Fifth Brother [Pilot, Imperial] with Homing Missiles

[muzhyou 16]

When building an Imperial list with 3 Aces, my friend proposed to equip Fifth Brother [Pilot, Advanced TIE v1, Imperial] with Homing Missiles. Later on we find we have different explanation on whether Fifth Brother's pilot ability will work on Homing Missiles while the defender chooses to be hit rather than letting the attacker roll 4 attack dice.

Here belows are the relevant cards:

According to the texts, Fifth Brother's ability may trigger after the Neutralize Results step, while the attack hits, and a defender facing an attack from the Homing Missiles may choose to suffer 1 Hit damage to skip the Attack and Defense Dice steps, treating the attack as hitting.

Since there's no words mentioned to skip the Neutralize Results step, and it says "the attack is treated as hitting", my friends believe that Fifth Brother's ability may trigger because the precondition is fulfilled. The defender will then suffer 1 Hit damage and 1 Crit damage. I grudgingly agree with this view, following the code that everything works unless a text says it is forbidden.

Anyway, it just comes to my mind whether there is a Neutralize Results step when there are no dice results, because both of the dice-rolling steps have been skipped.

I can't stop to think that the Neutralize Results step will also be skipped after the Attack and Defense Dice steps were skipped, since there are no dice results to be neutralized, and therefore, the precondition for trigering Fifth Brother's pilot ability will not be fulfilled and thus Fifth Brother will not be able to add 1 Crit result to the damage while using the Homing Missiles and the defender chooses to suffer 1 Hit damage rather than letting Fifth Brother roll 4 attack dice.

I wonder whether there is an official FAQ would be given for this question.

[Maui. 2,815]

Homing Missiles instructs you to skip the dice rolling steps. It does not instruct you to skip the Neutralize Results step; therefore you do not skip this step, the attack is treated as hitting, and Fifth Brother can do his thing.

[meffo 1,401]

@Maui. is utterly correct again.

[muzhyou 16]

OK.

It seems that we've figured out a useful combination of pilot ability and upgrade card.

[emeraldbeacon 1,995]

Fifth Brother works similarly with Mag-Pulse Warheads, since by the time the attack hits, you would have already cancelled all evade results.  The missile's effects go off, dealing damage and tokens, THEN Fifth Brother could add an additional critical damage to the mix before proceeding to the Deal Damage step.

It's not quite as good of a combo with Fifth Brother as Homing Missiles, though, for a couple reasons... Mag-Pulse is more expensive, rolls less attack dice, and has to actively hit to push damage through.  Homing Missiles also forces your opponent into a terrible choice-tree... "do I voluntarily eat hit-crit, or run the risk of facing a four-dice attack, backed up by a lock and two force tokens?"

[Manolox 124]

On 5/11/2020 at 9:24 PM, emeraldbeacon said:

Homing Missiles also forces your opponent into a terrible choice-tree... "do I voluntarily eat hit-crit, or run the risk of facing a four-dice attack, backed up by a lock and two force tokens?"

Yes! and don't forget the part in which you trow 4 natural hit results ad add a "fifth" crit! lovely

Edited May 24 by Manolox

[Whisper10 4]

According to RR (Page 10) "... To add a die result, place an unused die displaying the result next to the rolled dice ..." If the opponent decides to skip steps 2 and 3 of the attack with homing missiles, there are no rolled dice, then: how can Fifth Brother add a result?

[Maui. 2,815]

0 + 1 = 1

(e.g. Norra Wexley can use her ability to an an evade result, even if she did not roll any green dice due to strain/outmaneuver/etc.)

[emeraldbeacon 1,995]

9 minutes ago, Whisper10 said:

According to RR (Page 10) "... To add a die result, place an unused die displaying the result next to the rolled dice ..." If the opponent decides to skip steps 2 and 3 of the attack with homing missiles, there are no rolled dice, then: how can Fifth Brother add a result?

As @Maui. stated, you skipped the rolling steps, so there is currently a dice pool of zero dice.  Then, as you move on to step 4 (Neutralize Results), and add one critical result to that pool of zero dice.  Since there are no evade results to cancel it, the critical damage goes through on step 5 (Deal Damage).

[Whisper10 4]

 

0 dice can be rolled, this is correct, but in this case no dice have been rolled. is not the same.

[Maui. 2,815]

1 hour ago, Whisper10 said:

 

0 dice can be rolled, this is correct, but in this case no dice have been rolled. is not the same.

You're arguing that there is no dice pool to add dice to because dice have not been rolled, but this interpretation is not supported by the rules. Fifth Brother does not require you to have rolled dice, he only requires the attack to hit, so in this case there is no reason why he cannot add his result.

[theBitterFig 11,598]

3 hours ago, Maui. said:

0 + 1 = 1

(e.g. Norra Wexley can use her ability to an an evade result, even if she did not roll any green dice due to strain/outmaneuver/etc.)

Just to avoid any potential confusion, Norra can't add an Evade result against Homing Missiles.  It's not about whether or not she rolled dice, but about the timing. 

3 hours ago, Whisper10 said:

According to RR (Page 10) "... To add a die result, place an unused die displaying the result next to the rolled dice ..." If the opponent decides to skip steps 2 and 3 of the attack with homing missiles, there are no rolled dice, then: how can Fifth Brother add a result?

Timing is also relevant to why Fifth Brother can add a Crit, @Whisper10 .

Most cases of dice modification happen in Steps 2 and 3: Attack Dice and Defense Dice (Attack, RR 1.1.0, p. 4-5).  This is when Norra would add her Evade, but against Homing Missiles, Step 3 "Defense Dice" is skipped and she doesn't have a timing window to add the Evade.

Fifth Brother, on the other hand, has his own unique timing, after the Neutralize Results step, between Steps 4 and 5.  Since Homing Missiles only skips Steps 2 and 3, every other step plays out normally.  For any pilot other than Fifth Brother, this is essentially irrelevant.  There normally aren't dice in the pool, so Steps 4 and 5 don't usually do anything, and Step 6 (Aftermath) still happens as normal, allowing any "after attacking" or "after defending" triggers.

But Fifth Brother with his oddball timing throws in a crit like a monkey wrench, just after Steo 4.  Having the crit in the pool now makes Step 5 relevant, and the defender suffers a critical damage.

If that's not enough for you, I dunno what to tell you.  It works.  The judges and folks onhere all agree it works.  The devs have said it works.  That's just how it goes.

//

For the record, FFG probably wrote Fifth Brother in the stupidest way possible.  It'd have been much easier, much less confusing to say "After you perform an attack, if the attack hit, you may spend 2 [force charge].  If you do, the defender suffers 1 [critical damage]."  It'd interact with Ion Missiles differently, but there would never be *ANY* need for rules discussions on how he worked.  But they decided they wanted to get clever, come up with a funky new timing, and we've got this mess.

[Whisper10 4]

If the judges an the devs have said it works, I won't disagree.

I’m not challenging your statement that they’ve said it works (I’m sure they have). But... have you got a link? Just so we have something to point to if this were challenged. Thanks!

[nitrobenz 1,369]

8 hours ago, Whisper10 said:

If the judges an the devs have said it works, I won't disagree.

At the very least now you know it's something to clarify between players during setup before the game starts

[meffo 1,401]

9 hours ago, Whisper10 said:

If the judges an the devs have said it works, I won't disagree.

I’m not challenging your statement that they’ve said it works (I’m sure they have). But... have you got a link? Just so we have something to point to if this were challenged. Thanks!

was very easy to find. it's worth noting that fifth brother does not exist as a crew, but as a gunner.

Edited June 27 by meffo

[Whisper10 4]

Wow! Thank you very much!!!🙂🙃🙂👌