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Why aren't we seeing massed squadrons?

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Does anyone else wonder why we aren't seeing a lot of lists that take the full amount of squadrons (134pts)? Is this proof that squads are back to being weaker like they were in earlier waves and we need to come up with some way to strengthen them? 

I think we could really use more 2 die heavy bombers for both factions, or all four given the new CW factions.

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I feel like Rebels in particular are in need of some better anti-ship dice, given that the Starhawk only has a native Squadron value of 3.  It just can't deliver a meaningful anti-ship sqaudron command.

Really, what we need are some Speed 4, Double Black dice bombers to make the activation worthwhile.

 

What Imperials need, meanwhile, is a dual role fighter like the TIE Phantom, but really it should have 2 Blue dice, not Reds.  Maybe give it more hull to compensate for the lower damge ceiling.

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Even then, I wonder if anyone would take them, given how clunky they are to use, and how difficult it is to get them on target. Perhaps if we gave them some other methods of out of activation movement, they might be seen more.

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3 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Data shows only 19% of rebel fleets (22% Imps) have mass squadrons.  It seems like folks are just finding other things to fly nowadays.

Wow that is really low!  Can we even say they are competitive right now?

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I believe the reason why fewer builds have massed squadrons is a direct result of the release of the Onager and Starhawk. Armada players want to play with and against these new ships, which are expensive (especially the SH), so players can't afford to spend 134 points on squadrons.

The pendulum tends to swing back and forth on ships vs. squadrons.

I predict that squadrons will feature heavily in Clone Wars builds, and players will adjust their Imperial and Rebel builds to compensate. So massed squadrons could be back in vogue in Q4.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

I feel like Rebels in particular are in need of some better anti-ship dice, given that the Starhawk only has a native Squadron value of 3.  It just can't deliver a meaningful anti-ship sqaudron command.

Really, what we need are some Speed 4, Double Black dice bombers to make the activation worthwhile.

 

What Imperials need, meanwhile, is a dual role fighter like the TIE Phantom, but really it should have 2 Blue dice, not Reds.  Maybe give it more hull to compensate for the lower damge ceiling.

Won't that lead to an extraordinarily strong last-first double tap for Yavaris (last activation: fling 2-3 speed4 bombers into target. Next turn first activation: Yav move in then Flight Commander to double tap bombers. Total (6-9)x 2blacks(BCC?), plus whatever Yavaris fires) ?

Agree on the Phantom, though cost would have to go up else it would be a much better X-wing (solid dice without the bomber keyword, does not need BCC, made better by Sloane even).

Edited by Muelmuel

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7 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

Wow that is really low!  Can we even say they are competitive right now?

I think its outrageous that mass squads cant compete. I want to use mass squads and its unfair that FFG nerfed them. Never ever see them anymore. We need more data on this. Is it Rhymer Jan or Bossk that are getting permabench. Would giving all aces an extra scatter be too much? I dont think so. 

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The ships got some really strong anti squadron cards and even stronger combos. Toryn, Kallus, Chaffs, QLT, Point-Defense, and even DCO is now sees action. There are ships that can deal with a whole wing of squadrons alone. Meanwhile flotillas got restricted to 2, and Yavaris and Gallant Haven got  massive nerf.

And the main issue is that if you want to be competitive in a tournament, you have to be prepared for many different lists. And squadron-heavy lists nowadays can deal with one or two types only. The only somewhat flexible squadron-heavy list is Sloane Aces, but even that one is struggling more often than it should.

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If anything I think the rebels have it better with bomber squadrons generally speaking.

Ive faced plenty of lists where B-wings can quickly ruin your day.

The Empire has Decimators for a large pool of dice but no bomber keyword.

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The problem IMO is a shortage of squadron-focused admirals.  Pretty much all the admirals offer help for fleets of ships.

I'd like to see future ship releases include admirals which enhance squads, particularly non-unique squads, in some way. 
 

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32 minutes ago, flatpackhamster said:

The problem IMO is a shortage of squadron-focused admirals.  Pretty much all the admirals offer help for fleets of ships.

I'd like to see future ship releases include admirals which enhance squads, particularly non-unique squads, in some way. 
 

I agree some new admirals would be nice. However, one problem, for me anyways is, upgrades & Sloane manipulate attacks somewhat (which is fine in itself).

I like the thematic aspect (the huge fighter swarms of RoTJ). I’d like to see new admirals that bump quantity so you can field a dozen units of TIEs but still have a method to effectively activate them without dedicating the fleet to that purpose.

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1 hour ago, flatpackhamster said:

The problem IMO is a shortage of squadron-focused admirals.  Pretty much all the admirals offer help for fleets of ships.

I'd like to see future ship releases include admirals which enhance squads, particularly non-unique squads, in some way. 
 

Well Rebels have no squadron based commanders at all Sato doesn't count as he buffs ships. Considering that in the movies Rebels rely more on their fighters then capital ships.

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I'm just having fun trying to figure out who's taking the OP seriously and who's giving sarcastic replies.

 

I think the first 4 replies (and Ginkapo) were at least mostly intended to be humerus. The rest seem to have taken it seriously.

 

But to top it all off, I'm not sure if the OP was being sarcastic or not 😝

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5 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

latest?cb=20200120062452

Ugliness is a feature of the TIE series, normally the Rebels have better looking stuff.

Why is it on the left side? Why not the right? Followup: why not symmetry? Symmetry, Steinman, something must be done about symmetry!

But to actually answer you, TIEs and Squints look alright, and the defender is aesthetically pleasing. Bombers are weird but I've grown used to them now.

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Posted (edited)

I hope this topic is a jest.  Squad heavy has been dominate for basically every.  Not all successful fleets have them, but all successful fleets must have a plan to mitigate them,  That is how powerful they are, they are one of the check boxes every list must pass in order to be considered a viable tournament option.

Most good players I know ask their self, "can I deal with mass squads?" when considering a list.  That tells me they are still a factor. 

Squadrons should NOT be the best form of offense in the game due to how forgiving they are to use against ships.  They have minimal movement restrictions and deliver damage in 1-2 die packages which defense tokens have a hard time mitigating effectively.  Point for point squadrons are vastly more effective DPS then ships and have easy access to rerolls via BCC, and/or just setting dice to hits (Steele, and Lando)

The only think limiting squadrons from being a complete damage dealing easy button is range and other squadrons engaging them. 

While it is much tougher to deliver a well placed double arc, set up forks, flank to isolate a portion of the enemy fleet with movement, or manipulate activations correctly to set up optimal engagement tempo, etc. with combat ships than it is than to mindlessly herd your bombers toward an enemy capital ship while running away with your carriers, the squadron-on-squadron game is a chess match of great skill and requires a lot of experience, range band manipulation, and threat recognition to do well. 

Squadrons are good, they have limitations and that is a good thing,  A fleet should not we able to win on the back of its squadron wing alone, no more than it should be able to win on the back of a single 134 point ship alone.  Armada is a game about FLEET engagement, and squadrons should be a viable and necessary PART of that fleet, not the whole battle plan.  I for one, am happy to see any down trend in the use of the "fight with 134 points of aces and run away, with most everything else," fleets. 

TLDR: Squads are best DPS in the game on a point-for-point basis.  They should not be strong enough to win on their own, but are good enough that most players consider them when stress testing lists.  This would seam to indicate that they are in a good play right now.

All that said, Rebel squadrons are having a hard time right now due to their speed, or rather the Imperial abundance of speed.  The alpha strike advantage is so heavily stacking in favor of the Empire both in the bombing and dogfighting game its hard to justify rebel heavy squad without specialized tech to weather the alpha.  Not sure what FFG was thinking when they allowed 1 whole faction to be 1-2 speed faster than another whole faction in the squadron game and then allow players to start activating 5-6 squadrons at a time with flight controllers, all wrapped up in a Pryce fueled first last package.   Before wave 8, range limitiations allowed rebel fleets to approach slowly and give their bombers time to get into position.  Now with the threat of being attacked starting with the first activation, that slow developing engagement is no longer as reliable a plan and is probably the reason for the decline in Rebel squadrons.

 

Edited by Space_Cowboy17

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5 hours ago, XR8rGREAT said:

Well Rebels have no squadron based commanders at all Sato doesn't count as he buffs ships. Considering that in the movies Rebels rely more on their fighters then capital ships.

Well there's Reikaan, but that's about it.

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4 hours ago, Flengin said:

I'm just having fun trying to figure out who's taking the OP seriously and who's giving sarcastic replies.

 

I think the first 4 replies (and Ginkapo) were at least mostly intended to be humerus. The rest seem to have taken it seriously.

 

But to top it all off, I'm not sure if the OP was being sarcastic or not 😝

I assumed the best of OP, and that he wasn't acting like an infant and *********** for lulz.  It appears that I was naive to think that.  In future I will treat every thread as if everyone in it is being sarcastic, and reply accordingly.

 

" Yuh right cuz IF is like the worst ok and why doesn't anyone use Dcaps?"

 

What larks.

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3 hours ago, flatpackhamster said:

Well there's Reikaan, but that's about it.

I would hardly call that a buff to squadrons as the have to die to be of use to him lol

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, XR8rGREAT said:

I would hardly call that a buff to squadrons as the have to die to be of use to him lol

"Man, I wish at least one of my ships or squadrons had died so that I could've used Rieekan."
- Said no Rieekan player, ever

Edited by Bertie Wooster

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