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Is 3 threat too high for improved Parry and Reflect?

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I was wondering how others feel about the threat cost for improved Parry and Imporoved Reflect.  With the low number of ways to improved your defense to help generate more threat when being attacked, to me it seems like the threat needed to use the improved abilities could be dropped to make them better talents.  I was thinking dropping them down to 2 threat versus 3 threat.  

I have only played 1 game with Jedis, so my experience is not vast on this. I have been playing the game overall for 5 years.  With my current group most have these techniques but rarely get to use them.

Thanks for any feedback or thoughts you have on this. 

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With a well developped Sense power and some defense it can work well.

 

Those are powerfull abilities. If you want your players to trigger them easely, go for it but I don't think it is a good idea.

 

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Dodge and Defensive Stance for Parry, Dodge and Side Step for Reflect.

Then of course, as the others mentioned, Sense.

I understand where you're coming from, but I think lowering the cost might result in it triggering too often. It would also supersede most ways of spending Threat, so that most Threat results boil down to: "the acting character takes 1 strain," "the acting character gets hit in the face with a lightsaber," or "the acting character gets hit in the face with a lightsaber and takes 1 strain."

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3 net Threat is statistically really unlikely (even with all the defense Talents etc), but Sense/Dodge/etc can give you a good chance of a Despair.  Also remember that an extra attack in this game is powerful which is why it's hard to do.

Also, Peerless Interception, the Jedi Signature Ability from the Clone Wars books, allows the use of Improved Reflect/Parry without spending any Threat or Despair once per round in the Effortless Counter Upgrade.

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9 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Sense defense double upgrade, 4 defense and dodge (scar talent makes it available to all) and your looking at 2 red and 4 black at a minimum for short range, 2 red a purple and 4 black for brawl/melee/lightsaber.

Ataru could give you 2 more dodge

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13 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Ataru could give you 2 more dodge

The point of my post, which I admittedly did not state so it's on me, is what any force sensitive character could get, i.e. it does not require a specific specialization.

 

Defense 4 is reasonably easy to get via armor inserts and a portable plasma shield. Any force sensitive can take the sense power, anyone can get a scar talent (they just need to get critted  appropriately)

 

While what comes next is completely irrelevant to the point my previously poorly communicated message, it ses relevant to your reply.

1 strain (for dodge) seems worthwhile to me, but more than that doesn't, because you're still going to need to pay the 3 strain for parry or reflect. 

1 strain to double your chances of a despair, or (admittedly i haven't calculated these odds but it feels right) add a purple when you already have 2 red, seems like a good return on the strain investment,

The reason I prefer dodge to sidestep and defensive stance l is it doesn't cost a maneuver, and action economy is important... I wouldn't use dodge for every attack because of the strain cost but the occasional use to tip the odds slightly for a tougher opponent or under tactically advantageous circumstances  (e.g. when you'd realy like to reflect a blaster bolt from one attacker into another that hasn't acted yet this round so maybe they won't get a turn to inflict damage on you)

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1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

The point of my post, which I admittedly did not state so it's on me, is what any force sensitive character could get, i.e. it does not require a specific specialization.

 

Defense 4 is reasonably easy to get via armor inserts and a portable plasma shield. Any force sensitive can take the sense power, anyone can get a scar talent (they just need to get critted  appropriately)

 

While what comes next is completely irrelevant to the point my previously poorly communicated message, it ses relevant to your reply.

1 strain (for dodge) seems worthwhile to me, but more than that doesn't, because you're still going to need to pay the 3 strain for parry or reflect. 

1 strain to double your chances of a despair, or (admittedly i haven't calculated these odds but it feels right) add a purple when you already have 2 red, seems like a good return on the strain investment,

The reason I prefer dodge to sidestep and defensive stance l is it doesn't cost a maneuver, and action economy is important... I wouldn't use dodge for every attack because of the strain cost but the occasional use to tip the odds slightly for a tougher opponent or under tactically advantageous circumstances  (e.g. when you'd realy like to reflect a blaster bolt from one attacker into another that hasn't acted yet this round so maybe they won't get a turn to inflict damage on you)

While I agree on average the strain for dodge is not worth it. It can be if used judiciously to  get despairs and threats for a hit. Like using it on a lesser rival to get a blaster hit on a nemesis. Since it does not take an action.

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1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

While I agree on average the strain for dodge is not worth it. It can be if used judiciously to  get despairs and threats for a hit. Like using it on a lesser rival to get a blaster hit on a nemesis. Since it does not take an action.

I think that falls under the category of tactically advantageous circumstances, so we agree.

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In your games how many of your characters have 4 defense?

In my game I have 4 player and most have only have 1 or 2 defense dice to their melee or Ranges Combat. I would assume most characters are not searching the galaxy for these items to improve their defense, they are using standard unmodified armor.   

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, damnkid3 said:

In your games how many of your characters have 4 defense?

In my game I have 4 player and most have only have 1 or 2 defense dice to their melee or Ranges Combat. I would assume most characters are not searching the galaxy for these items to improve their defense, they are using standard unmodified armor.   

He's a power gamer and encourages his players to do likewise. He also gave us 25k starting credits and 1,000 starting XP.

I however didn't go full-on defense, I focused more on durability and offense (though not crazily so) and stacked bonuses against droids (Design Flaw, ...The Harder They Fall) since we're in a Clone Wars game.

Edited by P-47 Thunderbolt

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Posted (edited)

Standard armor can give you 1/1 defense, with armor talents that can quickly go into 2/2, not to mention that even a single attachment to a lightsaber can give you +2 melee defense, and a single piece of gear - the shield gauntlet - can give you +2 ranged defense. And then there's a couple of talents that give you defense, either conditional or just a permanent +1.

Characters really don't need to be searching all that hard for ways to raise their defenses.

Edited by Stan Fresh

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

He's a power gamer and encourages his players to do likewise. He also gave us 25k starting credits and 1,000 starting XP.

I however didn't go full-on defense, I focused more on durability and offense (though not crazily so) and stacked bonuses against droids (Design Flaw, ...The Harder They Fall) since we're in a Clone Wars game.

I encourage powergaming and discourage munchkinism.  Munchkinism is rules lawyering to try to bypass RAW or RAI, especially  when suggesting houserules to help you do that.  I actually  don't have any problem with house rules as long as they don't unfairly benefit one player over the rest of the group or unbalance the game, and ffg starwars is actually fairly forgiving of house rules.  If actualling you're following RAW/RAI you're almost certainly good at my table.  There are a few pieces of RAW gear which I think are broken and disallow.... the flickerphase blade attachment, ghost fire crystal, and c-roc gonzati... are all I can think of at the moment.  I don't have a problem with gear replicating a talent, I do have a problem with that cancels another player's talents.  6 or few soak without cortosis is perfectly acceptable to me,, a Mandalorian character who'd shtick is their armor is welcome to 6 or less soak with cortosis, or 8 or MAYBE 9 soak without cortosis.  But a player who wants 8+ soak with cortosis is going to get a **** no from me, especially if they want a lightsaber too.  The armorer talent where you commit force dice and pay strain in exchange for temporary cortosis quality is good in my book, because of the at the time cost.

It was normal starting xp plus 900 earned xp.  Jedi get 18K credits, and an ilum crystal and a jedi artisan who can add 2 hp to 2 pieces of gear, everyone else gets 25K credits.  The game has progressed since then so recent players get 950 earned xp, which puts them a little behind, the PCs who started the game and are still here.

The game us player centric and I want my players to feel like their characters are big **** heroes.  Jedi Characters with this level of xp feel like protagonists movie knights... they still have to make trade offs and have a lot of room to grow.  Since no character can do everything awesomely, making sure everyone still gets a chance to shine is easy.  Normal xp award is 5 xp per week if you make at least 1 if post that week, sometimes like today I was generous and give a little extra (10 today, but special circumstances and may the 4th be with you).   I think it's working well and have had zero game balance issues.  If I'm unsure of the rules I generally choose to err in favor of the players.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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