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What if FFG created another brand new ship?

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On 5/25/2020 at 9:17 AM, Reavern said:

Rieeken, Dodonna, Raddus, and Ackbar are all amazing Commanders that give Rebels a significant combat advantage. Ironically, the Empire doesn’t have commanders that boost its combat power to the same degree. Granted, Vader’s reroll ability is powerful, but he’s 36 points and must exhaust defense tokens for rerolls; whereas Ackbar’s ability to add 2 red dice to side arcs is far superior for only 2 points more.

LMFAO.. I'll give you Raddus, that is all.

Someones forgetting Sloane exists.. or Remodi.. Or Thrawn. Rieekan used to very good, now he affects 1 ship or 1 squadron per turn, not nearly as powerful as he once was and a lot harder to trigger now especially against Imp 5 activation+ which is meta.

I'd rather have thrawn over Rieekan and have Dual Eng and Squad commands for 3 turns, OR sloane just burning away tokens. Raddus who is semi broken anyway with his 'defacto distance 4 drop' is the only Rebel commander who really sits up top with the Imperials best.

On 5/26/2020 at 6:16 AM, TallGiraffe said:

4278h.png 4276h.png

These are my old MC-40 concepts, but I would probably move a die from the front of the cruiser to the rear along with adding a Salvo token for an interesting brawler. Add in a title for the carrier and maybe a title for the cruiser that adds some hull or something.

 

43 minutes ago, Cap116 said:

I went with this version of the MC40, one version as a blue die carrier, 1 as a light combatant, I like the options they have now with the Exp Shield Tech and aux shield team, or with Local Fire control....but maybe the double black on the escort should move to double red...

9721h (6).jpg

9724h (5).jpg

Both sets interesting concept ships.

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1 hour ago, EbonHawk said:

LMFAO.. I'll give you Raddus, that is all.

Someones forgetting Sloane exists.. or Remodi.. Or Thrawn. Rieekan used to very good, now he affects 1 ship or 1 squadron per turn, not nearly as powerful as he once was and a lot harder to trigger now especially against Imp 5 activation+ which is meta.

I'd rather have thrawn over Rieekan and have Dual Eng and Squad commands for 3 turns, OR sloane just burning away tokens. Raddus who is semi broken anyway with his 'defacto distance 4 drop' is the only Rebel commander who really sits up top with the Imperials best.

It seems that your reading comprehension is woefully lacking -- or more likely, you're just trolling my posts hunting for something to criticize, which is pathetically petty.

Read what I wrote again and take all the time you need to try to understand it:

On 5/25/2020 at 4:17 AM, Reavern said:

Rieeken, Dodonna, Raddus, and Ackbar are all amazing Commanders that give Rebels a significant combat advantage. Ironically, the Empire doesn’t have commanders that boost its combat power to the same degree.

What Imperial Commander adds 2 Red dice to the attack pool?

None.

Romodi only adds 1 red die and prevents a die from being removed from the attack pool if the attack is obstructed. Also, Romodi's ability can't be utilized as freely as Ackbar's. That's what I meant when I wrote the Empire doesn't have Commanders that boost their combat power to the same degree as certain Rebel Commanders. Ackbar adds 2 red dice, Romodi only adds 1 red die; that makes my statement objectively true.

Sloane's ability allows squadrons to spend enemy ship's defense tokens (or reroll a Crit), degrading their defenses; she doesn't boost those squadrons' attacks.

I don't understand why people like you "think" that Thrawn is a Combat Commander. His ability is to use extra Command Dials. The player's choice of the 3 dials placed on Thrawn's card determine how he's used. If Thrawn chooses Concentrate Fire command dials, Thrawn isn't boosting ships' attacks, the CF commands are. And the CF command only adds 1 die, whereas Ackbar adds 2.

 

I'll reiterate my original point, because it obviously eluded you the first time: Given the Empire's penchant for using overwhelming force, massive warships, superior numbers, intimidation/fear tactics, and superweapons, it's ironic that the Empire's Commanders in Armada don't boost their attacks to the same degree as certain Rebel Commanders.

The Imperial Commanders that have Combat-oriented abilities often have drawbacks. Vader grants rerolls, yes, but he spends a ship's defense tokens to do it. Vader sacrifices defense in favour of offense; it's a give and a take. Screed has to remove a die to change another die to a face with a Crit. Again, it's a give and a take. Romodi's ability has no downsides, but it's restricted to obstructed shots.

Rieeken, Raddus, and Dodonna's abilities don't have those types of restrictions, or a give-&-take nature. And Ackbar's only restriction is attacking from side arcs, which isn't a problem for most Rebel ships.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Reavern said:

It seems that your reading comprehension is woefully lacking -- or more likely, you're just trolling my posts hunting for something to criticize, which is pathetically petty.

Read what I wrote again and take all the time you need to try to understand it:

What Imperial Commander adds 2 Red dice to the attack pool?

None.

Romodi only adds 1 red die and prevents a die from being removed from the attack pool if the attack is obstructed. Also, Romodi's ability can't be utilized as freely as Ackbar's. That's what I meant when I wrote the Empire doesn't have Commanders that boost their combat power to the same degree as certain Rebel Commanders. Ackbar adds 2 red dice, Romodi only adds 1 red die; that makes my statement objectively true.

Sloane's ability allows squadrons to spend enemy ship's defense tokens (or reroll a Crit), degrading their defenses; she doesn't boost those squadrons' attacks.

I don't understand why people like you "think" that Thrawn is a Combat Commander. His ability is to use extra Command Dials. The player's choice of the 3 dials placed on Thrawn's card determine how he's used. If Thrawn chooses Concentrate Fire command dials, Thrawn isn't boosting ships' attacks, the CF commands are. And the CF command only adds 1 die, whereas Ackbar adds 2.

 

I'll reiterate my original point, because it obviously eluded you the first time: Given the Empire's penchant for using overwhelming force, massive warships, superior numbers, intimidation/fear tactics, and superweapons, it's ironic that the Empire's Commanders in Armada don't boost their attacks to the same degree as certain Rebel Commanders.

The Imperial Commanders that have Combat-oriented abilities often have drawbacks. Vader grants rerolls, yes, but he spends a ship's defense tokens to do it. Vader sacrifices defense in favour of offense; it's a give and a take. Screed has to remove a die to change another die to a face with a Crit. Again, it's a give and a take. Romodi's ability has no downsides, but it's restricted to obstructed shots.

Rieeken, Raddus, and Dodonna's abilities don't have those types of restrictions, or a give-&-take nature. And Ackbar's only restriction is attacking from side arcs, which isn't a problem for most Rebel ships.

Pedantic's, regardless if its the same 'degree', the Empire has better admirals overall, trying to say they don't just because Ackbar gives 2 dice is pedantic's... as you could argue without Remodi if rolling 2 dice you only roll 1, but with him you roll 3.. net difference. Sloane is boosting, are you crazy?? Your trading an acc to spend/burn a token.. how does that not help combat?

Ackbars restriction is you're very obvious how you want to fly, and likely have 1 shot at max per ship unless you have GT.

Rieekan you literally have to die, and again in 5+ activation imp meta he's not great at all, arguing he is lol imo.

Dodonna you have to get crits, which is again a lot harder with so many ships running DCOs, or Brunsons etc

 

Your arguing Rebels are better, and they just aren't. End off.

Edited by EbonHawk

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Reavern said:

Given the Empire's penchant for using overwhelming force, massive warships, superior numbers, intimidation/fear tactics, and superweapons, it's ironic that the Empire's Commanders in Armada don't boost their attacks to the same degree as certain Rebel Commanders.

Could have just started here. No point devoting another thread to arguing about nothing, eh?

As to your point, I agree.

Though I think you kinda stated the reason why yourself. Taken by themselves the Imperial ships are more durable and typically more powerful than the rebel counterparts. 

The rebel ships  are usually either frail and need commanders to boost them to survive (Madine, Mothma, Agate, Reikaan) or are weak and need commanders to boost them to attack (Akbar, Sato, Dodonna) 

As a side note, canonically, it makes sense. The Imperials during the GCW were well trained tactically, and the rebels were more about leveraging offensive counter attacks or amushes against a superior enemy. The First Order, being even more about show of force tactics was partially manned by ex imperial officers. In some of the books they get into how the Imperials looked down on the new officers because of the lack of training and experience as well as bad leadership decisions. (Hux for instance was known as an unstable and tactically useless leader, but was kept in leadership by Snoke as means to manipulate him for his technological advances.) 


(also as a side note, anyone who can answer, how many red dice would you have to roll with vader to make him more valuable than straight adding 2 dice like akbar? I have to figure rerolls are pretty valuable and red dice are fickle is there a point where rolling enough dice with a reroll out values straight adding dice?)

Edited by Darth Sanguis

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Posted (edited)

 

The expected value of a red die is 0.75. If you have reroll it climbes to 1. 

So Ackbar adds a straight boost of 1.5 average damage, regardless how many dice you have. 

Vader adds 0.25 per red die, so if you have a ship with 6 red die the expected value of the roll with the reroll is 6.

A ship with also 6 dice and Ackbar actually has 8 dice. The expected value of this roll is 

E = 6*0.75 + 2*0.75 = 6.

So at six dice its even. At seven or more Vader is better. 

( for the sake of this quick math, I only used red dice, and only the commanders ability. Note when I say die or dice I always mean red dice. ) 

 

Edited by sasska

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2 hours ago, EbonHawk said:

Pedantic's, regardless if its the same 'degree', the Empire has better admirals overall, trying to say they don't just because Ackbar gives 2 dice is pedantic's... as you could argue without Remodi if rolling 2 dice you only roll 1, but with him you roll 3.. net difference. Sloane is boosting, are you crazy?? Your trading an acc to spend/burn a token.. how does that not help combat?

Ackbars restriction is you're very obvious how you want to fly, and likely have 1 shot at max per ship unless you have GT.

Rieekan you literally have to die, and again in 5+ activation imp meta he's not great at all, arguing he is lol imo.

Dodonna you have to get crits, which is again a lot harder with so many ships running DCOs, or Brunsons etc

 

Your arguing Rebels are better, and they just aren't. End off.

It's not pedantic, it's your fundamental lack of understanding, particularly regarding specific points.

Points matter -- in this case, a point of contention. And that's an example of semantics😎

Your basic level of understanding is the problem. You seem to prefer simplistic, blanket statements like "The Imperial Commanders are better overall."

Fine, you can have that simplistic opinion -- just as a sports fan might claim, "The Yankees are the greatest baseball team!" Or "The Patriots are the greatest American football team!" There are facts that do support those statements, but presumably they wouldn't matter to you because if you examined the evidence point by point, in your mind that would be pedantic🙄

After all, the worst thing we could ever do on this forum is have a constructive conversation and stay-on-topic, without it devolving into trolling people we don't like.

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2 minutes ago, Reavern said:

It's not pedantic, it's your fundamental lack of understanding, particularly regarding specific points.

Points matter -- in this case, a point of contention. And that's an example of semantics😎

Your basic level of understanding is the problem. You seem to prefer simplistic, blanket statements like "The Imperial Commanders are better overall."

Fine, you can have that simplistic opinion -- just as a sports fan might claim, "The Yankees are the greatest baseball team!" Or "The Patriots are the greatest American football team!" There are facts that do support those statements, but presumably they wouldn't matter to you because if you examined the evidence point by point, in your mind that would be pedantic🙄

After all, the worst thing we could ever do on this forum is have a constructive conversation and stay-on-topic, without it devolving into trolling people we don't like.

come play mafia

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Posted (edited)

Returning to the OP topic:

While I absolutely want FFG to create a brand new ship, I can imagine that it's exceedingly difficult for a variety of reasons. I'll focus on the Star Wars license problem in this post.

Disney owns Star Wars and has ultimate creative control over it. Over 5 years ago, Disney discarded all Expanded Universe content to clear the table for the Disney Debacle Trilogy. Now that Dark Age is over, Disney is trying to set things right and I commend them for the positive steps that they're taking, but it's difficult to to recover the baby after it's been thrown out with the bath water.

The reason why it was foolish to jettison the EU was the sheer amount of EU content created over 30+ years dwarfs the Star Wars canon content. The EU was a gold mine of ships, starfighters, vehicles, weapons, characters, locations, and events that FFG could've used for Armada, Legion, and X-wing. But for the past 5 years, it was presumably difficult for FFG to convince Disney to let them draw inspiration from Legends sources because Kathleen the Great was pushing Debacle Era content instead.

There's so many crazy awesome things I'd love to see from the EU, like the Eclipse, Darksaber (ship), World Devastators, MC80B, MC90, Viscount-class Star Dreadnought, Mara Jade, the Chiss Ascendancy, Chiss Clawcraft, NR Nebula-class Star Destroyer/Defender, the Bothan Assault Cruiser/Carrier, NJO-era Star Destroyers with integrated grav-well projectors and long-range turbolasers, the Yuuzhan Vong, the Ssi-ruuk, the Lost Tribe of the Sith, the Killiks... the list could go on and on.

But all of those are Legends now and it doesn't seem like Disney wants to draw from that well. At best, they've been cherry picking things from Legends, one at a time, retooled them, and brought them into canon, very gradually. But I don't think Star Wars Armada is a priority for Disney and they're not willing to take the creative cuffs off the Star Wars license, give FFG free reign, and give permission to, "Do whatever you want, just make it awesome, and make us some GD'd money!" 🤑🤑🤑

 

Also, I think it's difficult to make new Rebel ships in particular because the existing ships in Armada cover all the bases. Yes, the Rebels could use another medium ship, but what will it do? Is it just going to be a copy of VSD, with a red-&-blue dice version and a red-&-black dice version? That's not very interesting. But the problem is that Rebel Alliance/New Republic didn't build "crazy" ships like the Empire. FFG has been able to break the mold with Imperial ships like the Interdictor, Quasar Fire, and Onager. The most "crazy" Rebel ship has been the Starhawk, which is basically just a bigger, better, meaner Star Destroyer -- with a "superweapon" that's not really a weapon.

So I understand that it's tricky for FFG to create a new and awesome ship for the Rebels.

Edited by Reavern
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Man I can't wait till they bring the Raddus into the game. Can you imagine Holdo admiral ability? Such a cool character. Maybe there would be Holdo sacrifice map like we have on vassal. I love the Alt art strategic advisor with her on it I got from the Scottish team.  Maybe even a campaign pack for the last movie where Lando is rounding up ships for the final battle.

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Instead of armed ships, I would love to see civillian ships in the game,

cargo ships, elegant cruise ships, troop ships,

New objectives with convoy duties, special ship protection, diplomatic escorts, prisoner rescue and etc. 

they can be used by both factions so perhaps a dual faction wave release ( even you can squeeze Dreadnought in there a pefect dual faction ship)

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On 5/28/2020 at 1:42 AM, TallGiraffe said:

I also got some concepts for the Imperials. Bear in mind these are before wave 7 was a thing.

6375h.jpg?cache=0  6215h.jpg?cache=0

 

2419h.jpg?cache=0  2418h.jpg?cache=0

I want the Vindicator to come back to Canon in some way really bad. Make the new Canon Interdictor a refit of a combat ship like how the Immobilizer was a refit of the Vindicator in Legends and I would be pretty happy. 

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I want to see the Republic Star Galleon for a dedicated carrier, this would allow for more use of AF-MK's for attack ships and maybe even reduce the number of Flotilla's coming to battle. I would also like to see Carrack/Lancer type ships dedicated to fighter destruction (maybe a specialized flotilla somewhere between the GR-75 and Hammerhead in cost). Bring on Dreadnoughts as a dual faction ship. 

Outside of those real wants. I still eagerly await the MC40, MC85, The Bulwark Heavy Cruiser, the Praetor and I'd be crazy if I didnt want to see a dedicated Eclipse SSD

Considering how many ships still remain, there could be alot of variation in fleets. I would love to see a major wave of 3 or 4 ships per side. Would really shake up the meta and allow some more diversity in fleets coming to table. With Clones wars around the corner (hopefully) there could be some real life breathed back into the game we all love.

 

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Well not NEW ships, I would love to get the Lodestar (Hera's acclamator-class carrier), a Rebel Quasar, or really... any rebel titles/cards for the old CMS/Republic ships that they rebels can now use.

 

 

If we want new ships, that FFG is designing from scratch for the 2 factions we have- I want a small/medium rebel dedicated carrier, with 4 squadron value, essentially no attack/defense tokens, and limited upgrade slots but is FAST. Goes speed 4 to stay with the squads, but has say the health of a CR-90 to go with it. 

 

For the empire, a fast all-brawler (black dice only) large ship sounds fun. make it speed 4, maneuverable (2 clicks at  1 and 2 at all speeds, and maybe at 3 for everything but speed 4) , but only has black dice so it has to get close to do something, but then it drops heaps on them on you/has nice generous double arcs. Also, can equip engine techs too.....

 

A multi-faction flak boat would be nice too. A small ship that either only has 1 red for ship attacks, or ONLY flak dice, but rolls 3-4 of them, combined with some nice upgrades that only it can equip against squads, would also be great to help deal with fighters.

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On 5/28/2020 at 6:42 AM, TallGiraffe said:

I also got some concepts for the Imperials. Bear in mind these are before wave 7 was a thing.

6375h.jpg?cache=0  6215h.jpg?cache=0

 

2419h.jpg?cache=0  2418h.jpg?cache=0

I was reading the bumph on the Imperial Support vessel. 

 

It looks like it has practically no shielding, front and rear arcs are its main arc, but it's incredibly rugged.  So maybe 1 shield on each position, 8 hull, double brace/contain and two defensive retrofit slots.  3 red 1 black out the front, 2 red 1 black out the rear, perhaps.

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On 5/27/2020 at 6:13 PM, Reavern said:

Returning to the OP topic:

While I absolutely want FFG to create a brand new ship, I can imagine that it's exceedingly difficult for a variety of reasons. I'll focus on the Star Wars license problem in this post.

Disney owns Star Wars and has ultimate creative control over it. Over 5 years ago, Disney discarded all Expanded Universe content to clear the table for the Disney Debacle Trilogy. Now that Dark Age is over, Disney is trying to set things right and I commend them for the positive steps that they're taking, but it's difficult to to recover the baby after it's been thrown out with the bath water.

The reason why it was foolish to jettison the EU was the sheer amount of EU content created over 30+ years dwarfs the Star Wars canon content. The EU was a gold mine of ships, starfighters, vehicles, weapons, characters, locations, and events that FFG could've used for Armada, Legion, and X-wing. But for the past 5 years, it was presumably difficult for FFG to convince Disney to let them draw inspiration from Legends sources because Kathleen the Great was pushing Debacle Era content instead.

There's so many crazy awesome things I'd love to see from the EU, like the Eclipse, Darksaber (ship), World Devastators, MC80B, MC90, Viscount-class Star Dreadnought, Mara Jade, the Chiss Ascendancy, Chiss Clawcraft, NR Nebula-class Star Destroyer/Defender, the Bothan Assault Cruiser/Carrier, NJO-era Star Destroyers with integrated grav-well projectors and long-range turbolasers, the Yuuzhan Vong, the Ssi-ruuk, the Lost Tribe of the Sith, the Killiks... the list could go on and on.

But all of those are Legends now and it doesn't seem like Disney wants to draw from that well. At best, they've been cherry picking things from Legends, one at a time, retooled them, and brought them into canon, very gradually. But I don't think Star Wars Armada is a priority for Disney and they're not willing to take the creative cuffs off the Star Wars license, give FFG free reign, and give permission to, "Do whatever you want, just make it awesome, and make us some GD'd money!" 🤑🤑🤑

 

Also, I think it's difficult to make new Rebel ships in particular because the existing ships in Armada cover all the bases. Yes, the Rebels could use another medium ship, but what will it do? Is it just going to be a copy of VSD, with a red-&-blue dice version and a red-&-black dice version? That's not very interesting. But the problem is that Rebel Alliance/New Republic didn't build "crazy" ships like the Empire. FFG has been able to break the mold with Imperial ships like the Interdictor, Quasar Fire, and Onager. The most "crazy" Rebel ship has been the Starhawk, which is basically just a bigger, better, meaner Star Destroyer -- with a "superweapon" that's not really a weapon.

So I understand that it's tricky for FFG to create a new and awesome ship for the Rebels.

Look, you can hate on Disney and the sequels all you want, (I loved them) I’m sure I’m not gonna change your mind. But one of the best things about the Disney era has been that with their tighter controls on content, we don’t have to deal with as much embarrassingly poor hack writing filling up the SW Universe with garbage (we just have to occasionally deal with that from Dave “Maul Has Legs Again” Filoni). There are a couple of sort of decent stories from the old stuff, but just about every one of them jumps the shark at some point and gets unspeakably stupid.

Are you REALLY asking for the Yuuzhan Vong?? Like, that story stands out head and shoulders as way sillier than all the rest. Like, that’s even dumber than the idiotic story about IG-88’s droid brain successfully hijacking the bloody Death Star (Cybersecurity? Never heard of it. Who needs it?).

Disney didn’t just kill the EU because it wanted to write its own stories. They ALSO killed it because most of the writing was barely better than fan fiction. Let it stay dead.

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Disney didn’t just kill the EU because it wanted to write its own stories. They ALSO killed it because most of the writing was barely better than fan fiction. Let it stay dead.

I can’t agree with you more.  I read everything that came out when I was a teenager, but it got to a point where I stopped reading anything Star Wars after a while. I remember reading the black fleet crisis books and just thinking “That was a huge waste of time. I’m done with Star Wars books. ” The Hand of Thrawn Duology brought me back in because Zahn doesn’t seem to go along with the “Let’s make everything bigger and more deadly” mentality. I’m not sure I ever finished the New Jedi Order because it just kept getting more ridiculous. The anthology books were fun, but had some pretty stupid stories, like using Greedo’s body to make a perfect drink for Jabba. 

The new stuff I’ve read avoids a lot of the power creep in the old EU, but I still don’t think there’s a lot of good writers involved. I only finished Aftermath, for example, because I had it as an audible book and could listen while I did other things. 

Edited by bkcammack
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