Jump to content
Blail Blerg

an actual thread about next points update

Recommended Posts

So, what do you think is the current meta now, and what do you think will be adjusted next update? 

 

Also would be fun to identify what the underperforming ships/pilots are. 

 

And ships needing nerf/adjustment. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Disclaimers: We are only about 3/6 months into the balance cycle. I don't get an extraordinary amount of testing, but medium amount. I do try a lot of different variations though, and I try to overcome all of my play tendencies although I cannot fully simulate wholly different mindsets. 

The age of the meta: The current cycle of the meta is mid-life (and of course half way thru the current cycle). In a non-cyclical way: 2.0 is now at a mid-age that resembles 1.0. A high number of very good generics are just plain good value, basically the BBBBZ or the 4Y-TLT of 1.0. The best thing seem to be low-init-bulk-run-to-time or 60-75% good generics + 1 ace. We are approaching "best possible" balance, but we are doing it in a trial-error haphazard method. Its plain to see that sometimes FFG balance team has overlooked (or not looked ) certain things or over tweaks (passes over the regression line to the other direction.)

Good:
that some bulk generic lists, with simple blocking are Tier1 lists. This means the core of the game and the balance is good. There's some unusual lists that are also pretty good. Overall, of course, balance is much closer to highest diversity than any other time in history. We can complain, but do note that we're really in a good place, and its very accommodating of many different people's playstyles. small bases vs medium and large is a big factor for generics/blocking.
Most of the time, 2 ship combo-wombos are not Tier1 - now, you may argue that's a bias, but hear me out: these lists have a history of simplifying the game in flying and to stats that is not good for the game nor for the use of flying skill. 1.0 was rife was this, and 2.0 seems much better without it. Also, with 2 ship combos it can be sadly trivially easy at times to juke an entire half a list in the total wrong direction, while putting withering fire in with nearly no consequences. Hence why Boba Fenn is very irritating to play against, even if in Extended it is manageable due to more Init6s. 

Bad:
Many generics have no real good reason for existing. Some generics are just flat out best/better. Too much of the generics or generics+ace joust can make this game pretty boring. There aren't enough ship abilities/upgrades that differentiate different choices of generics. Dial creep also largely makes MOST same size base generics moot difference. 
A lot of named pilots are horribly overcosted. Now that FFG has chosen audacious balance (of the generics), its time to complete the circle with the named pilots next, possibly over 2 iterations. 

A new trait has become a factor to track: extra arcs. These operate almost like 1.0-turrets. Sometimes they are very oppressive, and sometimes, they really aren't. Some ships have a certain flight pattern that exacerbates the issue to nigh-unbeatable efficiency (eg. extremely slow cagey flying near the edge/corners, never really leaving it, causing a huge denial of space with extra arcs). 
Extra arcs seem to need to be costed higher based on sheer efficiency, but on a case-by-case basis. Adding on an extra arc via upgrades sometimes is not overpowered: ex. adding mag pulse to falcon and putting the arcs sideways: Ok value. Adding dorsals to Scurrgs: ok value, not game busting. Tie SFs? Res Awings? - nearly busted. Having the bowtie arc'ed large base turret Ships so far? - no big deal. Their cost prevents them currently from being busted. 

Certain upgrades should also be adjusted to provide more variation in ship choices also. 

 

What's likely too good/undercosted:
Slave 1 title (easily up to 5, and probably based on Init)
Boba pilot possibly by 1-2 (but not sure, as its already very expensive. The problem is nullifying 2+1 attack dice attacks at R1 nearly completely)
Vultures maybe (up to 20? struts age old question, 0 or 1?), the special ability pilots seem to be horribly overcosted. 
Resistance Awings - are probably a hair too good, up 1-2 for some. 
Arc-170s - unfortunately, flown right and boringly, these are exceedingly high value. I would prefer configurations that encourage diversity in flight patterns. 
Obiwan - up 1. 
Overall, this is really good. Only Slave1 needs more than a 2 point adjustment, and A2wings in some cases need 2 which is a lot for their small point number.

What's likely rather good/but I don't feel warrants a nerf:
Tie FOs - at 26 they'd once again be bad. 
Tie SFs - (I don't have enough data)
Hyenas - (I don't have enough data)??
Z-95 - I like these right where they are. Good and fun. I'd drop missiles down or make them discounted perhaps?? (Haven't tried missile spam) 
Sabers at 36. whoo neat. 
Ric at 42. 
5thbrother at 42. 
 

Pilots that should be adjusted (first choice written on left of slash): 
(Note: I haven't played everything, so I omit a lot because I have no table exp)
(You can generally tell some pilots are way overcosted if their generic was aggressively adjusted and the named were not) 
(In some cases, this assumes no super-power-level special weapons)
(Yet another caveat: I haven't debated about these in Epic, so feel free to bring up that something is too powerful there) 

Ibtisam - the randomness of the ability reduces the chances its useful to proc, this is basically a non-spammable I3 with a 0-value ability. 46->45/44
Bwings - These are a tiny bit better than Xs, suspect ok as 5B... I2 41->40??, I3 42->41??. Stab Foils 1pt for I2 and I3. 
Xwings - (Not sure but these don't seem to be rocking the world, are these actually ok at 38 and 39? probably not)
Es - I still think these are probably ok at 50->49/48, yes it makes some alpha strike lists rather good.
Rogue 53->52
Gavin 61->56/55.
Corran 66->64
Dash - probably down a bit. 
Jan 42->41
The HWKS likely need to come down a bit. 
K-2S0 - 46->45? (haven't tried, but generally calculate is not as strong as focus)
Outer Rim Smuggler Falcon 67->66? If so, Chewie down 1? Lando down 1? 
Leia - 79-78/77 Rather confident
Han - 80->78?? (Not confident)
Tala - 24->23. The Black Sun I3 is 24. This should be a no brainer at I2. 

I3 TieF - 25->24
Night Beast 25->24
Valen Rudor 27->26
Baron v1 - 30->28/29. This is basically a I3 FO with much better linked, but suffers mobility due to blues limiting. 
7thsis - 43-41. 5thbro is better at 42.
Lt Sai - 47-46
Storm I3 adv - 39->37/38
Delta I1 - 67->66
Onyx I4 - 74->72
Vessery and Ryad - not tested, down 2 points
Turr - 42->39/38. Cmon. This is a saber with a good ability. but still a saber. 
Redline - 52->50
Patrol Leader -> 67->66. (I think this should be 65, but worried about making them too good) 
All named Decimators - down 2. 

Dalan Oberos Starviper - Actually very good and fun, but could be incentivized for more play. 54->53? 
Guri - 64->63/62?
Kimogila - 41->40 (Note I have no table exp with 5 of these, or multiple)
It feels like some of the Starvipers could go down, but I don't have enough table exp from different angles to judge that. 
HoundsTooths - Trandoshan 52->50, Most others could down 1 or 2? 

MG star fortress not good at its cost now, but I understand it could be very good if any cheaper. Some upgrades could be cheaper. 52->51/50?
Rey and Han down 1. 70->69, 65->64
Poe 68->66

I3 tie FO - 28-27
I1 Silencer - I think this could go down 51->50, but I hate this ship at I1 and I don't fly it well enough to test fairly. 
Rush - 57->56
Upsilons - 58->56. This was a good ship at 56 that required good flying. Thanisson 59->58. Stridan 61->60. Suspect Cardinal 62->61. Tavson 64->63. Dormitz... Fix via errata. 

Oddball arc - 51-50? Haven't tried it. I suspect this is just as good Wolffe due to I5 but basically no ability. 
Anakin Ywing - This one is horribly overcosted. AnakinY is NOT worth 2 generic Ys 30x2. 60->50/55/48. Don't really know what's fair, but somewhere between 5 and 10 points. 
Oddball Y - Theres really no point in playing this. 43->42. I have tried numerous ordnance lists. Nope. 
Jedi Knight - I'm still not impressed from playing against these. 37->36. Are they really dominant in 5ship? 
Barriss - 38->37. GO BARRISS.
Naboo N1 - Does anyone know if these can go down 33->32? I haven't tried spam. 
Dinee - Haven't tried, but don't want to at that cost. 38->35/36. The N1 named pilots are generally horribly out of line. 
Naboo Handmaiden - again, these are just sooooooo expensive. 42->39. I suspect they're closer to 37/38. 
Padme - Wow. She doesn't do any damage due to lack of offensive mods, even with Juke or torpedoes. 45->40. Ric is generally better. 
That places the whole N1 stat line much more linearly, with a bump for Handmaidens just in case. 32,35,39Handm, 40Padme, 41,42. 
Swoop 31-30? 
Oddball Torrent - 34->33. Again, no amount of ordnance saves this. 

Stalgasin - 34->32 (or fix via errata, such as fully execute, and some other tractor fix)
Petranaki - 38->36
HaorChall - drop: only up 1 from base vulture. If base vultures are 20, then these stay 21. 
Sep I3 - stay at 2 above base vulture. 
Precise Hunter - only 1 from Sep I3, most likely remains at 23. 
DFS-081 (the not popular one) - 26->24

Ion Missiles - 4->3?. Dangerous, but not good for spam cuz you need TL but want F. 
Freelance Slicer 3->2
ISB Slicer - 3->2
Novice Technician 4->3
Tactical Officer 6->4/3.  Want to say 3, but I suspect that muddles some balance. 
Cluster Mines 8->6
Ablative Plating 6->2
Skilled Bombardier 2->1??
Paige Tico 7->6
Rose Tico 9-7?? I don't like choosing Rose, but I haven't seen if this is very strong or not.
SF Gunner - by initiative. for I1-3, 10->9pts. At 8 points, it becomes a 40 ship strictly better than Xwing while less mobile. We don't need that. 
Ion Torpedoes - 6->5. Again, you need TL and not F.

 

 

Edited by Blail Blerg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, we're probably not even half way yet.

//

However... first thoughts:

Nerfs:

  • The standard Boba build needs to take a hit.  Slave 1 in particular seems egregiously priced at 1 point, but whatever works is fine with me.
  • Vultures.  I've got a few thoughts.
    • I'm a fan of at least minor Vulture/Hyena nerf by means of 0-point struts and an increase of the base cost of Vultures and Hyenas.
      • I mostly don't like free upgrades from a philosophical standpoint, but I do here, since I think it'd remove any possible confusion on who has struts, and allow the total package to be more fairly priced.  Vultures operate on such razor thin marginal point values that slight tweaks are hard, but can be justified by including the power of struts.
      • That presumes that Struts are something we want to keep in the game, rather than price out of it like Luke Skywalker Gunner.  There's a case to be made that 95% ignoring rocks and debris is an effect that that should be kept more rare and expensive.  There's a lot of power in the infinite-stall, as well.
        • Also, it isn't nearly as iconic as X-Wing S-Foils.  While Vultures do start off walking on some ships in the movies, they don't really hop on and off obstacles in the middle of dogfights.
    • Maybe Trade Federation Droids and some of the other most common ones go up by more than the cost of reducing Struts to 0 points.
    • Maybe some of the less-played Limited ones don't go up.  The Haor Chall and Baktoid Prototypes and Precise Hunters and such.  They all pay a fairly high price for abilities... that no one ever seems to use.  I'd love to see that gap go down.  They still probably won't see much play, but they feel overpriced to me.
    • Related: Buzz Droids should go up.  Everyone freaked out over Tragedy Stimulator, but then they printed these, and then they buffed them.  They fire off in the Engagement Phase when you've got perfect information and can be highly confident they won't be wasted, unlike bombs that can easily miss or be planned against.  They stick around essentially forever, and don't even die when a ship they're attached to dies.  That's kinda bull****.  They also don't force you to give up your shot, so whatever they do is in addition to an attack--most missiles don't let you double-attack.
  • There are too many unknowns for the over-performing stuff which didn't make the trek to Hyperspace.  Do 7B Jedi and Inquisitors and Soontir need another nerf?  Who knows.

Buffs:

  • Most underperforming stuff... I don't really think needs buffs.
    • I think stuff like Y-Wings are fair, but mostly folks don't want to fly them.  I don't believe it's a good idea to buff fair stuff that folks just aren't interested in playing to the point where they're underpriced for what they do.
  • I'd kind of like to see non-Ensnare Nantex come down.  Ensnare versions are overpriced, but correctly so, since Ensnare is utter bull****.  However, without Ensnare, they seem... kinda fair and pretty interesting.  I'd love to see a few more points shifted to Ensnare, the Nantex come down slightly, and maybe Gravetic Deflection come down a point.
  • Selfishly, Joy Reckoff needs a buff.  I think she's less bad than she seems: she's basically a Skull which can take two talents, so long as one of them is Outmaneuver.  That's not terrible in a vacuum.  However, it's terrible for a whopping 5 extra points.  I'd make her Skull + 1. Other Fang Fighters are seem fine to me.  Maybe they got over-buffed, but I don't feel a burning need to claw that back.
  • Lok Revenant can probably come down a bit.  The nerfs to Veteran Turret Gunner have been sufficient, and 43-ish points seems in line with ARCs and G1A and Kimogila.  They're still better priced than they were at release, but Scum seems to be the faction of the over-reaction price.
  • G1A other than 4-LOM are kind of the only other underperforming ship which I think needs something extra, but there's kind of nothing to do with it.  I wish Zuckuss and Gand Findsmen had the Force, to justify a higher price.  Too late for that now.
  • Maybe an E-Wing buff.  The ship I compare them most to is the TIE Silencer, due to the same statline.  However, Silencer at 51 for the low generic... actually feels right to me.  I'd fly 4 if I could, but I think the Silencer doesn't need buffs at all.  E-Wing, however, feels a lot worse than a Silencer than 1 point worse.  The thing about an E-Wing is that, realistically speaking, it's a single-action ship, that gets one bonus lock to start the game.  The linked Lock is hard to use, due to the range restrictions and somewhat limited Blues.
    • I just had a thought: Maybe their ship ability shouldn't have been long range locks whenever you take the lock action.  Maybe it should have been "Setup: Acquire a Lock on an enemy ship, ignoring range restrictions."  It's less flexible on the approach since you can't shift around locks, but it's more flexible once the fight is entered.  It doesn't allow for easy double-locks from R3 to really ensure the Torpedo volley finds a target.  It allows an E-Wing to better leverage the linked Lock action, once the battle begins. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's probably not going to be a whole lot of changes - remember, most of this Hyperspace season has now been cancelled due to COVID-19, so FFG's not going to be getting a huge amount of data on over/under-performing ships.  We don't even know if or when the next wave will be released - it could be put on hold while the world recovers in the aftermath.  The economic effects of a global supply chain shutdown (at least, that's what it is in essence), are going to be far-reaching.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Buffs:

  • Most underperforming stuff... I don't really think needs buffs.
    • I think stuff like Y-Wings are fair, but mostly folks don't want to fly them.  I don't believe it's a good idea to buff fair stuff that folks just aren't interested in playing to the point where they're underpriced for what they do.

If there's one ship that's in a great spot, it's the Y-Wing and I do not wish to see it change at all. Any lower and it'll be adjusted upwards to the point I can no longer use it and have fun with my favorite ship, because people don't like fun things in this game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, KCDodger said:

If there's one ship that's in a great spot, it's the Y-Wing and I do not wish to see it change at all. Any lower and it'll be adjusted upwards to the point I can no longer use it and have fun with my favorite ship, because people don't like fun things in this game.

To be honest, you're one of the reasons I really think the Y-Wing, despite not being super popular, is in a fair place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

@theBitterFig You deserve a crisp high five. Everything you said is spot on.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Selfishly, Joy Reckoff needs a buff.  I think she's less bad than she seems: she's basically a Skull which can take two talents, so long as one of them is Outmaneuver.  That's not terrible in a vacuum.  However, it's terrible for a whopping 5 extra points.  I'd make her Skull + 1. Other Fang Fighters are seem fine to me.  Maybe they got over-buffed, but I don't feel a burning need to claw that back.

I've been harping on this one since the start. Paying 5 points more than a Skull at the same initiative just to have an ability you can't use is odd, so then you need to pay a minimum of 6 more points to use it twice. That makes her 2 points more than Old T which is absurd. Her ability is to be Wedge for two shots when Wedge costs 3 points less than her.

Edited by 5050Saint

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, KCDodger said:

Eeheeeheeheeee

Okay I'm actually really surprised and happy to hear that. ****, is my 5Y list that solid?

As much as anything, it's your enthusiasm for it.

I feel like I've been vindicated by the Ion Cannon Scyk lately.  I've liked them for a while, and they've started to catch on.  Sure, the absolute points went down, but it stayed the same relative to it's nearest comparisons: the Alpha TIE Interceptor, and the Planetary TIE Striker--all 31 points at Init 1.  Maybe it's confirmation bias, but it looks like the Ion Scyk gained more popularity than the others did.

Likewise, on paper, the Y-Wing has enough in common with something like a TIE/sf that it seems like it it probably isn't bad on paper.  But knowing that there's someone out there really cheerleading for plain Y-Wings is enough for me to start to think the on-paper comparisons are probably not that far off on table.  At least, enough to suspect it probably doesn't need major buffs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

As much as anything, it's your enthusiasm for it.

I feel like I've been vindicated by the Ion Cannon Scyk lately.  I've liked them for a while, and they've started to catch on.  Sure, the absolute points went down, but it stayed the same relative to it's nearest comparisons: the Alpha TIE Interceptor, and the Planetary TIE Striker--all 31 points at Init 1.  Maybe it's confirmation bias, but it looks like the Ion Scyk gained more popularity than the others did.

Likewise, on paper, the Y-Wing has enough in common with something like a TIE/sf that it seems like it it probably isn't bad on paper.  But knowing that there's someone out there really cheerleading for plain Y-Wings is enough for me to start to think the on-paper comparisons are probably not that far off on table.  At least, enough to suspect it probably doesn't need major buffs.

Look man I've always been rooting for Y-Wings. They're easily my favorite rebel craft to play and have always been my fighter of choice. I'll always like them. But even I know when they aren't viable - see: Their entire existence as Rebel craft in 1.0.

I can't ever get these named Y-Wing pilots to work. Something's really off about them, so many weirdly circumstantial abilities... When, for less I could get absolute tanks with bombs and ion cannons. It's just great. But, you're right about Ion Scyks. They're doing well and that's actually really cool.

Funny you bring up the TIE/SF, too. Personal favorite First Order craft, love flying those bad boys to death- largely for the same reasons I enjoy the Y-Wings. Or at least similar reasons. Coolest part about the SF, it's typically okay if somebody's on your tail. You're not rolling any less dice because of it. Unless you're up against Wedge but I haven't seen that guy in a minute.

The Y-Wing's just a solid fighter. Yeah, its guns are weak but they're not why you take it, y'know? It's a heavy weapons platform and it isn't afraid to show it. It ain't an ace, it ain't an arc dodger and it won't even try to be those things. But it sure is happy to bang on stuff until they pop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I feel like I've been vindicated by the Ion Cannon Scyk lately.  I've liked them for a while, and they've started to catch on.  Sure, the absolute points went down, but it stayed the same relative to it's nearest comparisons: the Alpha TIE Interceptor, and the Planetary TIE Striker--all 31 points at Init 1.  Maybe it's confirmation bias, but it looks like the Ion Scyk gained more popularity than the others did.

Despite being all in on Scyks, the ion Scyk hasn’t stuck with me. Tried them out and found them pretty lacking.

Autoblasters? Check! Mix of autoblasters and tractor beams? Double check!

The autoblasters are just so good at ace hunting. The crits don’t alway come, but your opponent can’t exactly make that gamble either.

I think the Scyk is priced where it needs to be, finally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Despite being all in on Scyks, the ion Scyk hasn’t stuck with me. Tried them out and found them pretty lacking.

Autoblasters? Check! Mix of autoblasters and tractor beams? Double check!

The autoblasters are just so good at ace hunting. The crits don’t alway come, but your opponent can’t exactly make that gamble either.

I think the Scyk is priced where it needs to be, finally.

Still, I feel like, back in December, I was probably their only fan.  And now?  I mean, it hasn't taken the world by storm, but it's got, I dunno, like five or six fans now. 😛

Autoblasters working out for you?  More power to you, that's great.  Fly what you like, what clicks, and that'll cover a solid distance.

//

I'll also add that I think 7 Autoblasters is almost surely way better than 6 Ion.  Where I'm inclined more towards Ion is when it's less than 2/3rds of a list, or less than 1/3rd of a list.  I think Ion is, in general, really solid and underrated.  However, like many things, should be taken in moderation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Still, I feel like, back in December, I was probably their only fan.  And now?  I mean, it hasn't taken the world by storm, but it's got, I dunno, like five or six fans now. 😛

I’ve been flying swarms of them since autoblasters hit the scene. The points drop just means my swarms increased in numbers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I'd kind of like to see non-Ensnare Nantex come down.  Ensnare versions are overpriced, but correctly so, since Ensnare is utter bull****.  However, without Ensnare, they seem... kinda fair and pretty interesting.  I'd love to see a few more points shifted to Ensnare, the Nantex come down slightly, and maybe Gravetic Deflection come down a point.

  I don't believe the problem with non-ensnare Nantex can really be fixed with points adjustments.  The fact is, most of the unique Nantex pilots are either useless or mostly useless in a straight Nantex swarm. Berwer Kret is only useful in a droid list, and Chertek and Sun Fac can really only be useful with a Sith Infiltrator..  and only at the cost of the infiltrator giving up it's attack.  I think at least one of the HMP droids had cannons, so it might also be able to use a tractor beam as well, but again your giving up an attack to do this which I don't think is really worth if your just getting the effects of Chertek's or Sun Fac's abilities in return..  also, your back to Nantex lists moving their opponents' minis around at that point.  So I guess what I'm saying is that I think we need to wait until the HMP is out before we can really determine what should be done with Nantex, and points changes should probably based on getting them to fit into lists with Infiltrators and HMP's, rather than just basing it on Nantex swarms or whatever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, KCDodger said:

Eeheeeheeheeee

Okay I'm actually really surprised and happy to hear that. ****, is my 5Y list that solid?

I have yet to try it, but I'm very warm to the idea. Tried some other bombing lists first. 

Still start with ICTs backward only and never turn? 

What's your opening look like? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Disclaimers: We are only about 3/6 months into the balance cycle. I don't get an extraordinary amount of testing, but medium amount. I do try a lot of different variations though, and I try to overcome all of my play tendencies although I cannot fully simulate wholly different mindsets. 

The age of the meta: The current cycle of the meta is mid-life (and of course half way thru the current cycle). In a non-cyclical way: 2.0 is now at a mid-age that resembles 1.0. A high number of very good generics are just plain good value, basically the BBBBZ or the 4Y-TLT of 1.0. The best thing seem to be low-init-bulk-run-to-time or 60-75% good generics + 1 ace. We are approaching "best possible" balance, but we are doing it in a trial-error haphazard method. Its plain to see that sometimes FFG balance team has overlooked (or not looked ) certain things or over tweaks (passes over the regression line to the other direction.)

Good:
that some bulk generic lists, with simple blocking are Tier1 lists. This means the core of the game and the balance is good. There's some unusual lists that are also pretty good. Overall, of course, balance is much closer to highest diversity than any other time in history. We can complain, but do note that we're really in a good place, and its very accommodating of many different people's playstyles. small bases vs medium and large is a big factor for generics/blocking.
Most of the time, 2 ship combo-wombos are not Tier1 - now, you may argue that's a bias, but hear me out: these lists have a history of simplifying the game in flying and to stats that is not good for the game nor for the use of flying skill. 1.0 was rife was this, and 2.0 seems much better without it. Also, with 2 ship combos it can be sadly trivially easy at times to juke an entire half a list in the total wrong direction, while putting withering fire in with nearly no consequences. Hence why Boba Fenn is very irritating to play against, even if in Extended it is manageable due to more Init6s. 

Bad:
Many generics have no real good reason for existing. Some generics are just flat out best/better. Too much of the generics or generics+ace joust can make this game pretty boring. There aren't enough ship abilities/upgrades that differentiate different choices of generics. Dial creep also largely makes MOST same size base generics moot difference. 
A lot of named pilots are horribly overcosted. Now that FFG has chosen audacious balance (of the generics), its time to complete the circle with the named pilots next, possibly over 2 iterations. 

A new trait has become a factor to track: extra arcs. These operate almost like 1.0-turrets. Sometimes they are very oppressive, and sometimes, they really aren't. Some ships have a certain flight pattern that exacerbates the issue to nigh-unbeatable efficiency (eg. extremely slow cagey flying near the edge/corners, never really leaving it, causing a huge denial of space with extra arcs). 
Extra arcs seem to need to be costed higher based on sheer efficiency, but on a case-by-case basis. Adding on an extra arc via upgrades sometimes is not overpowered: ex. adding mag pulse to falcon and putting the arcs sideways: Ok value. Adding dorsals to Scurrgs: ok value, not game busting. Tie SFs? Res Awings? - nearly busted. Having the bowtie arc'ed large base turret Ships so far? - no big deal. Their cost prevents them currently from being busted. 

Certain upgrades should also be adjusted to provide more variation in ship choices also. 

 

What's likely too good/undercosted:
Slave 1 title (easily up to 5, and probably based on Init)
Boba pilot possibly by 1-2 (but not sure, as its already very expensive. The problem is nullifying 2+1 attack dice attacks at R1 nearly completely)
Vultures maybe (up to 20? struts age old question, 0 or 1?), the special ability pilots seem to be horribly overcosted. 
Resistance Awings - are probably a hair too good, up 1-2 for some. 
Arc-170s - unfortunately, flown right and boringly, these are exceedingly high value. I would prefer configurations that encourage diversity in flight patterns. 
Obiwan - up 1. 
Overall, this is really good. Only Slave1 needs more than a 2 point adjustment, and A2wings in some cases need 2 which is a lot for their small point number.

What's likely rather good/but I don't feel warrants a nerf:
Tie FOs - at 26 they'd once again be bad. 
Tie SFs - (I don't have enough data)
Hyenas - (I don't have enough data)??
Z-95 - I like these right where they are. Good and fun. I'd drop missiles down or make them discounted perhaps?? (Haven't tried missile spam) 
Sabers at 36. whoo neat. 
Ric at 42. 
5thbrother at 42. 
 

Pilots that should be adjusted (first choice written on left of slash): 
(Note: I haven't played everything, so I omit a lot because I have no table exp)
(You can generally tell some pilots are way overcosted if their generic was aggressively adjusted and the named were not) 
(In some cases, this assumes no super-power-level special weapons)
(Yet another caveat: I haven't debated about these in Epic, so feel free to bring up that something is too powerful there) 

Ibtisam - the randomness of the ability reduces the chances its useful to proc, this is basically a non-spammable I3 with a 0-value ability. 46->45/44
Bwings - These are a tiny bit better than Xs, suspect ok as 5B... I2 41->40??, I3 42->41??. Stab Foils 1pt for I2 and I3. 
Xwings - (Not sure but these don't seem to be rocking the world, are these actually ok at 38 and 39? probably not)
Es - I still think these are probably ok at 50->49/48, yes it makes some alpha strike lists rather good.
Rogue 53->52
Gavin 61->56/55.
Corran 66->64
Dash - probably down a bit. 
Jan 42->41
The HWKS likely need to come down a bit. 
K-2S0 - 46->45? (haven't tried, but generally calculate is not as strong as focus)
Outer Rim Smuggler Falcon 67->66? If so, Chewie down 1? Lando down 1? 
Leia - 79-78/77 Rather confident
Han - 80->78?? (Not confident)
Tala - 24->23. The Black Sun I3 is 24. This should be a no brainer at I2. 

I3 TieF - 25->24
Night Beast 25->24
Valen Rudor 27->26
Baron v1 - 30->28/29. This is basically a I3 FO with much better linked, but suffers mobility due to blues limiting. 
7thsis - 43-41. 5thbro is better at 42.
Lt Sai - 47-46
Storm I3 adv - 39->37/38
Delta I1 - 67->66
Onyx I4 - 74->72
Vessery and Ryad - not tested, down 2 points
Turr - 42->39/38. Cmon. This is a saber with a good ability. but still a saber. 
Redline - 52->50
Patrol Leader -> 67->66. (I think this should be 65, but worried about making them too good) 
All named Decimators - down 2. 

Dalan Oberos Starviper - Actually very good and fun, but could be incentivized for more play. 54->53? 
Guri - 64->63/62?
Kimogila - 41->40 (Note I have no table exp with 5 of these, or multiple)
It feels like some of the Starvipers could go down, but I don't have enough table exp from different angles to judge that. 
HoundsTooths - Trandoshan 52->50, Most others could down 1 or 2? 

MG star fortress not good at its cost now, but I understand it could be very good if any cheaper. Some upgrades could be cheaper. 52->51/50?
Rey and Han down 1. 70->69, 65->64
Poe 68->66

I3 tie FO - 28-27
I1 Silencer - I think this could go down 51->50, but I hate this ship at I1 and I don't fly it well enough to test fairly. 
Rush - 57->56
Upsilons - 58->56. This was a good ship at 56 that required good flying. Thanisson 59->58. Stridan 61->60. Suspect Cardinal 62->61. Tavson 64->63. Dormitz... Fix via errata. 

Oddball arc - 51-50? Haven't tried it. I suspect this is just as good Wolffe due to I5 but basically no ability. 
Anakin Ywing - This one is horribly overcosted. AnakinY is NOT worth 2 generic Ys 30x2. 60->50/55/48. Don't really know what's fair, but somewhere between 5 and 10 points. 
Oddball Y - Theres really no point in playing this. 43->42. I have tried numerous ordnance lists. Nope. 
Jedi Knight - I'm still not impressed from playing against these. 37->36. Are they really dominant in 5ship? 
Barriss - 38->37. GO BARRISS.
Naboo N1 - Does anyone know if these can go down 33->32? I haven't tried spam. 
Dinee - Haven't tried, but don't want to at that cost. 38->35/36. The N1 named pilots are generally horribly out of line. 
Naboo Handmaiden - again, these are just sooooooo expensive. 42->39. I suspect they're closer to 37/38. 
Padme - Wow. She doesn't do any damage due to lack of offensive mods, even with Juke or torpedoes. 45->40. Ric is generally better. 
That places the whole N1 stat line much more linearly, with a bump for Handmaidens just in case. 32,35,39Handm, 40Padme, 41,42. 
Swoop 31-30? 
Oddball Torrent - 34->33. Again, no amount of ordnance saves this. 

Stalgasin - 34->32 (or fix via errata, such as fully execute, and some other tractor fix)
Petranaki - 38->36
HaorChall - drop: only up 1 from base vulture. If base vultures are 20, then these stay 21. 
Sep I3 - stay at 2 above base vulture. 
Precise Hunter - only 1 from Sep I3, most likely remains at 23. 
DFS-081 (the not popular one) - 26->24

Ion Missiles - 4->3?. Dangerous, but not good for spam cuz you need TL but want F. 
Freelance Slicer 3->2
ISB Slicer - 3->2
Novice Technician 4->3
Tactical Officer 6->4/3.  Want to say 3, but I suspect that muddles some balance. 
Cluster Mines 8->6
Ablative Plating 6->2
Skilled Bombardier 2->1??
Paige Tico 7->6
Rose Tico 9-7?? I don't like choosing Rose, but I haven't seen if this is very strong or not.
SF Gunner - by initiative. for I1-3, 10->9pts. At 8 points, it becomes a 40 ship strictly better than Xwing while less mobile. We don't need that. 
Ion Torpedoes - 6->5. Again, you need TL and not F.

Edited by Blail Blerg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Half baked idea that I'm sure people will be able to poke holes in in five seconds:

Max numbers per list (printed attack dice):

4x 2-die generic small ships

3x 3-die generic small ships

 

3x 2-die generic med ships

2x 3-die generic med ships

 

2x 2-die generic large ships

1x 3/4-die generic large ship (ie. effectively turning the generic deci into a unique) 

 

To encourage more variability in lists while giving the devs the ability to lower the price of generic ships that really need it without turning them into oppressive spam (J5k, Kimo, Falcon etc.) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

  I don't believe the problem with non-ensnare Nantex can really be fixed with points adjustments.  The fact is, most of the unique Nantex pilots are either useless or mostly useless in a straight Nantex swarm. Berwer Kret is only useful in a droid list, and Chertek and Sun Fac can really only be useful with a Sith Infiltrator..  and only at the cost of the infiltrator giving up it's attack.  I think at least one of the HMP droids had cannons, so it might also be able to use a tractor beam as well, but again your giving up an attack to do this which I don't think is really worth if your just getting the effects of Chertek's or Sun Fac's abilities in return..  also, your back to Nantex lists moving their opponents' minis around at that point.  So I guess what I'm saying is that I think we need to wait until the HMP is out before we can really determine what should be done with Nantex, and points changes should probably based on getting them to fit into lists with Infiltrators and HMP's, rather than just basing it on Nantex swarms or whatever.

I both agree and disagree.

There was a lot of really unfortunate design with the Nantex, where they're built around using Ensnare, but Ensnare is utter bull**** that shouldn't be in the game.  They're kinda either broken as **** or not that great.  But I think there's room within "not that great" for them to be better.

Berwer Kret, for example, is a somewhat-cheap pocket ace, with potential to add a "second strike" reload in the middle of the fight for your droids with him. However, if he was a dirt-cheap pocket ace instead of somewhat-cheap, or if he got to bring Gravitic Deflection for essentially his current cost, that'd be a step better.

Prices don't necessarily entirely "fix" the Nantex, but rendering them "less bad" is still a goal worth pursuing.  We've got a ship with a wide-open dial, access to a stress-free Boost or Roll, essentially no penalty to defense if it takes Gravitic Deflection, and a bullseye weapon that's not that hard to use.  If it's a little bit cheaper, I think that'd be enough of an improvement.  That doesn't coverup the problems in the fundamental design, but it'd be that much easier to put on the table.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I have yet to try it, but I'm very warm to the idea. Tried some other bombing lists first. 

Still start with ICTs backward only and never turn? 

What's your opening look like? 

Realtalk? Opening don't look like much, but you don't wanna' waste actions rotating. You could rotate forward and focus sure but you'd be spending 4 turns getting good shots where you could bolt forward'n spend two. It's hard to explain but my general turret philosophy is, "Only rotate if you're going to be safe and not have a shot this turn and know your foe's likelihood of being in your arc next."

WHICH IS USUALLY NOT THAT LIKELY at any given time! So simply put, you just don't bother rotating when focusing is almost _always_ better. Your foes aren't going to be attacking from the sides usually, and if they do it won't be for that long. As for that opening joust, yeah. You're going to take damage. But an aggressive enough opponenent is gonna' K-turn or a smarter one won't do that and will try to flank you. One way or another chances of ending up with them staring at your backside are pretty high. Even better, them being behind you? Even higher. So you fly those Y-Wings in a way that most of their Ion cannons will be on the same target..? Oh yeah. You're disabling them. But you don't care about the guns.

The primary isn't there to kill, it's to ward away.
The Ion isn't there to do anything but present a control threat and actually get it on a lucky focused roll.
The bombs are why you're here.

This list is amazingly good at funneling in foes to a bomb slot. You have to remember, too. You're gonna' take hits. Sometimes you'll bomb yourself. It's okay. This list doesn't play to time and isn't designed to. This list is designed to die. It's designed to take hits until it dies and you can NOT be afraid of losing ships because, inevitably, that is going to happen. You can expect to lose a majority of your ships against a really good opponent or half of them with anyone else.

All that matters is that you barf out enough bombs to deal damage. Those shields your enemy has are the ONLY thing saving them from the worst thing in the game to experience: Critical damage effects. The more bombs hit your foe the worse it is. You have a high chance of dealing double unavoidable damage or one damage with a critical effect. These can do anything. Blind them, make non turns damage them, screw up their targeting, reduce their firepower. You know what this list really hates? Aces. But it doesn't hate them because they're good against them.

They aren't.

Aces are typically low health. You strip those shields, that ace is as good as dead, because you can fly fast enough that they only have clear shots on your ***, and if you can make rotate work, then you can usually have an ion shot.

You can cough out ten bombs for no cost before you have to reload... and so the **** what if you gotta' reload? Oh no, a red action. What will I do? 1 forward straight because I don't give a s**t if I'm getting shot. I want, actively, my enemy to have a shot on me, because eight times out of ten it means I have one right back on him. I want him to be cocky and take that chance. I WANT my enemy to think I'm a nice, juicy target full of shields and hull. I'm not meant to live. They are. I can win that fight of attrition, and if I can ion their cocky little ace, they're one bomb away from having a HORRIBLE time VERY quickly.

It's an avenger list. It hates the meta and is willing to die to beat the snot out of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

  I don't believe the problem with non-ensnare Nantex can really be fixed with points adjustments.  The fact is, most of the unique Nantex pilots are either useless or mostly useless in a straight Nantex swarm. Berwer Kret is only useful in a droid list, and Chertek and Sun Fac can really only be useful with a Sith Infiltrator..  and only at the cost of the infiltrator giving up it's attack.  I think at least one of the HMP droids had cannons, so it might also be able to use a tractor beam as well, but again your giving up an attack to do this which I don't think is really worth if your just getting the effects of Chertek's or Sun Fac's abilities in return..  also, your back to Nantex lists moving their opponents' minis around at that point.  So I guess what I'm saying is that I think we need to wait until the HMP is out before we can really determine what should be done with Nantex, and points changes should probably based on getting them to fit into lists with Infiltrators and HMP's, rather than just basing it on Nantex swarms or whatever.

 

11 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I both agree and disagree.

There was a lot of really unfortunate design with the Nantex, where they're built around using Ensnare, but Ensnare is utter bull**** that shouldn't be in the game.  They're kinda either broken as **** or not that great.  But I think there's room within "not that great" for them to be better.

Berwer Kret, for example, is a somewhat-cheap pocket ace, with potential to add a "second strike" reload in the middle of the fight for your droids with him. However, if he was a dirt-cheap pocket ace instead of somewhat-cheap, or if he got to bring Gravitic Deflection for essentially his current cost, that'd be a step better.

Prices don't necessarily entirely "fix" the Nantex, but rendering them "less bad" is still a goal worth pursuing.  We've got a ship with a wide-open dial, access to a stress-free Boost or Roll, essentially no penalty to defense if it takes Gravitic Deflection, and a bullseye weapon that's not that hard to use.  If it's a little bit cheaper, I think that'd be enough of an improvement.  That doesn't coverup the problems in the fundamental design, but it'd be that much easier to put on the table.

What problem is there in the fundamental design of the generics? Other than cost? A few points on a gravitic deflection SHG or PA would make them mighty enticing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...