see Palpatine used as a commander...

Sure, so, if we pretend we just port a Scout Hammerhead over to the Empire we get something like the below.

[ flagship ] Imperial Star Destroyer Cymoon 1 Refit (112 points)
-  Darth Vader (com)  ( 36  points)
 Avenger  ( 5  points)
-  Strategic Adviser  ( 4  points)
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points)
-  XI7 Turbolasers  ( 6  points)
-  Spinal Armament  ( 9  points)
-  Entrapment Formation!  ( 5  points)
= 184 total ship cost

Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41 points)
-  Slaved Turrets  ( 6  points)
= 47 total ship cost

Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41 points)
-  Slaved Turrets  ( 6  points)
= 47 total ship cost

Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41 points)
-  Slaved Turrets  ( 6  points)
= 47 total ship cost

Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41 points)
-  Slaved Turrets  ( 6  points)
= 47 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
 Suppressor  ( 4  points)
-  Comms Net  ( 2  points)
= 29 total ship cost

So it's 7 activations and each of those hammers throws 3 red (if its NOT con firing, and with EF and a solid nav chart, they are).  So it's 4 red and a free reroll every time because they're 47 points, who cares.  You can lose 2 and table someone and still get a 306 point win (and that assumes no points from your objectives, either!)  Mind you, i just threw this together quickly, and you could optimize it even more if you wanted to, but it's an example.  You can achieve similarly with Palpatine and Officer Vader on the Gozanti choking out whatever Skilled First Officer you throw on the ship just to ensure you're getting damage out.  Palps has such an oppressive ability that he's costed as expensively as he is, and if you had a way of doing multiple sources of damage repeatedly in one turn.... that's why the most successful Palp builds (IMO) have been things with a bunch of squads just to repeatedly hammer you and your tokens all on one turn.

Vader its a different but similar boat in that if you have a "disposable" defense token for the reroll, (points at Arquitens and contains for example), your damage floor is a bit higher than expected from the ship normally.  If you look at your standard Vader admiral ships they have a token they don't mind spending once or twice for that damage.

THEORETICALLY you could port it over and upcharge it I guess, but how much do you upcharge it, AND how much do you then run the risk of the Empire bleeding into the Rebellion as a playstyle/faction? Arqs are upcosted sideways Nebs, but they live a bit better (running away you say?) and are trying to do different things enough (Arqs seem more harassers and just constant damage over time IMO, Nebs decided they want to be David and go fight Goliath).  How do you port a CR90/HH over and get it in a similar role (Harasser that runs and harasser that takes 2 shots to die from an ISD, so go down swinging) for the Empire AND keep them unique as a faction? Not sure, really.

If you want to get use out of Palpatine (not that you were asking, but I talk to them enough about these commanders that they're worth mentioning) I'd hit up @rasproteus or @duck_bird.

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6 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I thought about it but the scatter is a big difference here. Two evades an a salvo is really easy to destroy even with three dice pools. Also there is the cost difference. I'm talking about a ship cheaper than a Cr90 but no that cheap.

But yes, I was worried about Romodi and spaming those things. That's why I made it really weak. It could be 2R on the front. But I really think with that defense tokens and those shields these are gonna blow up as soon as they are in sight. With no weapon teams you cannot get advantage of the frontal arc and with the side shields you don't want to double arc. So you are gonna play with one attack only.

But I dunno. I like the arq but it's true that it's not easy to fit it in imperial fleets either cause the cost or the different tactic. And while combat gozanti is ok, it's quite limited. Maybe it would be easier to just make an 10 points upgrade that removed the flotilla rule for flotillas, lol.

I think if you're going to do it, you make a ship without a turbolaser slot for the empire.  Specifically because as i realize Vader and con fires means 4 rerollable red and ewwww. Romodi its potentially 5, just need an officer to shove on these things for vader to kill.  Anything cheap enough for SFO and Slaved is potentially terrifying even if you add no other upgrades. Heck, even then without the turbolaser slot Romodi makes it 4 dice, and ick.  Especially if you throw in any blue dice and DCaps.  There's just a lot of minefields for potential negative player experiences in there.

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