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ALiteralCommunist

Daisy and the Necronomicon

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Is it possible for Daisy to have three different Necronomicons in her deck? There's her weakness, the one from Dunwich, and the one revealed in the new Seeker deck. 

Do weaknesses and story assets count towards your limit on cards of one name? 

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So, it's not been made clear, but the stipulation "A player's investigator deck may not include more than 2 copies (by title) of any given player card." is probably not intended to apply to signature cards, since Sefina, Lola and potentially Mandy include three copies of their signature cards. You could argue that the "All other "Deckbuilding Requirements" listed on the back of a player's investigator card must be observed." part of the rules countermands this but really, they are simply in conflict, since the Golden Rule can't apply to resolve the contradiction (both rules have equal "priority").

Definitely worth asking for a rules clarification. The obvious route to resolving this conflict is to rule that the limit of 2 copies by title only refers to "standard" (i.e. non-signature, non-weakness, non-story) cards, but that isn't actually an explicit part of the rules thus far.

Given that the broad Arkham Files/Call of Cthulhu universe includes many different versions of the Necronomicon (indeed, the Call of Cthulhu LCG includes 10 different versions, each with different effects), it feels odd to be limited to 2 copies total, since each one is very much a different object even if ultimately derived from the same source text.

Edited by Allonym

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I would think it would include subtitle. Even if unique, thematically it does not make sense. Each translation would be a completely different physical object much like the KJV and the NIV or AMP version of the Bible are. At least I’ve never seen them bound in a single edition... And mechanically the cards do not even behave similarly. I see no harm in including as many translations of the Necronomicon as possible. Any librarian worth her salt would have them all for comparative studies.

Edited by Soakman

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1 hour ago, Soakman said:

I would think it would include subtitle. Even if unique, thematically it does not make sense. Each translation would be a completely different physical object much like the KJV and the NIV or AMP version of the Bible are. At least I’ve never seen them bound in a single edition... And mechanically the cards do not even behave similarly. I see no harm in including as many translations of the Necronomicon as possible. Any librarian worth her salt would have them all for comparative studies.

But this isn't the rules, at least for the moment.

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38 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

But this isn't the rules, at least for the moment.

Correct, but it's also NOT in the rules as far as I can tell.  The subtitle of a card may or may not be 'officially' part of the title.

In this case (as well as others potentially--what other cards do we have with subtitles besides story assets that are one-offs?), the cards in question are very much separate cards and objects. If you compare them to the dual-class cards, for instance, even though they are in separate classes they do not have subtitles so you would still only be able to have 2 copies of one version or the other (or the lvl 0). To me this implies one single item/weapon/etc being used differently rather than entirely separate items/weapons/etc. In other words, the faction color is about how something is used, whereas the subtitle represents a variation of a single object that is a completely separate object and could therefore have multiple versions of it in play.

Granted, this is my interpretation, but I don't see a case where it is obviously clear that subtitles do not count as part of the title of a card for purposes of deck building. By title, to me, would imply that the Necronomicons are not identical by title precisely because they have a subtitle.

EDIT: Eldan brought up a good point (though it's posted in the other thread) regarding the Archaic Glyphs/seeker sub-quest cards. And granted, I do think it was clarified that you can't have 2 of each version. I may be entirely wrong here, but even with the glyphs, I don't see why couldn't feasibly have glyphs with different things enscribed in them in the same deck. It does make some amount of sense, however, because you are specifically translating a set of glyphs or interpreting a set of specific dreams... It would be kind of silly if you translated a single diary and got 6 full diaries out of one. 

I don't try to use theme to justify rules often, but sometimes it helps when looking for rules as intended vs rules as written when there is no clear answer available. Someone should really just ask FFG, haha.

Edited by Soakman

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11 minutes ago, Soakman said:

Correct, but it's also NOT in the rules as far as I can tell.  The subtitle of a card may or may not be 'officially' part of the title.

At the back of the Rules Reference, the player card anatomy refers to “title” and “subtitle” as distinct parts of the card. The deckbuilding rules say you may not include more than two copies of a card by title.

I’d say it’s pretty clear at the moment, although I doubt this situation was considered when the Rules Reference was written. I can definitely see it being ruled that mandatory cards or story assets do not count towards the number of copies of a card (by title!) that you have in your deck.

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2 minutes ago, Assussanni said:

At the back of the Rules Reference, the player card anatomy refers to “title” and “subtitle” as distinct parts of the card. The deckbuilding rules say you may not include more than two copies of a card by title.

I’d say it’s pretty clear at the moment, although I doubt this situation was considered when the Rules Reference was written. I can definitely see it being ruled that mandatory cards or story assets do not count towards the number of copies of a card (by title!) that you have in your deck.

I guess there's only so much Necronomicon even Daisy can handle... Disappointing though. Maybe there is a permanent coming down the line that lets you include more... 🤔

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19 minutes ago, ALiteralCommunist said:

Archaic Glyphs, Strange Solutions, and Empower Self to name a few.

Dream Diary too. Shrewd Analysis gives you two random upgrades, but doesn’t exclude you from purchasing the third one separately, right? 

Edited by Mimi61

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2 minutes ago, Allonym said:

So far, I think we can pretty conclusively state that subtitles are not supposed to mean that the cards are considered to be different cards by title, as if they were, the Myriad keyword and indeed overall design of the Empower Self cards wouldn't function as intended.

I concede that generally speaking by title is regardless of subtitle then... but I think even if that is the case, Empower Self is an odd duck because it specifies a limit 1 on the full title inclusive of subtitle. But this is irrelevant because it also has Myriad.

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4 minutes ago, Mimi61 said:

Dream Diary too. Shrewd Analysis gives you two random upgrades, but doesn’t exclude you from purchasing the third one separately, right? 

I think that's pretty much what we're discussing. It seems like the subtitle doesn't matter, so you'd be limited to two regardless. 

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10 hours ago, Soakman said:

I guess there's only so much Necronomicon even Daisy can handle... Disappointing though. Maybe there is a permanent coming down the line that lets you include more... 🤔

I’ve submitted a rules question to Matt and Jeremy asking if this is intentional - both this specific question and whether cards which don’t count towards deck size [edit: as others have pointed out, this would exclude permanents. I should have said mandatory cards or campaign story cards] also don’t count against the max 2 copies by title per deck.

I’m not sure if the current situation means that I’m more or less likely to get a response if they are not in the office! I’m currently 1 from 2 on getting answers from the official rule question form.

Edited by Assussanni

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3 minutes ago, Assussanni said:

I’ve submitted a rules question to Matt and Jeremy asking if this is intentional - both this specific question and whether cards which don’t count towards deck size also don’t count against the max 2 copies by title per deck.

Permanents don't count toward deck size, but I'm guessing you can't take 3 Charisma, right?

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4 minutes ago, ALiteralCommunist said:

Permanents don't count toward deck size, but I'm guessing you can't take 3 Charisma, right?

No you can only have two of a permanent card. Deck size doesn’t change what is allowed in the deck (except with Mandy’s signature card). 

Edited by Mimi61

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I'm guessing the version of the Necronomicon in in Miskatonic Museum doesn't count since it's added to your deck rather than included as part of deck building?  Otherwise I've definitely been cheating.  This feels very thematically silly since they are literally different translations of the Necronomicon and therefore different physical books.  That said mechanically that makes sense since otherwise you'd be able to take all the different Strange Solutions for instance, which I'm fairly sure is not the intention.

I feel like they should differentiate between a weakness and an asset of the same name since they are different card types.  Though I don't think the rules support that right now.

Edited by phillos

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34 minutes ago, phillos said:

I'm guessing the version of the Necronomicon in in Miskatonic Museum doesn't count since it's added to your deck rather than included as part of deck building?  Otherwise I've definitely been cheating. 

How have you been cheating?  Even if you had both that's only 2 copies of Necronomicon, which would be legal.

I know the Necronomicon is kind of a special case, but let's face it - the deckbuilding requirements are kind of outside logic anyway.  There are only 2 Old Books of Lore in the world?  2 .45 Automatics?  Hey, I've lived here all my life but I don't know any Shortcuts because I used up the two my brain can store?

It's a mechanical limitation for play balance, and being limited to only two copies despite all the translations certainly doesn't make any less sense than a random Arkham Beat Cop happening to show up out of nowhere when you're in another dimension.

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12 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

How have you been cheating?  Even if you had both that's only 2 copies of Necronomicon, which would be legal.

I know the Necronomicon is kind of a special case, but let's face it - the deckbuilding requirements are kind of outside logic anyway.  There are only 2 Old Books of Lore in the world?  2 .45 Automatics?  Hey, I've lived here all my life but I don't know any Shortcuts because I used up the two my brain can store?

It's a mechanical limitation for play balance, and being limited to only two copies despite all the translations certainly doesn't make any less sense than a random Arkham Beat Cop happening to show up out of nowhere when you're in another dimension.

I mean I said as much myself so I understand.

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10 hours ago, ALiteralCommunist said:

Permanents don't count toward deck size, but I'm guessing you can't take 3 Charisma, right?

Good point. I sent the specific situation as well, so hopefully they’ll understand what I meant. I’ve edited my post to clarify.

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I think you can't include all 3 unless weaknesses isn't considered a player card which is unlikely. 

But as they always say, it is your game. Do what you like. It isn't particularly game breaking to have all 3 anyway.

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The rules for Permanent include: "A card with the permanent keyword still counts as being part of your deck and must therefore adhere to all other deckbuilding restrictions."

Edit: realized this needs context for "other".  The clause before this is "A card with the permanent keyword does not count towards your deck size."

Edited by CSerpent
other

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