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1 minute ago, Sturn said:

This got me thinking. I like the idea of a bacta version healer useful out of combat with slower healing. A bacta-patch perhaps that takes an hour for the affects to set in. Then, a stimpack could be the temporary healing of Wounds that goes away in something like 10 minutes to a 1/2 hour.

Perhaps the bacta patch heals 1 wound every hour for 5 hours, second heals 1 every hour for 4 hours, and so on. So if you applied 5 bacta patches at once, you'd heal 5 the first hour, 4 the second, and so on. The effects of this would be permanent.

Change to stims:
They heal wounds as per usual, but the effects wear off over time, the first one used dropping 1 wound every hour for 5 hours, the second dropping 1 wound every hour for 4 hours, and so on. So if you applied 5 stims, you'd drop 5 wounds the first hour, 4 the second, and so on.

This way, you would use bacta patches basically as a follow-up to stims to keep the patient stable (though you could also use them by themselves).

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5 minutes ago, Sturn said:

My only concern would be the paperwork. Best keep each very simple?

Easy enough to hand-wave if you have adequate supplies and downtime. If you have a five-hour gap, you simply deduct wounds for the stims you used unless you follow up with the bacta patches, and if you only use bacta patches, you just heal wounds like you would with stims.

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Gotta say, I really liked Whafrog's take on the whole thing. I ran it by some of my players, added some stuff and tweaked some others. Here's my current take on it. I'll see how it goes. I should mention that I don't normally require a Destiny flip for using Dark Side pips.

 

Stimpacks: Gone. Replaced by…

Rallying Surge: Once per encounter, as a maneuver, make a Simple (Difficulty 0) Resilience Roll.  Heal a number of wounds equal to 3+ Net Successes, and recover Strain equal to Advantage. You may spend your Rallying Surge on an Engaged ally, instead rolling either Leadership, Medicine, or Coercion.  Each use of Rallying Surge on a given character increases the Difficulty by 1.

Heal/Harm Power: TBD

Stimpack Specialization works basically as written. Your Rallying Surges heal 1 extra wound per rank of Stimpack Specialization. 

Exceeding Wound Threshold: A PC or Nemesis who exceeds his Wound Threshold is no longer immediately Incapacitated.  Instead, he upgrades the Difficulty of all checks by 1, and will become Incapacitated when he exceeds his WTx2. Note that every time he suffers wounds above his Threshold, he still suffers a Critical Injury.  Such a character is advised to retreat or surrender.

Exceeding Strain Threshold: As with wounds, a PC or Nemesis who exceeds his Strain Threshold is not incapacitated, but will become so when he exceeds STx2.  However, while above ST, he may not willingly suffer Strain, and is Disoriented (suffers 1 Setback die to all rolls).

A Character who exceeds both WT and ST becomes Incapacitated.

Force Pips: Using the Force while over Strain Threshold is difficult.  A Light Side Force-user may still use Dark Pips, but instead of suffering Strain, they must flip a Destiny Point and take two Conflict for each Dark Pip used.
A Dark-sider who wishes to use White Pips must flip Destiny, and suffer a Wound for each White Pip he wishes to use.
 

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Each to their own, certainly, but I'm interested in why the OP feels that stims are immersion breaking.  SW clearly has bacta tanks that virtually bring you back from the dead (or literally in the case of a certain emperor), can replace limbs with fully functional mechanical prosthetics, and wearable life support apparatus, but no portable, easily used first aid? 

Just thinking about the original three movies, how often does one of the main characters get injured?  A New Hope?  None that I can recall.  Empire Strikes Back?  Frozen Luke, not really the same thing.  Han gets tortured, but certainly he's not going to be allowed any first aid, defeats the purpose.  Luke looses a hand, too severe, but once he is on the Falcon with the medical unit on his stump he seems pretty spry for that trauma!  Return of the Jedi?  Leia gets shot in the shoulder, it is "not bad", and by the end of the day she is fine for the party!   Life can be dangerous, sure, but, IMHO, it seems reasonable that life saving tech advances along with life taking.

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but it sounds like "if it didn't happen on screen that it doesn't exist", which, IMHO, is too strict an interpretation.  Not much ends up on screen, there is a whole universe out there!

The lack of powerful, portable, available first aid is what I would find immersion breaking.

   

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39 minutes ago, RickInVA said:

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but it sounds like "if it didn't happen on screen that it doesn't exist", which, IMHO, is too strict an interpretation.  Not much ends up on screen, there is a whole universe out there!

That's exactly NOT the point.  For me, "hit points" have never made sense anyway, whether in Star Wars or D&D or "real life", so having a game that requires one mechanic to cure the ills of another mechanic is a band-aid on a band-aid.

It also involves a pointless amount of time spent bean-counting rather than dramatic storytelling.  I don't know about you, but I signed up to GM, not be a computer game interface; and my players signed up to engage in a story, not inventory management.

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1 hour ago, whafrog said:

That's exactly NOT the point.  For me, "hit points" have never made sense anyway, whether in Star Wars or D&D or "real life", so having a game that requires one mechanic to cure the ills of another mechanic is a band-aid on a band-aid.

It also involves a pointless amount of time spent bean-counting rather than dramatic storytelling.  I don't know about you, but I signed up to GM, not be a computer game interface; and my players signed up to engage in a story, not inventory management.

Seriously, I am a CPA, so Inventory Management is something I really enjoy.  

Everyone, 100%, has their own idea of what to put in and get out of Role Playing.  Personally I look at Role Playing as an alternate reality.  For me please emphasize the "reality" part.  The more I feel that I am really in that setting, the more I enjoy it.  In my actual life things like money, transportation, gas for the car, eating, etc., are things I need to be concerned about, so I want to have to be concerned about them in the game.  Those are challenges to overcome.  If I accumulate enough money that I can cease to be concerned about it for a while, I feel a sense of accomplishment.  Dying is always a possibility.  I'm happy to avoid it.

I also try to understand other people's points of view, so I engage in conversation.  Apologies if I offended.

 

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3 hours ago, whafrog said:

That's exactly NOT the point.  For me, "hit points" have never made sense anyway, whether in Star Wars or D&D or "real life", so having a game that requires one mechanic to cure the ills of another mechanic is a band-aid on a band-aid.

It also involves a pointless amount of time spent bean-counting rather than dramatic storytelling.  I don't know about you, but I signed up to GM, not be a computer game interface; and my players signed up to engage in a story, not inventory management.

So what is your solution to tracking damage? While hit points are weird i havent seen a better way to handle it. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

So what is your solution to tracking damage? While hit points are weird i havent seen a better way to handle it. 

I've been a big fan of Savage Worlds for... yikes, I just realized it must be almost 15 years now.  I really like their system, which has Shaken 1-3 wounds, and Incapacitated.  The Apocalypse games usually use something a bit less hit-pointy.

While I can't speak for Whafrog, I really appreciate L5R's distinction that Fatigue is NOT the same thing as being wounded. Star Wars Wounds and D&D Hit Points have always been a combination of fatigue and wounds, and the line between them changes a lot from table to table.  I've played in numerous D&D games where someone takes a lot of damage and the DM says, "the dark knight runs you through!" Nevermind that the guy with a sword through his guts still has half of his Hit Points remaining.

So I try to say that anything that only causes "damage" isn't really a serious wound. Taking 15 damage from an orc doesn't necessarily mean he cut you, it means his axe slammed into your shield hard enough that your arm nearly gives out from the impact. A Stormtrooper causing 12 damage with his blaster rifle didn't shoot you, but the blaster bolt passed close enough to your skin that it managed to burn you, or hit the wall next to you, exploding and showering you with sparks.  When Leia took that shot to the shoulder on Endor, that was a Critical Injury, not just "taking damage." Vader and Obi-Wan's duel on the Death Star caused them both to take a lot of "damage," but no Crits as far as I see. I would say that the characters in the movies take a lot of "hits" and "damage" that don't really look like much on screen.

One of the reasons I like Whafrog's take is that it reminds me of The Angry GM's "fighting spirit" rules (not a big fan of his writing style, but I like his ideas). It gives a space between "I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm down." There's a clear point at which the player knows that if he keeps fighting, his character may die. If my PCs all get knocked out, I'm not just going to kill their characters. That feels cheap.  However, if a character is over his WT and wants to keep pushing, now it's on him and the player.  He knows the risk, and he's taking it rather than surrender or retreat.

It also gives us a way to kill Nemeses without GM fiat or murdering an unconscious person. We just finished Chronicles of the Gatekeeper (spoiler alert), and part of the final conflict is supposed to be choosing whether to pull your punches and not kill the boss, or to go ahead and finish him.  Which means the GM needs to call out to the players, "Oh, by the way, if you defeat him with Wounds, he'll die, because that's just how we're playing this fight." With Whafrog's rule applied to a Nemesis, the boss is taking a Critical Injury every time he gets hit past a certain point, which means killing him through Crits becomes a distinct possibility.

Edited by The Grand Falloon

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4 hours ago, whafrog said:

That's exactly NOT the point.  For me, "hit points" have never made sense anyway, whether in Star Wars or D&D or "real life", so having a game that requires one mechanic to cure the ills of another mechanic is a band-aid on a band-aid.

It also involves a pointless amount of time spent bean-counting rather than dramatic storytelling.  I don't know about you, but I signed up to GM, not be a computer game interface; and my players signed up to engage in a story, not inventory management.

But wether it is hit points, wound threshold, or other mechanics to determ hits on chars you always have to keep track of it, right?

Apart from this, I never got the feel that keeping track of this damaged the game flow in any way. 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for the input everyone.  Here is what I (by "I", I mean others in this thread 😁) have come up with:

Stimpacks:  To maintain the verisimilitude of the Star Wars setting, stimpacks do not exist in these games.  However, the stimpack usage of a Medpac is still available as a limited use per the Medpac description.  As a consequence of this change, the following additional option will be available:

  • Rallying Surge:  Once per encounter, a character may make a Simple Resilience check.  The character recovers a number of wounds equal to 3+ the number of successes, and recovers a number of strain equal to the number of advantages rolled. You may spend your Rallying Surge on an Engaged ally instead, by making a Simple Leadership, Medicine, or Coercion check.  Each use of Rallying Surge on a single character increases the difficulty of the check by 1.

 

 

Edited by Inquisitor Tremayne

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7 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:

I've been a big fan of Savage Worlds for... yikes, I just realized it must be almost 15 years now.  I really like their system, which has Shaken 1-3 wounds, and Incapacitated.  The Apocalypse games usually use something a bit less hit-pointy.

While I can't speak for Whafrog, I really appreciate L5R's distinction that Fatigue is NOT the same thing as being wounded. Star Wars Wounds and D&D Hit Points have always been a combination of fatigue and wounds, and the line between them changes a lot from table to table.  I've played in numerous D&D games where someone takes a lot of damage and the DM says, "the dark knight runs you through!" Nevermind that the guy with a sword through his guts still has half of his Hit Points remaining.

So I try to say that anything that only causes "damage" isn't really a serious wound. Taking 15 damage from an orc doesn't necessarily mean he cut you, it means his axe slammed into your shield hard enough that your arm nearly gives out from the impact. A Stormtrooper causing 12 damage with his blaster rifle didn't shoot you, but the blaster bolt passed close enough to your skin that it managed to burn you, or hit the wall next to you, exploding and showering you with sparks.  When Leia took that shot to the shoulder on Endor, that was a Critical Injury, not just "taking damage." Vader and Obi-Wan's duel on the Death Star caused them both to take a lot of "damage," but no Crits as far as I see. I would say that the characters in the movies take a lot of "hits" and "damage" that don't really look like much on screen.

One of the reasons I like Whafrog's take is that it reminds me of The Angry GM's "fighting spirit" rules (not a big fan of his writing style, but I like his ideas). It gives a space between "I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm down." There's a clear point at which the player knows that if he keeps fighting, his character may die. If my PCs all get knocked out, I'm not just going to kill their characters. That feels cheap.  However, if a character is over his WT and wants to keep pushing, now it's on him and the player.  He knows the risk, and he's taking it rather than surrender or retreat.

It also gives us a way to kill Nemeses without GM fiat or murdering an unconscious person. We just finished Chronicles of the Gatekeeper (spoiler alert), and part of the final conflict is supposed to be choosing whether to pull your punches and not kill the boss, or to go ahead and finish him.  Which means the GM needs to call out to the players, "Oh, by the way, if you defeat him with Wounds, he'll die, because that's just how we're playing this fight." With Whafrog's rule applied to a Nemesis, the boss is taking a Critical Injury every time he gets hit past a certain point, which means killing him through Crits becomes a distinct possibility.

i hate savage worlds. And everything i have ever heard about thenshaken mechanic is that it effectively removes fun while you try and get unshaken so you can actually donanything. Lets notbuse that mechanic. 

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9 hours ago, Daeglan said:

So what is your solution to tracking damage? While hit points are weird i havent seen a better way to handle it. 

Crits.  Or Savage Worlds actual Wounds.

I don't mind having a pool of resources (strain, fatigue, etc) for the player to allocate as they see fit to represent extra exertion, or to represent exhaustion.  But the problem with "hit points" or "wound threshold" is exemplified in this thread and even your choice of words..."tracking damage".  There is no damage that isn't severe.  You can't take a blaster shot to the face because your WT is lower than the blaster's damage output.  So the rest is avoiding damage due to a mix of luck, training, fortitude and willpower.

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

i hate savage worlds. And everything i have ever heard about thenshaken mechanic is that it effectively removes fun while you try and get unshaken so you can actually donanything. Lets notbuse that mechanic.

How about "Lets" do whatever we want?  I'm not telling you to stop using stims.

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3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

i hate savage worlds. And everything i have ever heard about thenshaken mechanic is that it effectively removes fun while you try and get unshaken so you can actually donanything. Lets notbuse that mechanic. 

they patched that well enough a couple of years back. Spend a Bennie and you are good to go.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, kaosoe said:

they patched that well enough a couple of years back. Spend a Bennie and you are good to go.

Still cant stand it. for example your stats dont really play a role at all. I just dont like savage worlds at all.

Edited by Daeglan

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2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

for example your stats dont really play a role at all.

Yes they do, it's against your Toughness, if I recall correctly.  But even if not, that would be an easy fix.

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19 minutes ago, whafrog said:

Yes they do, it's against your Toughness, if I recall correctly.  But even if not, that would be an easy fix.

They dont seem to give you a better starting point for skills based on that stat. which is weird for me. so you naturally dextrous and that doesnt help your shooting ability. that is just weird.

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37 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

They dont seem to give you a better starting point for skills based on that stat. which is weird for me. so you naturally dextrous and that doesnt help your shooting ability. that is just weird.

I'm not sure how that is relevant to wound resolution.

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Fully understanding, and agreeing, that people can do what they want, I offer up an alternative view.

As written the game has stimpacks.  Also as written they are injectables, "filled with medicine, bacta, and painkillers".  Apart from the "inventory control" aspect, which I have to agree occurs, I would like to suggest a slightly different version of what a stimpack is.  

First, I note that it takes a maneuver to use.  I think this is significant, as in the narrative system here a maneuver is a significant event.  You can do a lot with a maneuver.  Far more, IMHO, than to merely pull out, uncap, and stick yourself with something.  While I had not given it any thought before, it occurs to me now that taking a maneuver there must be more to it than that.  I now imagine that the user is doing something to bind their wounds, or otherwise treat the impacted area.  Maybe we don't take the description too literally.  Maybe there are "stimpacks" that are big medicine impregnated adhesive bandages?  Maybe a spray?  Maybe a tablet one takes orally?  Maybe a combination. There are endless options of what a "stimpack" represents, within the scope that it takes a maneuver and it doesn't require a roll to succeed.

If it was an incidental to use a stimpack then I would feel that the only thing that could be represented is a self injection.  But as a maneuver there is clearly more involved.  It is limited failure proof self healing.  If two characters were taking cover behind something, and one of them was wounded and the other had a medical kit, would you allow them to use it on the wounded character as a maneuver?  If yes, then the stimpack takes the same amount of time and concentration, clearly representing more activity than sticking it in your leg like an epi-pen.

Your Mileage May Vary

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1 hour ago, RickInVA said:

I would like to suggest a slightly different version of what a stimpack is. 

This has already been suggested more than once already just in this thread, and summarily dismissed.

I really can't fathom the devotion exhibited towards this mechanic, and whether or not others use it.  There's more addiction here than in the actual game!  :ph34r:

 

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Make the stims a "once per encounter" or "once per day" resource, and the problem goes away, with a fix that requires the least change in the mechanics/bookeeping. Do this, and you basically give the PCs the option to buy 5 points of emergency Wound Threshold.

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21 hours ago, whafrog said:

There is no damage that isn't severe. You can't take a blaster shot to the face because your WT is lower than the blaster's damage output.  So the rest is avoiding damage due to a mix of luck, training, fortitude and willpower.

Tell that to the aliens in XCOM 😄

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I really can't fathom the devotion exhibited towards this mechanic, and whether or not others use it.  There's more addiction here than in the actual game!  

It is not meant offensive, my impression of your postings is a very adamant, absolute one. There is not much giving in your writing so I am wondering how you are accusing others of devotion to a mechanic or rule. Maybe I am just missing a point here or there because english is not my origin language.

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