Question about Ionized Supernatual Reflexes

[muzhyou 16]

I've just read the topic in which some guys want to know the difference of Supernatual Reflexes and Precognitive Reflexes.

When looking at the difference between "Before you activate" and "After you reveal your dial", I think about a case that a ship activates without a dial, and the activation of an ionized ship comes to my mind.

However, it is stated in page 12, Rules Reference 1.1.0, saying that - 

Then, a question comes up:

When does this limit works? During the ionized Activation Phase only, or rightly after the ship gets enough ion tokens to be ionized? 

I usually treat it as the limit works rightly after the ship gets enough ion tokens to be ionized, and ends after the ionized activation.

But if the limit works only during the ionized activation phase, that would mean Supernatual Reflexes may work even while ionized.

I want to make sure if I'm doing things right.

[DR4CO 6,234]

1 hour ago, muzhyou said:

I usually treat it as the limit works rightly after the ship gets enough ion tokens to be ionized, and ends after the ionized activation.

This is correct.

A ship is considered to be ionized right from the moment it acquires the required number of ion tokens for its base size. From that moment onwards, you cannot perform any actions other than the Focus action.

It used to be the case that this limiation on actions only applied during the ship's Perform Action step, which did allow things like Supernatural Reflexes and Fine-Tuned Controls to be used by an ionized ship. The rules were changed to what they are now quite deliberately to shut them off.

[muzhyou 16]

@DR4COThanks.

Well, then another question comes up for the Supernatural Reflexes:

Is there any situation that a ship may activate without a dial except for the case of being ionized?

[theBitterFig 11,598]

For completeness, you might find some older posts saying it worked, but the Ion rules were revised.  It used to be the case that you could do "before you activate" actions while Ionized, but not anymore.

5 hours ago, muzhyou said:

Is there any situation that a ship may activate without a dial except for the case of being ionized?

None off the top of my head.

[Lyianx 1,433]

11 hours ago, muzhyou said:

@DR4COThanks.

Well, then another question comes up for the Supernatural Reflexes:

Is there any situation that a ship may activate without a dial except for the case of being ionized?

Looking around, i cant find any. That said, there is some wording that seems redundant now but could be in place for future proofing, in case FFG wanted to add some abilities where that timing would matter. In 2E there are more timing windows than there seem to have been in 1E, so its possible they are splitting it up that way 'just in case'. But then it could also just be for the ionization issue.

 

[Maui. 2,815]

The only other way I know of is in Epic games using wing leader mechanics. When you fly a wing, only the wing leader sets a dial; the wingmates do not set dials, which is normally fine because wingmates get placed in formation with the wing leader when they activate... unless the wing is forced to split before the wingmates activate, in which case they activate without a set dial and become very very sad (a white 2 straight + stress, if I recall correctly)

[Lyianx 1,433]

On 5/15/2020 at 4:53 PM, Maui. said:

The only other way I know of is in Epic games using wing leader mechanics. When you fly a wing, only the wing leader sets a dial; the wingmates do not set dials, which is normally fine because wingmates get placed in formation with the wing leader when they activate... unless the wing is forced to split before the wingmates activate, in which case they activate without a set dial and become very very sad (a white 2 straight + stress, if I recall correctly)

Ahh yeah.. Good example. Some Jedi knights in formation would bump into this if you wanted to give them the option to do that before the maneuver instead of after.

[Asaverino1019 109]

Along this line of pre-activation movement of ionized ships, what about N-1 Anakin?  His force barrel roll doesn't count as an action, so can he still barrel roll when he's ionized?

[Hiemfire 7,292]

8 minutes ago, Asaverino1019 said:

Along this line of pre-activation movement of ionized ships, what about N-1 Anakin?  His force barrel roll doesn't count as an action, so can he still barrel roll when he's ionized?

Yes he can still perform that barrel roll when Ionized.

Edited May 19 by Hiemfire

[Lyianx 1,433]

5 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Yes he can still perform that barrel roll when Ionized.

Are we sure about this?
 

Quote

Before you reveal your maneuver,

Its strange they didn't say "reveal your dial" but how else can you 'reveal' your maneuver? You can't 'reveal' an ion maneuver so it may still prevent his ability from activating as there is nothing to reveal. But im not 100% sure.

Edited May 19 by Lyianx

[Hiemfire 7,292]

22 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Are we sure about this?
 

Its strange they didn't say "reveal your dial" but how else can you 'reveal' your maneuver? You can't 'reveal' an ion maneuver so it may still prevent his ability from activating as there is nothing to reveal. But im not 100% sure.

Fair point. I was focused on the barrel roll not being an action. FFG needs to clarify if they ment "reveal your dial" when they wrote "reveal your maneuver" since ionized ships don't reveal dials or did they want it to include the ionization maneuver as part of "reveal your maneuver".

[Lyianx 1,433]

21 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Fair point. I was focused on the barrel roll not being an action. FFG needs to clarify if they ment "reveal your dial" when they wrote "reveal your maneuver" since ionized ships don't reveal dials or did they want it to include the ionization maneuver as part of "reveal your maneuver".

It just tells you to execute a specific maneuver.

 

 

Quote

2. During the Execute Maneuver step, the ionized ship executes the ion maneuver. The ion maneuver is a blue [1 straight] maneuver. The bearing, difficulty, and speed of this maneuver cannot be changed unless an ability explicitly affects the ion maneuver.

 

Even tho the wording isn't strictly exact, id personally say, it amounts to the same thing, so 'Little Anie" cant use his ability when he doesnt have a dial assigned (but still can if he is ionized in the system phase and still has a dial assigned).

[Manolox 124]

On 5/15/2020 at 9:05 AM, muzhyou said:

@DR4COThanks.

Well, then another question comes up for the Supernatural Reflexes:

Is there any situation that a ship may activate without a dial except for the case of being ionized?

i'm not shure but maybe it could happen if you forget to set a dial...

i really don't remember if it goes like this or if is simply assigned a dial with a 2 straight manouver

does some one  can confirm please?

 

 

[emeraldbeacon 1,995]

On 5/20/2020 at 2:41 PM, Lyianx said:

Even tho the wording isn't strictly exact, id personally say, it amounts to the same thing, so 'Little Anie" cant use his ability when he doesnt have a dial assigned (but still can if he is ionized in the system phase and still has a dial assigned).

Yup.  Since you don't assign a dial when ionized, there's nothing to reveal... and therefore, there's no trigger for Little Ani to perform his not-an-action barrel roll.

[Lyianx 1,433]

On 5/24/2020 at 3:36 AM, Manolox said:

i'm not shure but maybe it could happen if you forget to set a dial...

i really don't remember if it goes like this or if is simply assigned a dial with a 2 straight manouver

does some one  can confirm please?

 

 

I couldn't find a 2E rule on this, but the 1E rule reads...
 

Quote

If a player forgets to place a maneuver dial next to a ship, but tells his opponent he is ready to begin the round, once play has proceeded to the first ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed, etc.), he may no longer place a dial. Instead, when that ship activates, the player’s opponent chooses the maneuver that ship will perform. No actions may be taken before this maneuver, but play proceeds normally after the maneuver has been executed.

If we go by this, it seems to point to the opponent basically saying "this is the maneuver you need to execute" but the ship itself isn't revealing a dial.

But again, that's from 1E, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Manolox 124]

11 hours ago, Lyianx said:

I couldn't find a 2E rule on this, but the 1E rule reads...
 

If we go by this, it seems to point to the opponent basically saying "this is the maneuver you need to execute" but the ship itself isn't revealing a dial.

But again, that's from 1E, so take it with a grain of salt.

At my last tournament happened that i did not remember that a medium ship needs 2 ion token instead of 1 to be ionized and i did not set the dial...

i called the judje  and he makes me do a 2 straight manouver for shure, but i do not remember if i had an assigned dial or not....

 

[joeshmoe554 839]

Without a specific rule, the call is entirely on the judge of that event and may not be consistent every time.

[Lyianx 1,433]

9 hours ago, Manolox said:

At my last tournament happened that i did not remember that a medium ship needs 2 ion token instead of 1 to be ionized and i did not set the dial...

i called the judje  and he makes me do a 2 straight manouver for shure, but i do not remember if i had an assigned dial or not....

 

I honestly kind of prefer that ruling over the 1E one. As it doesn't give either player 'the power'. Its more a "let fate decide" ruling. Either way, i would still say (imo) that you didn't reveal a dial so cannot trigger abilities associated with it.