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Mandalore of the Rings

What would you like the next SW cartoon to be about?

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13 minutes ago, Harlock999 said:

Other than Quinlan Vos?  And maybe Rahm Kota (if you count Force Unleashed as canonical)?  Who's out there?

And even if there are other Jedi in hiding?  They're clearly not involved with the Rebellion, Vader, or have anything to do with a prophecy.  They've become "nobodies" after Order 66, and, as far as the Star Wars audience is concerned, they're going to remain nobodies ... at least until after Return of the Jedi.

Kanan, Ezra, and Ahsoka, on the other hand, were out there "making a difference!"  And interacting with, as I already pointed out, major players just one year before the events of Episode IV.  Ugh.

 

[EDITED to replace Shaak Ti - who was killed - with Rahm Kota.  He survived the events of Force Unleashed, didn't he?]

See there is your problem. The Galaxy is a HUUUUUUUUUGE place. It is called the Rebel Alliance because there are multiple factions. SO why wouldnt their be other force users. just because you never heard of them does not mean they aren't there.

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12 minutes ago, Harlock999 said:

For episodic (and sometimes serialized) TV, yeah, I get it.  For a serialized show that's part of a much larger universe that includes known "rules" and prophecies?  No, your excuse/line-of-reasoning doesn't quite cut it.

Why? Under such circumstances, the main characters should take a back seat to other characters who aren’t even featured in the series? As shown, these sacrosanct “rules” and “prophecies” (no prophecy about Luke in the OT, which you claim the mere existence of two characters destroys the “core premise” of) weren’t damaged, as the team behind the series made sure that all the pieces were in their proper place at its end.

16 minutes ago, Harlock999 said:

And how does Yoda break the premise?!?  He's there to train and mentor the last hope for the galaxy.  Yoda is integral to the premise, as is Obi-Wan.

If the presence and removal of Jedi other than Luke destroys the “core presence,” then so to does the existence and willful inaction of a living Jedi Master.

12 minutes ago, Harlock999 said:

Other than Quinlan Vos?  And maybe Rahm Kota (if you count Force Unleashed as canonical)?  Who's out there?

Looking only at current canon:

We’ve seen nothing (so far) to suggest that Cal Kestis didn’t survive into the period.

A storyline in the Darth Vader comic established a surviving Jedi set on revenge hiding on Mon Cala.

(On the work clock right now, so can only go by what’s readily at mind without research.)

Looking at Legends, you couldn’t throw a rock without hitting a Jedi who’d survived (usually, only to be killed by the end of the story), which led to the Purge comic one-shot, which introduced the idea that the story of Vader hunting down and killing the Jedi was mostly propaganda.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

See there is your problem. The Galaxy is a HUUUUUUUUUGE place. It is called the Rebel Alliance because there are multiple factions. SO why wouldnt their be other force users. just because you never heard of them does not mean they aren't there.

And the problem I see is...

If there are other Force users out there aiding the Rebellion - in this HUUUUUUUUUUGE galaxy - then why don't they take on Vader or Palpatine?  Because that would break the prophecy that Luke is the galaxy's ONLY hope.  (Yes, yes...  Leia is "another.")

Thus, the OT's core premise is ruined...

...again, if you happen to believe there are all these other Jedi out there doin' their thing!

 

Edited by Harlock999

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Just now, Harlock999 said:

And the problem I see is...

If there are other Force users out there aiding the Rebellion - in this HUUUUUUUUUUGE galaxy - then why don't they take on Vader or Palpatine?  Because that would break the prophecy that Luke is the galaxy's ONLY hope.  (Yes, yes...  Leia is "another.")

Thus, the OT's core premise is ruined.

Again, if you believe there are all these other Jedi out there doin' their thing!

Because they know their limitations.  You can help without having to be suicidal about it. in fact you do far more good if you dont head straight for making the vain attempt to take out the emporer.

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29 minutes ago, Harlock999 said:

For episodic (and sometimes serialized) TV, yeah, I get it.  For a serialized show that's part of a much larger universe that includes known "rules" and prophecies?  No, your excuse/line-of-reasoning doesn't quite cut it.

To provide another example, since I’ve got BBC America’s marathon going as background noise while I work (or slack off to type this 🤣)—

Deep Space Nine, beginning in its third season, introduced and ramped up the threat of the Dominion. The station, being parked at the wormhole, was at the front line. The Dominion was a Starfleet priority.

Where was the Enterprise, the flagship of Starfleet? The D wasn’t destroyed until after the Dominion became a threat. (We can roughly estimate when Generations happened by Worf’s transfer to DS9 at the beginning of season 4), and we know the E was in service during the war (First Contact being the first appearance of the gray uniforms, which were added to DS9 partway through season 5). On TNG, the Enterprise would be right in the thick of it. But the story was being told on DS9, so no Enterprise. (The crew didn’t even show up for Worf’s wedding to Jadzia.)

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3 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Why? Under such circumstances, the main characters should take a back seat to other characters who aren’t even featured in the series? As shown, these sacrosanct “rules” and “prophecies” (no prophecy about Luke in the OT, which you claim the mere existence of two characters destroys the “core premise” of) weren’t damaged, as the team behind the series made sure that all the pieces were in their proper place at its end.

If the presence and removal of Jedi other than Luke destroys the “core presence,” then so to does the existence and willful inaction of a living Jedi Master.

Looking only at current canon:

We’ve seen nothing (so far) to suggest that Cal Kestis didn’t survive into the period.

A storyline in the Darth Vader comic established a surviving Jedi set on revenge hiding on Mon Cala.

(On the work clock right now, so can only go by what’s readily at mind without research.)

Looking at Legends, you couldn’t throw a rock without hitting a Jedi who’d survived (usually, only to be killed by the end of the story), which led to the Purge comic one-shot, which introduced the idea that the story of Vader hunting down and killing the Jedi was mostly propaganda.

The "mentor figure" is very different from the "active participant."  Yoda, again, is integral to the premise; he, in no way, harms it.

I wasn't aware the new Marvel comics were canonical.  Ha.  Marvel's publishing division is going down the toilet, as evidenced by sales figures and the fan blowback to agenda-driven storylines.  So I, personally, would never use that material as back up.  I mean, you're dealing with artists/activists working on material produced AFTER Rebels.

As for Legends?  Take your time.  I'll admit I didn't read any of the novels taking place between Episodes III and IV, but I did read a bunch of the comics coming out during those Dark Horse days.  I sincerely do not recall that many Jedi surviving Vader's purge other than Quin.  (Although the propaganda angle is actually pretty clever.  But even if we take that at face value, those Jedi who did survive, again, should have become nobodies.  They should not have become active participants in the ongoing war against the Empire during Luke's formative years, and, like Vos, should have lived far away from the Jedi teachings.)

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Because they know their limitations.  You can help without having to be suicidal about it. in fact you do far more good if you dont head straight for making the vain attempt to take out the emporer.

You're missing the point.

If other Jedi are actively assisting the Rebellion?  Then what makes Luke (and possibly Leia) the last hope for the galaxy?  Why would Obi-Wan and Yoda lie in wait?  Why would Episode VI be titled "Return of the Jedi?"

If other Jedi are active in the years before Episode IV, then you've broken the core premise of the OT.

 

Edited by Harlock999

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2 minutes ago, Harlock999 said:

You're missing the point.

If other Jedi are actively assisting the Rebellion?  Then what makes Luke (and possibly Leia) the last hope for the galaxy?  Why would Obi-Wan and Yoda lie in wait?  Why would Episode VI be titled "Return of the Jedi?"

If other Jedi are active in the years before Episode IV, then you've broken the core premise of the OT.

 

No it has not broken the premise at all. The reason they are the last hope is because they are the only ones of a strong enough lineage to do so.
Ahsoka gave up the title of Jedi. as likely many others did so. Sometimes you shouldnt take things so literally.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

To provide another example, since I’ve got BBC America’s marathon going as background noise while I work (or slack off to type this 🤣)—

Deep Space Nine, beginning in its third season, introduced and ramped up the threat of the Dominion. The station, being parked at the wormhole, was at the front line. The Dominion was a Starfleet priority.

Where was the Enterprise, the flagship of Starfleet? The D wasn’t destroyed until after the Dominion became a threat. (We can roughly estimate when Generations happened by Worf’s transfer to DS9 at the beginning of season 4), and we know the E was in service during the war (First Contact being the first appearance of the gray uniforms, which were added to DS9 partway through season 5). On TNG, the Enterprise would be right in the thick of it. But the story was being told on DS9, so no Enterprise. (The crew didn’t even show up for Worf’s wedding to Jadzia.)

I'm also watching DS9 on BBC while I'm working (or supposed to be working)!  Ha.  😎

Anyway...  We find out in a future episode that the Enterprise is indeed fighting the war.  Its name is thrown out there with a few others like the Musashi or whatever.  And the events of Insurrection (however terrible that film is) are indeed meant to occur within the Dominion War timeframe.

As for the TNG cast not showing up for Worf's wedding?  Well, that was a logistical issue obviously.  The producers could have gotten Riker and LaForge (as Frakes and Burton were directing Trek at that point), but none of the others.  So why bother?

In animation, anything is possible.  But that doesn't mean it should be possible.

 

Edited by Harlock999

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10 minutes ago, Harlock999 said:

If there are other Force users out there aiding the Rebellion - in this HUUUUUUUUUUGE galaxy - then why don't they take on Vader or Palpatine?  Because that would break the prophecy that Luke is the galaxy's ONLY hope.  (Yes, yes...  Leia is "another.")

Where was this “prophecy?”

Siccing Luke on them was purely Obi-Wan and Yoda’s idea. (Well, based on more recent information, Obi-Wan’s...Yoda expected to train Leia.)

Honestly, the other survivors didn’t take on Palpatine or Vader because we and the creators know they wouldn’t win. In the case of Rebels, as the team was becoming more directly involved with the Alliance (at the beginning of season 2), they did encounter Vader...and promptly had their behinds handed to them. Kanan and Ezra, having dealt with the Grand Inquisitor (as much through luck as skill) in the season 1 finale, confidently assumed they could also handle this (to them) newcomer...and it didn’t go well. When encountering him again (the season 2 finale), only Ahsoka’s intervention prevented Vader from slaughtering Ezra, allowing Kanan and Ezra to escape.

Even with Luke, it was specifically the familiar connection that led to Vader’s turn and the Emperor’s defeat, and something that Luke intentionally played up in their second encounter (after a definitive loss the first time around).

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2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No it has not broken the premise at all. The reason they are the last hope is because they are the only ones of a strong enough lineage to do so.
Ahsoka gave up the title of Jedi. as likely many others did so. Sometimes you shouldnt take things so literally.

Look, you seem like a good dude (or lady?)...  So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Cool?  😎

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2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Where was this “prophecy?”

Siccing Luke on them was purely Obi-Wan and Yoda’s idea. (Well, based on more recent information, Obi-Wan’s...Yoda expected to train Leia.)

Honestly, the other survivors didn’t take on Palpatine or Vader because we and the creators know they wouldn’t win. In the case of Rebels, as the team was becoming more directly involved with the Alliance (at the beginning of season 2), they did encounter Vader...and promptly had their behinds handed to them. Kanan and Ezra, having dealt with the Grand Inquisitor (as much through luck as skill) in the season 1 finale, confidently assumed they could also handle this (to them) newcomer...and it didn’t go well. When encountering him again (the season 2 finale), only Ahsoka’s intervention prevented Vader from slaughtering Ezra, allowing Kanan and Ezra to escape.

Even with Luke, it was specifically the familiar connection that led to Vader’s turn and the Emperor’s defeat, and something that Luke intentionally played up in their second encounter (after a definitive loss the first time around).

"Only YOU can face Vader."

"That boy is our only hope"

Blah, blah, blah, "chosen one," blah, "bring down the dark side," blah, blah, blah, "fulfill the prophecy" ... throughout the prequels.

The very name RETURN OF THE JEDI for Episode VI.


Look, like I typed to Daeglan, you also seem to be a good dude.  So I'm fine at this point with agreeing to disagree.

Plus, we have DS9 to watch (and work to pretend to do).

Later!

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Posted (edited)
Quote

 

"Only YOU can face Vader."

"That boy is our only hope"

Blah, blah, blah, "chosen one," blah, "bring down the dark side," blah, blah, blah, "fulfill the prophecy" ... throughout the prequels.

The very name RETURN OF THE JEDI for Episode VI.

 

This is only "evidence" that Yoda and Kenobi think that only Luke or Leia will be strong enough to face and destroy Vader and the Emperor (Being children of the one man with the strongest force basis thats good reasoning for sure.). Nothing more nothing less. That does not say that there are other force users or Jedi with less power somewhere out there.

RETURN only means exactly that. Return and face the enemy.

Edited by dreenan

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9 minutes ago, Harlock999 said:

"Only YOU can face Vader."

"That boy is our only hope"

Blah, blah, blah, "chosen one," blah, "bring down the dark side," blah, blah, blah, "fulfill the prophecy" ... throughout the prequels.

The very name RETURN OF THE JEDI for Episode VI.


Look, like I typed to Daeglan, you also seem to be a good dude.  So I'm fine at this point with agreeing to disagree.

Plus, we have DS9 to watch (and work to pretend to do).

Later!

And in the Cartoon they showed that only Luke stood a chance vs. Vader.  And it is clear the Jedi did not understand the Prophesy.

 And the Jedi could only really return once Vader and Palps were removed...

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3 minutes ago, Harlock999 said:

Anyway...  We find out in a future episode that the Enterprise is indeed fighting the war.  Its name is thrown out there with a few others like the Musashi or whatever.  And the events of Insurrection (however terrible that film is) are indeed meant to occur within the Dominion War timeframe.

You’re kinda making my point for me. The Enterprise was conveniently elsewhere, rather than the front line, because the story wasn’t being told on TNG. At the height of the war, the flagship, and arguably the most advanced ship in the fleet was sent...to check on a survey team because Data was on loan to them.

 

8 minutes ago, Harlock999 said:

As for the TNG cast not showing up for Worf's wedding?  Well, that was a logistical issue obviously.  The producers could have gotten Riker and LaForge (as Frakes and Burton were directing Trek at that point), but none of the others.  So why bother?

Logistics...and not wanting to overshadow the regular cast of the series with six prominent guest stars. Part of TNG’s “core premise” was that the Enterprise was the most important ship in Starfleet, crewed by the best and the brightest available, at the center of the most important events to face the Federation. But they weren’t front and center for the Dominion war...because that story wasn’t being told on their series. On a smaller scale, with the character’s transition to DS9, Worf’s story was no longer a TNG story, so having the Enterprise crew appear was not a priority. (Meanwhile, as TNG continued on the big screen, Nemesis ignored the conclusion of Worf’s DS9 story completely.)

 

25 minutes ago, Harlock999 said:

I wasn't aware the new Marvel comics were canonical.  Ha.  Marvel's publishing division is going down the toilet, as evidenced by sales figures and the fan blowback to agenda-driven storylines.  So I, personally, would never use that material as back up.  I mean, you're dealing with artists/activists working on material produced AFTER Rebels.

And, with Rebels, we’re looking at material produced after the OT. In both cases, care has been taken to make sure that, by the time the stories approach the movies, the pieces are in their proper places.

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13 minutes ago, Harlock999 said:

“Only YOU can face Vader."

"That boy is our only hope"

That’s not prophecy. That’s Obi-Wan and Yoda weaponizing Luke’s lineage.

15 minutes ago, Harlock999 said:

Blah, blah, blah, "chosen one," blah, "bring down the dark side," blah, blah, blah, "fulfill the prophecy" ... throughout the prequels.

All focused on Anakin, not Luke.

15 minutes ago, Harlock999 said:

The very name RETURN OF THE JEDI for Episode VI.

Yes...a Jedi, Luke, returned from defeat to stand against the Empire again.

Or, a more esoteric read, Vader returning to the light.

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2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

That’s not prophecy. That’s Obi-Wan and Yoda weaponizing Luke’s lineage.

All focused on Anakin, not Luke.

Yes...a Jedi, Luke, returned from defeat to stand against the Empire again.

Or, a more esoteric read, Vader returning to the light.

No one knows about Padme's children till the end of Revenge of the Sith. And the Prophesy does not deal with Luke. It refers to Anakin.

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On 5/31/2020 at 9:57 AM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

That part was really a joke (hence the asterisk), but the principle is still sound.

Yeah, I knew it was a joke.  I was just sort of continuing it for fun. 

Which team are you talking about?  I don't know much about NFL (I assume that's what you mean).  I like AFL and love the Fremantle Dockers!  Some years they REALLY suck.  In the NBA, I love the Thunder and hate Houston (among other teams... it is as important to have teams to hate, as it is to have teams to love...  but what to do when your favorite team's best player goes to the team you hate?!  So now I sort of like Houston a tiny bit, because of Westbrook...  But, interestingly (and inconsistently) I didn't start liking the Warriors when Durant left... I just started hating Durant...  Funny and silly, it's all just a game.  None of the hate is really real (and probably the love isn't based on anything real either...)

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5 minutes ago, Mandalore of the Rings said:

Yeah, I knew it was a joke.  I was just sort of continuing it for fun. 

Which team are you talking about?  I don't know much about NFL (I assume that's what you mean).  I like AFL and love the Fremantle Dockers!  Some years they REALLY suck.  In the NBA, I love the Thunder and hate Houston (among other teams... it is as important to have teams to hate, as it is to have teams to love...  but what to do when your favorite team's best player goes to the team you hate?!  So now I sort of like Houston a tiny bit, because of Westbrook...  But, interestingly (and inconsistently) I didn't start liking the Warriors when Durant left... I just started hating Durant...  Funny and silly, it's all just a game.  None of the hate is really real (and probably the love isn't based on anything real either...)

Now we're getting really off-topic. :D

Yeah, NFL. I don't follow the NBA at all. It isn't just NFL though, it's college too. However, since I inferred that the fans of the rivals of my teams are jerks... maybe best to not say which ones. ;)

Ah, whatever. Surely no one really cares all that much... (famous last words)

In no particular order: Carolina Panthers, New Orleans Saints (yes, I know they're rivals. I love them both and there ain't nuthin' you can do about it. I've had this conversation with several people), Baltimore Ravens, Detroit Lions (they really suck), NC State, Michigan State, and the Florida Gators.

As for players I really like, I'd have to say Luke Kuechly (gonna miss him), Drew Brees, Alvin Kamara, Lamar Jackson, Benjamin Watson, and others that aren't going to mind right now. I admit, I don't follow college sports all that closely, and I only really follow NFL during the actual season.

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On 5/31/2020 at 4:25 PM, Harlock999 said:

And then, I'll come back and try to outline my thoughts.  Cool?  😎

Awesome!  But don't feel forced to do it.  You don't have to watch anything you don't want to.  Just don't say it's bad UNTIL you've watched it.  It's like my kids saying they don't like Lasagna but they've never actually tried it.  Anyway, it's all all good.  Whatever.

 

On 5/31/2020 at 4:51 PM, Harlock999 said:

No one on these boards should ever feel compelled to "prove" their fandom.

That's all fun.  I agree with most of that, and I never said you weren't a fan or anything (I don't think)... must of been others.  The main thing I disagreed with is not even your opinion of Rebels but the fact that you hadn't watched them all and said it was objective. 

That being said, it's a fun exercise!  Listing all the things you love about SW.

On 5/31/2020 at 8:41 PM, Harlock999 said:

Think about Rebels.  Now remove Ahsoka and Rex.  What do you think of the series now?

Still would really enjoy it without them.  In fact, I hated the idea of any SW cartoon before watching Rebels with my kids.  I just thought they'd all be dumb.  Hhahah, I thought they were objectively dumb!  (kidding).  And I'm probably in the minority here, since I watched Rebels BEFORE CW (and still haven't finished certain episodes of CW, about 80% done I'd say).  Then when I watched Rebels with my kids it was actually fun and grew on me (even though some stuff was dumb-- like the pufferpig...).  So I didn't even know who Rex was and all I knew of Ahsoka was the CW movie which I really disliked.

14 hours ago, Harlock999 said:

who fly around on helicopter-lightsabers!

Ha!  That one I DO agree with.  Hated those lightsabers, but did like the Spanish Inquistion.  Don't agree with much else though.  I thought the point of Ezra (SPOILERS-- since you haven't seen it yet?) flying off into Unknown Regions was so that Luke would be the "only" hope again. 

14 hours ago, dreenan said:

What I hated though, were the Inquisitor Lightsaber

Ha!  Me too.

14 hours ago, Harlock999 said:

and looked upon as some sort of future savior...

I might be wrong but I don't think they said that about Ezra at all.  Definitely not on the level of Luke.  If anything it was because he was about the only other Jedi Kanan Jarrus knew?  And he never said he was the chosen one, or saviour or anything (at least not that I remember).  So it turns out some of the things you hate about the show you haven't watched aren't even true?  Maybe? 

14 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

That’s not what I saw. Kanan and Ezra both were indeed seen as valuable assets as being any degree of Jedi. But Ezra was hardly treated any more “amazing” than any other main character of any tv series.

Absolutely.  That's not what I saw either.  And we actually "saw" it.

I don't think the presence of other force users or Jedi in a massive universe messes with much.  It is kind of ridiculous to think Luke would have been the only one.  But he could still be the "only hope".  Other force users couldn't have done it.  Only him (or his sister-- haha). 

 

On 5/31/2020 at 4:51 PM, Harlock999 said:

- As I mentioned, I teach college students these days...  And I'm known for wearing graphic tees underneath blazers.  Probably a quarter of those T-shirts have either Han Solo or the Millennium Falcon on them.

I teach college students too.  And wear a lot of SW shirts while doing it (underneath).  Weirdly, most of them are Yoda shirts and I don't even have any particular love for Yoda (don't hate him either) but my family keeps getting more of them for me!  Also, I never really liked Han that much.  I always liked Luke more...  So I didn't really like what they did with him in the ST, although I liked the ST overall (pretty much), which is something else we disagree on (which is totally fine, because we've both actually watched them! 🙂 ).  I wish they'd make a Solo sequel.  Really enjoyed that one, AND love R1 of course.  I've seen RoSkyWalker twice in theater and am a little afraid of watching it more because I might start liking it less and less...  I am starting to suspect that it wasn't very good but I'll just not go there for a while...  denial?  Probably.  

Never tried X-wing.  I'm an IA man.  Have you played it?  But you might not like Dialla Passil or Davith Elso, 'cause, you know, they are other force users and Luke was supposed to be the only one.  (half kidding-- it's a good game.).

You liked Droids?!  Wow.  

I only saw ESB in theatres (I think I was 4!, saw it with my Dad and brothers.  So great).

Isn't this fun!  We all like Star Wars!  And we'll get more Star Wars...  Good times. 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Mandalore of the Rings said:

Ha!  That one I DO agree with.  Hated those lightsabers, but did like the Spanish Inquistion.  Don't agree with much else though.  I thought the point of Ezra (SPOILERS-- since you haven't seen it yet?) flying off into Unknown Regions was so that Luke would be the "only" hope again. 

The helicopter sabers were goofy as frak, yes, but I’ve found the fun in them. I seem to recall Filoni talking about them in an interview, and the sentiment that I felt was similar to Spielberg’s about the explosion at the end of Jaws: “The audience is with me so far, and in the moment, it’ll just be crazy and cool and fun. Who cares if it makes any bit of sense?”

But do you want to know what’s really fun about them? Personally, I could take or leave them. But my son hates them with a passion. So our mutual GM (in the games we play in) and I (in the games I run) enjoy tweaking him by just mentioning them as a mere possibility in sessions. I remember acting disproportionately thrilled when the ability was mentioned in stats in one of the books: “Look! We’ve got stats to make the spinny-sabers fly!” He just turned, went to his room, and closed the door. One time, our GM actually included one in a game. The reaction was priceless. 😁

Edited by Nytwyng

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1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

But do you want to know what’s really fun about them? Personally, I could take or leave them. But my son hates them with a passion.

That's super fun.  Cool that you play with your son.  I play with my girls pretty often.  They don't really like combat that much (which I do like) so I try and make their campaigns have as little combat as possible... lots of mysteries and sneaking about!  I've just started using background music too and it adds so much atmosphere.

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2 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Now we're getting really off-topic. 

Yeah, who cares.  I think I started this particular post.  Hahaha.

Turns out I don't know much about NFL at all... only heard of one of those people.  I am American, but I'm half Australian too and haven't spent as much time in America.  We did just leave Florida though, where we were for a few months.  Go Gators!  (That's about all I know).

Yeah, I like too rival teams as well (AFL though... that is, REAL football 🙂 ), the West Coast Eagles AND the Fremantle Dockers.  Everyone thinks you have to like one or the other but I don't care.  I like Star Wars and Star Trek.  Marvel and DC. 

Umm, cartoons.  Star Wars animation!  Stuff that's on topic.  Zeb.  Saw Guerrera. 

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17 hours ago, Harlock999 said:

You're missing the point.

If other Jedi are actively assisting the Rebellion?  Then what makes Luke (and possibly Leia) the last hope for the galaxy?  Why would Obi-Wan and Yoda lie in wait?  Why would Episode VI be titled "Return of the Jedi?"

If other Jedi are active in the years before Episode IV, then you've broken the core premise of the OT.

 

I'm just going to weigh in here.

Restricting Jedi in the 'dark times' does sorely limit the stories you can tell and the characters you can meet plus it creates a big statistical anomaly. According to Marvel Comics, which are canon despite some of their problems (and your convenient desire to discard them as reference due to those problems), they state that at least 25+ Jedi survived the purge.

I recall in a Q&A video talking about the 'plethora of survivors' of Order 66, Star Wars Explained cited that even if only 1% of Jedi survived, we're still talking hundreds to a thousand Jedi. Essentially the question called into question the effectiveness of Order 66 and the Clones and I recall the answer being Paraphrased: We've only seen a handful, and to think that that amount is below even 1% shows that the Clones and Order 66 was highly effective. The Jedi Order is a large organization and its members of Knights and Masters aren't just generals. Eno Cordova, from Fallen Order (which I will bring up) was a scholar and what little we do know of him is scarce. However, he wasn't a general leading an army, he was a Jedi Master, but also a scholar who researched ancient races and travelled the galaxy. There will be Jedi who were not in a convenient place where they could be shot by Clone Troopers.

There were survivors, and the very nature of that lead to the Inquisition being formed in order to hunt down and either turn Jedi or eliminate them.

As for impact upon the galaxy. It depends on the individual and their involvement. Quinlan Vos settled down. Kanan effectively gave up being a Jedi and simply laid low while taking any chance he could to 'stick it to the Empire' it wasn't until a potential padawan fell into his lap that he decided he could make a small difference in the galaxy. With the multitude of Rebel Cells in the galaxy, and the very nature of each cell itself being secretive to not expose each other its quite possible that news of Ezra or Kanan never reached Luke...or maybe it did and it inspired him, we don't know. All we know is this: they existed, and they did those things. Anything beyond that is speculation.

Cal Kestis isn't even involved in the Rebellion in Fallen Order and his story is something that I never thought I wanted to see, a Jedi suffering from effectively PTSD and feeling so guilty at his failure to protect his master that the shock to his system damaged his connection to the force. Yes it was done that way for gameplay purposes, I am aware of that but it also resulted in a strong storyline for me that made me care about Cal and he never even got close to getting involved with events. The closest he came was helping Saw Gerrera because it was a mutually beneficial arrangement between the two.

In terms of removing how special Luke and Leia is to the equation and why other Jedi didn't think to take him on; I think we're forgetting the Vader connection. His own children, who he believed dead and the last thing he has of his dead wife whom he adored and idolised to a fault was the only force that could hope to swing him back. If anything Rebels shows how strong that connection is; his two best friends Obi Wan and Ahsoka couldn't bring him back. Ahsoka could barely hold off Vader and that's the trick; taking on the Emperor means taking on the Inquisitors and Vader as well. I imagine the Emperor has some hefty security about his person and its not so simple as to march up to him and swing a lightsaber at him.

If anything Obi Wan and Yoda were calculating in their approach, although completely accidental as well. Their hope was that Luke was just as strong as Vader and so could theoretically take on the Emperor and Vader. What they didn't count on was it to perhaps be the only assassination plan that would work; cause Vader's most trusted and closest bodyguard to turn on him and kill him. As we saw, no one else could achieve that other than Luke, and perhaps Leia should it be necessary.

I don't think anything presented undermines the story of Star Wars, even the weird time travel stuff bought up in Rebels has its place to me. Rebels explores the Force in ways I didn't expect but now that I think about it makes sense. The 'World Between Worlds' as it's called where you can seemingly jump into different moments in time actually makes sense. The Force is something that exists in all living things and binds the galaxy together. It exists throughout space, so in theory why not time? It could also explain how people can see the future and past, maybe they are tapping into this part of the force? I dunno. It's interesting to speculate and think though, and no I don't think it eliminates the 'mystery of the force' only deepens it for me and causes me to ask more questions.

Before anyone states the obvious I'll do it for you. Ahem.

"bUt eeeeBaaak, iF tHe jeeedAi cAn tIMe TrAVel, wHy DoN'T thEy gO bAcK iN tImE aNd sToP oRdEr 66."

That's a very good question. One I don't have a definitive answer to, only speculation. Much like your own speculation that no one tried it or even considered it an idea or knew about it. Here's my take: Because that's not the Jedi way. Jedi are incredibly powerful, ridiculously powerful if you attempt to apply any scientific basis for what they can do. I found this by watching a Death Battle episode that pitted Obi-Wan vs some Naruto character and they highlighted just ridonculously powerful jedi are, but there is one big limiting factor: The Jedi themselves. They actively have this power, but don't use it or only use a fraction of it due to their own beliefs and tenants. I'm sure even the Jedi themselves have discussed how dangerous time travel itself could be.

Return of the Jedi as a title: Vader was defeated, the prophecy to bring balance to the force came to pass, the Emperor was removed from power. It's a fitting title, but it also goes deeper than just what we see to me. To me, Ahsoka, who is no longer a Jedi I will point out, is pegged as the best example of a Jedi and that's pointed out in the latest episodes of the Clone Wars. SPOILERS BEYOND: All the Jedi in that situation all had the same idea "It's me, or them." Yoda did not bat an eyelid when he cut the head off two Clone Troopers. Yes they were about to execute them, but he could have destroyed their weapons, removed them from their hands or even restrain them he is powerful enough to do so. Instead, he outright kills them. Same for any Jedi who defends themself. Ahoska actively attempted to not kill anyone directly and she made a point of that by saying that she wouldn't kill them (and I know, the whole letting Maul out did lead to deaths, but even after that she made it a point 'I will not kill them'.

My point is this; At the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke has surpassed his teachers. He became an exemplary version of a Jedi because he threw down his weapon when he realised what he was doing and said 'he would not fight (kill).' Despite Obi Wan and Yoda repeatedly telling him he must 'face Vader' and 'he is more machine than man' and that by not killing his father the Emperor 'had already won'. Luke, like Ahsoka had truly become what a Jedi is meant to be and not what the Order was during the last decades of the Republic. Now that's not to say that Luke himself might not slip back into the same mistake his teachers would make eventually. Darkness does seemingly run in the family. However at that moment, Luke was a definitive Jedi.

That was the moment the Jedi Returned, when the person who would inherit the legacy of the Jedi stood his ground and embodied the very ideals of the Jedi and in the process defeated the Sith and resulted in a collapse of the Empire. The Jedi did not get their revenge, they returned. Is this merely my interpretation and speculation. Yes, it carries no weight to anyone but me, however it might make some people think. All in all, I don't think survivors of the purge being around and doing positive things in the galaxy means the Jedi are back.

Anyway, to conclude I feel that Rebels adds to the universe and makes it more unique and doesn't take away from the stories we have seen happen. Its a disservice to dismiss it so readily. You don't have to like it, but to plug your ears and go lalalala is the ultimate insult anyone can do to continuity (and I speak for all of Star Wars, not just Rebels. There's some stuff in books I hate...but I still accept it happened). Have your opinions, sure, but canon is canon.

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6 hours ago, Mandalore of the Rings said:

Yeah, who cares.  I think I started this particular post.  Hahaha.

Turns out I don't know much about NFL at all... only heard of one of those people.

Luke Kuechly (Panthers) retired last season after 8 years of being pretty much the best linebacker in football (I strongly suggest you check out his highlight reels), Brees is the Saints' quarterback, and is vying for top all-time quarterback, Lamar Jackson is something of a newbie, but is the Ravens' quarterback and had a fantastic season last year, Alvin Kamara is the Saints' running back, and Benjamin Watson is a tight end and has played for the Saints (twice), the Ravens, the Browns, and (sadly) the Patriots (twice) (though I'm happy for him that he won a Super Bowl with them back in '05, just wish it wasn't with the Pats).

6 hours ago, Mandalore of the Rings said:

Yeah, I like too rival teams as well (AFL though... that is, REAL football 🙂 ), the West Coast Eagles AND the Fremantle Dockers.  Everyone thinks you have to like one or the other but I don't care.  I like Star Wars and Star Trek.  Marvel and DC.

I admit, calling soccer football probably makes a bit more sense, but gridiron football is the better football! No 0-0 ties here, and anybody who fakes an injury gets laughed out of the stadium! :D

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