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dropkickweasel

Ancient Stone, Double or Nothing and Crack the Case

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Hi, 

Sorry if this has been asked and answered before, I did a search and found some of what I was looking for (I think), but was still unsure.  

 

I have Mandy Thompson at the Miskatonic University in The Midnight Masks Scenario.  

She has taken Rogue events and skills.  

Miskatonic University has a shroud value of 4. 

It also has the Obscuring Fog treachery card attached increasing it by 2.  

I investigate using Ancient Stone increasing it by a further 3.  

I also commit 1x Deduction, 1x Double or Nothing, and after a lot of set up 3x Three Aces to guarantee the test succeeds.  

 

Here's what I think I should resolve:  

I gather 4 clues.  

I record 18 secrets on the Ancient Stone. 

Is this correct?

 

If I then play Crack the Case having taken the last clue from the location, how many resources do I receive?  

Do I receive 18 resources?  Or do I receive 9 because the "difficulty of the test" was doubled, not the "shroud value"?  I think I 'only' receive 9.  Is this correct?

And if I happened to have a second copy of Crack the Case in hand, could I play it at the same time or am I limited to a single card interaction with "...after" effects?  I think that I can only play one, because after I play the first one, the last thing that happened was me playing a card, not me discovering the last clue on a location, so the timing is off for a second copy.  Is this correct? 

 

Thanks for you help :]

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DoN and Crack the Case don't interact; CtC looks for you discovering the last clue, which has nothing to do with a test succeeding (e.g. Roland can proc it after he uses his ability, you can proc it with a shovel, etc). However, you can respond to that timing point with two cards, if you've got them, I think. This game doesn't use a stack, so it's a bit murky, but you can basically respond to the timing point with both cards at once. I think. That's how I play it, anyway.

As for the rest of it, what a nightmare. My rule of thumb is, if the effect has the phrase, "if this test succeeds" or "is successful" or "on a successful test" or anything specifically pointing to the test succeeding, DoN will double it. Deduction will net you the extra clue, twice, the difficulty was doubled but the shroud wasn't, technically, so the stone would get charges for whichever one it cares about, which would also get recorded twice even though that doesn't do anything, and you get 9 bucks for the shroud, like you think. Also the stone gives you an extra clue when you identify it, which would be doubled: six clues total.

Personally, I'd never assemble the combo again 🙂 .

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Posted (edited)

Clues: Investigate (1) + Deduction (1) + Ancient Stone (1) = 3.  All depend upon success, so 6 total, if there are enough on there (it starts with 2 per investigator)

Crack the Case is based on the shroud value, not the difficulty of the test.  It also is not involved in the test so it does not double.  With Obscuring Fog and Ancient Stone, the shroud is 9, so you'd get 9 resources.

Ancient Stone is based on difficulty, so yes, 18 there.  Nice!!

Yes, you could play a second one.

Edited by CSerpent

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26 minutes ago, CSerpent said:

Crack the Case is based on the shroud value, not the difficulty of the test.  It also is not involved in the test so it does not double.  With Obscuring Fog and Ancient Stone, the shroud is 9, so you'd get 9 resources.

Isn't Obscuring fog discarded prior the playing of CtC? And I think the shroud would only be 4 for CtC, the test is over when you play it...

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Thanks for all the input so far.  

I had forgotten that Ancient Stone also allows me to grab an extra clue, so 6 clues total (if they're there) makes sense.  

The general consensus seems to be that for the first part of the question, 6 clues would be recovered and a ridiculous 18 secrets would be allocated to Ancient Stone (after recording it an unnecessary second time in the log).  That fits in with how I was interpreting the cards.  

 

Jurcccy, you raise an interesting question...  

I have just done a bit of extra reading of the cards, of the rules reference, of skill test timings and player windows and have to conclude that you are correct.  The wording on Crack the Case simply says "that location's shroud value", irrespective of what it may have been bumped to for the actual investigate test itself.  

 

Thanks for all the help, though I'm not sure when this particular scenario will come up for me again, it certainly helps to get a better understanding of the cards mechanics now that I'll be taking Mandy through a whole campaign after testing her out in the Night of the Zealot.  

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Crack the Case + Obscuring Fog is an interesting one.  I had always just assumed you would get 2 extra resources because the shroud was increased, but now I'm not sure.  A similar question arises when using Flashlight as well.  When exactly does the shroud value return to normal, before or after the timing window during which Crack the Case is played?

Are these 2 separate timing points?  And if so, do they always occur in a particular order?

  • After the last clue is discovered at a location
  • After a location is successfully investigated

Logically, I would think that you have to discover the clues (during ST.7 - apply skill test results) before the investigate action is considered finished.  And therefore Crack the Case would pay out based on the modified shroud value since effects from Flashlight and Obscuring Fog would not end until after ST.7 is finished.

Edit: Of course, I also just realized now that the skill test is determined to be successful or failed during ST.6.  So, is the location actually considered to be 'successfully investigated' during ST.6 (Determine success/failure)?  Or not until ST.8 (Skill test ends)?  Is it possible that Obscuring Fog goes away during ST.6, but an ongoing shroud reduction like Flashlight persists until ST.8?  Still unclear to me.

 

Edited by Faranim

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Faranim,  

I went through a similar thought process initially.  I agree that the last clue being discovered and the location being successfully discovered would both occur in ST.7 therefore I would be able to apply them in "the order of my choice" as per the rules reference.  

I then discounted this as there is no player window during ST.7 in which I could play Crack the Case, I would have to wait until until after ST.8 to play the card.  Have I misunderstood this and I can actually play a fast event with "after the last clue is discovered at a location" during ST.7 when the last clue is discovered?  

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, dropkickweasel said:

Faranim,  

I went through a similar thought process initially.  I agree that the last clue being discovered and the location being successfully discovered would both occur in ST.7 therefore I would be able to apply them in "the order of my choice" as per the rules reference.  

I then discounted this as there is no player window during ST.7 in which I could play Crack the Case, I would have to wait until until after ST.8 to play the card.  Have I misunderstood this and I can actually play a fast event with "after the last clue is discovered at a location" during ST.7 when the last clue is discovered?  

 A Fast event does not require a player window.  It is played whenever it says it can be.

I think all three are resolved in ST.7.  Discarding Obscuring Fog is a result of the skill test.

Edited by CSerpent

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CSerpent,  

That's good to know, thanks!  

I assumed that any event with the keyword "fast" could only be activated during the [squiggly sideways lightning symbol] player windows.  I was interpreting "after the last clue is discovered at a location" as "at the next available player window following the discovery of the last clue at a location".  Happy to know that I was wrong and I could cash in Crack the Case for additional resources.  

What a helpful forum this is :]

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  From the FAQ:

Quote

(1.7) Skill Test Results and Advanced Timing

During Step 7 of Skill Test Timing (“Apply skill test results”), all of the effects of the successful skill test are determined and resolved, one at a time. This includes the effects of the test itself (such as the clue discovered while investigating, or the damage dealt during an attack), as well as any “If this test is successful…” effects from card abilities or skill cards committed to the test.

[Reaction] or Forced abilities with a triggering condition dependent upon the skill test being successful or unsuccessful (such as “After you successfully investigate,” or “After you fail a skill test by 2 or more”) do not trigger at this time. These abilities are triggered during Step 6, “Determine success/failure of skill test.”

Obscuring Fog triggers and is discarded during Step 6; Crack the Case would be played during Step 7 after the last clue is discovered. It's honestly pretty unintuitive.

Flashlight creates a lasting effect for the investigation which means, I think, that the −2 shroud expires at Step 8. So the shroud reduction would be active when Crack the Case is played.

 

There's one other thing.

From the Rules Reference under Automatic Failure/Success:

Quote

If a skill test automatically succeeds, the total difficulty of that test is considered 0.

So if we use Three Aces to pass an Ancient Stone test, I believe we have to record a (0) in our campaign log.

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Posted (edited)

So the takeaway here? Do not use DoN with 3 Aces for a skill test for the Stone! (Or 3 Aces for anything that you want a higher than 0 outcome for). 
I could be wrong, but my understanding is that Obscuring Fog is removed after a successful test, but before it’s resolution, although the rules seem a little murky with resolving.  If the last clue is removed in another way, like with Intel Report, Evidence, Eavesdropping etc.  the shroud is not impacted because there was no successful test, so you would get the extra resources. 
With the way CtC is worded, you should be able to play 2 of them if you have them, but it does have to be immediately after the last clue is discovered, before anything else happens. If, for example, another investigator picked up the last clue as his/her second action,CtC needs to be played before their 3rd action.  Or if you played it, draw a card and get the second one, you couldn’t play the second one right away. 

Edited by Mimi61

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34 minutes ago, Mimi61 said:

(Or 3 Aces for anything that you want a higher than 0 outcome for). 

Note that Three Aces (and auto-success in general) changes the difficulty only. Your skill value is unaffected. You'll still trigger any "succeed by X" effects using Three Aces. This can be quite ludicrous if you're Mandy using Guiding Stones.

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