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Boom Owl

The Poe Principle & Soontir Should be 69 Points

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Im just going to pre-emptively ask that they close this "before" it gets really out of hand. 

The sad thing is, this thread is wholesome in comparison... anyway, I'm finally out. I started out trying, then switched to having fun while watching, but it's time.

Edited by GreenDragoon

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Three thoughts from mulling on this over the past few days.  There's serious thoughts, which is a departure from the trend.

First thought:  Poe as ideal-2e-ace seems like it kind of reduces to "Poe is bad."  And not "Bad Aces are Good" but as in he's not that effective at doing the things ace players want an ace to do.  Maybe that's why he's an excellent ideal.  Maybe it means he's really not.  On paper, there's all sorts of stuff it looks like he can do.  But no, not really, he can't.

Second thought: Soontir isn't necessarily that bad.  However, he can punch up more than a lot of 53 point ships can.  If he goes wrong (and it isn't that hard to go wrong), he was only 53 points.  If he works properly (and it isn't that hard to get him to work), he probably took out at least 50% more than his value.  That alone is kind of a problem.

Third thought: Do we really have any reason to believe aces will be nerfed in the next update?  They didn't get nerfed last time.  Like, 1 point on Obi-Wan or such.  There was a lot of pretty aggressive points adjustment on the lower end, and perhaps the theory is that FFG might alternate between a "buff patch" and a "nerf patch."  But that's probably all just theory and wishful thinking.  We folks chatting and flaming onhere all have our pet theories and hopes, but it's not like any of us has any actual inside lines.

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1 hour ago, clockworkspider said:

What's that gif from?

It might be Community?  I haven't seen enough of it to say for sure; plus it's an off day for me.  ;) but might be a starting point.

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Also regarding deleting/locking threads, that rarely happens.  Has to get pretty bad, not just "well I didn't get the result I wanted and people are kinda rude".  Not many threads would stay open on this forum.  :)

I'll echo a sentiment above: I really would be surprised if this gets touched before the pandemic/eugenics thread.  That guy really had no idea what he was getting into and it's a nightmare.  I nope'd out after the first page and haven't looked back.

Crazy to me that it hasn't been closed yet, but maybe FFG let those staff members go...

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3 hours ago, Wazat said:

It might be Community?  I haven't seen enough of it to say for sure; plus it's an off day for me.  ;) but might be a starting point.

Correct. 

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It’s a bit disappointing really.  It’s clear you’ve all been trapped with each other too long.  Every discussion rapidly turns into a continuation of the same argument that’s been running through every other thread for months with battle lines drawn and affiliations between members solidified long ago.

This was starting to happen when I was last here, but a year later it’s just accelerated to take over almost everything.

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7 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

This was starting to happen when I was last here, but a year later it’s just accelerated to take over almost everything.

I mean, we can choose to see this as a positive thing. 

Just a bunch of passionate Joe's yammering over who's gonna win the World Series and who needs to get fired over a beer and a hot dog. 

Or it's a disheartening mess because I can't go to random company "X"'s generic online discussion site and get a novel philosophical dose of, "wow, maybe the universe really could've started that way...". 

TL;DR: 

It's all good, bro. Everyone's been couped up for a couple months and we're all just dumb humans. 

tddd5.gif?w=540

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17 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Second thought: Soontir isn't necessarily that bad.  However, he can punch up more than a lot of 53 point ships can.  If he goes wrong (and it isn't that hard to go wrong), he was only 53 points.  If he works properly (and it isn't that hard to get him to work), he probably took out at least 50% more than his value.  That alone is kind of a problem.

https://www.strawpoll.me/20039929

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I answered 2, but I'm very hesitant about that answer.  A 2nd ship allows blocking shenanigans and a lot more arc coverage.  Depending on how things go down, they could eventually trap Soontir into some bad rounds.  He's torn between really needing to eliminate one of those ships, vs having to play cagey as possible or he's a dead duck.

Also I assumed naked T-65 x-wings based on the points listed; 2 T-70s are a lot more hazardous in this scenario with their innate boost for adjusting their arcs, chasing at high speed, and getting into surprise block positions.  Worse, the bonus shield drags out the battle further (bad for Soontir) and delays getting the crits that on the x-wings which could make The Fel Life (tm) easier.

I imagine a really cagey and patient Soontir who knows how to not get cornered and caught could solo two T-65s with some confidence, but I'm still really unsure about it.  All those two x-wings need is one lucky break to cause Soontir disaster, and assuming both players are of equal skill, that means the generics pilot knows how to position and think ahead to optimally trap aces.  On reflection, I'd change my answer to 1 to meet the "reliably" stipulation, rounding down from Cuz05's insightful 1.5.

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2 hours ago, svelok said:

Certainly 1.  In a 2 vs 1 situation, X-Wings probably win.  I guess that's 1.5.  But there's two things:

  • First is format.  "N Ships vs 1" is a pretty odd format, and one which doesn't really resemble standard X-Wing.  Facing multiple ships, without the threat from listmates coming in unchallenged, just gives a large advantage to the X-Wings.
    • That probably means my "Soontir Trades Up" is perhaps skewed, since there's probably someone else in the list trading-down.  However, I still think it's relevant, since if you can manage to break even with the rest of the squad, that puts things into an awkward position.
    • Side-note: if it's sequentially rather than simultaneously, a new X-Wing on the other corner of the map after one is killed, I think Soontir can probably take 2 or 3 without too much trouble.
  • Second is equal skill.  At equal skill levels, Soontir is overall pretty fair.  Once there's a bit more of a skill differential, then stuff gets kinda awkward.  Soontir is more prone to die in a ball of fire and feel useless, or feel unbeatable.
    • There are other ships like this, who can bring that "Why am I even playing this game, I can't do anything about this" feeling, but most of those cost more than 53 points.  Like, an invincible Kylo or Anakin or Guri costs somewhere around twice as much.  There's no one this cheap with this much potential to just go off.  I think that leads to a lot of bad feelings.
    • I think it's possible that Soontir's entire schtick--fragile glass cannon who can do incredible things--might simply be kinda bad game design.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, svelok said:

.... I am now ready to try this. 

Also will be extraordinarily funny to do this (just once), with a newbie opponent. 

Or should do this with Vader. Like that comic book scene of Vader vs a cr90 AND like 40 Xwings. 

 

---

I think I could take 3 Xwings.  Is this like, Soontir vs 5 at the start, or Soontir vs 3 at the start? 

Ahh wait, edit: that's naked Soontir. Not soontir with the extra hull which I like. 

 

---

And yes, I have won games 60pts vs 100pts (1.0) (120vs 200 in 2.0) against non-new opponents. 

Edited by Blail Blerg

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27 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Certainly 1.  In a 2 vs 1 situation, X-Wings probably win.  I guess that's 1.5.  But there's two things:

  • First is format.  "N Ships vs 1" is a pretty odd format, and one which doesn't really resemble standard X-Wing.  Facing multiple ships, without the threat from listmates coming in unchallenged, just gives a large advantage to the X-Wings.
    • That probably means my "Soontir Trades Up" is perhaps skewed, since there's probably someone else in the list trading-down.  However, I still think it's relevant, since if you can manage to break even with the rest of the squad, that puts things into an awkward position.
    • Side-note: if it's sequentially rather than simultaneously, a new X-Wing on the other corner of the map after one is killed, I think Soontir can probably take 2 or 3 without too much trouble.
  • Second is equal skill.  At equal skill levels, Soontir is overall pretty fair.  Once there's a bit more of a skill differential, then stuff gets kinda awkward.  Soontir is more prone to die in a ball of fire and feel useless, or feel unbeatable.
    • There are other ships like this, who can bring that "Why am I even playing this game, I can't do anything about this" feeling, but most of those cost more than 53 points.  Like, an invincible Kylo or Anakin or Guri costs somewhere around twice as much.  There's no one this cheap with this much potential to just go off.  I think that leads to a lot of bad feelings.
    • I think it's possible that Soontir's entire schtick--fragile glass cannon who can do incredible things--might simply be kinda bad game design.

Its a bit all or nothing. And very predicated on the pilot player's skill. 

Blocking is the counterpley, but I will admit that's generally harder than the flying. (Though with 5Xwings, its certainly much easier, another reason I like that squad). Blocking is ALSO all or nothing: it works and the ace player DIES, or it doesn't and its rather bad for the blocking player. I would actually say, its theoretically still better for the 5X player who they fail the block, cuz at least they STILL have 4 Xwings of firepower. Soontir can no longer sit in front of that. Heck, the math barely lets him sit in front of 2 3red attacks. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Its a bit all or nothing. And very predicated on the pilot player's skill. 

Blocking is the counterplay, but I will admit that's generally harder than the flying. (Though with 5Xwings, its certainly much easier, another reason I like that squad). Blocking is ALSO all or nothing: it works and the ace player DIES, or it doesn't and its rather bad for the blocking player. I would actually say, its theoretically still better for the 5X player who they fail the block, cuz at least they STILL have 4 Xwings of firepower. Soontir can no longer sit in front of that. Heck, the math barely lets him sit in front of 2 3red attacks. 

Blocking is useful, but in general in the overall game of X-Wing, I feel like it probably gets over-hyped.  Having ships to serve as blockers, while it's not bad, probably isn't necessarily something we should be teaching new players to value.  Blocking can be pretty hard to do effectively, and thinking about ships as dedicated blockers often gets in the way of doing the most important thing: shooting.

Folks don't win this game by blocking--folks win by shooting.  Blocking is an opportunistic tactic that can and should be used to improve opportunities for shooting, but the most important thing is shooting.

To that end, the blockers I've had the most fun with lately: heavy blockers.  Fangs.  TIE Silencers.  BB Astromech Blue Novice T-70s (who like to fly along side... wait... is that Poe Dameron sneaking back in the thread again?).  They're really mobile and can get into position to ruin someone's day, but that's not all.  There are all ships which can throw a punch, and, if they fail to secure a block and are stuck in someone else's face, can *take* a punch. 

Edited by theBitterFig

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Blocking is useful, but in general in the overall game of X-Wing, I feel like it probably gets over-hyped.  Having ships to serve as blockers, while it's not bad, probably isn't necessarily something we should be teaching new players to value.  Blocking can be pretty hard to do effectively, and thinking about ships as dedicated blockers often gets in the way of doing the most important thing: shooting.

Folks don't win this game by blocking--folks win by shooting.  Blocking is an opportunistic tactic that can and should be used to improve opportunities for shooting, but the most important thing is shooting.

To that end, the blockers I've had the most fun with lately: heavy blockers.  Fangs.  TIE Silencers.  BB Astromech Blue Novice T-70s (who like to fly along side... wait... is that Poe Dameron sneaking back in the thread again?).  They're really mobile and can get into position to ruin someone's day, but that's not all.  There are all ships which can throw a punch, and, if they fail to secure a block and are stuck in someone else's face, can *take* a punch. 

 Imean hey, when I teach blocking, its like a intermediate level topic, and the main point is one ship blocking, two ships shooting THAT target. (Of course in real life you graduate to other ships shooting any target, but that becomes tempo play if done over and over again and that's maybe more an advanced topic)

I do not like heavy blockers at all: same principle: its harder to get 2 ships shooting at the blocked-ee. Also idk why people say they can take a punch, frankly punch for punch, a Silencer lasts even less long than equivalent value of Xwings/jousters. Also, a silencer dies or get half-pointed very often. That or I and my opponents really are good at focus fire. 

Other than that, I think we agree. Shooting wins. 

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25 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I do not like heavy blockers at all: same principle: its harder to get 2 ships shooting at the blocked-ee. Also idk why people say they can take a punch, frankly punch for punch, a Silencer lasts even less long than equivalent value of Xwings/jousters. Also, a silencer dies or get half-pointed very often. That or I and my opponents really are good at focus fire. 

"Take a punch" doesn't mean "ignore all damage." It means they can take some damage and still be moving and -- more importantly -- shooting afterwards. A T-70/Fang/Silencer who goes for a block, fails, and takes a bunch of damage still gets to turn around and throw a bunch of dice back. So long as the target was worth more (and sometimes that can't be measured in points), you're winning the trade.

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