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JediPartisan

The Problem With Rebels

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28 minutes ago, Katarn said:

I find myself getting tired of seeing the argument that rebels have a different play style and should use cover and play to objectives.

The Empire players can and will do exactly the same thing: Stormtroopers move as fast as rebel troopers and benefit just as much from cover. It's not like Imperial players aren't going to try to score objective points.

Before I bought the game I imagined that the rebels would be fast and stealthy (or cold and stoic) but hit and run tactics seem to be the preserve of characters and folk mounted on lizards. 

Then again, I also imagined the airspeeder would be overpowered in a skirmish game.  The foolishness of my younger days.

 

This^

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12 hours ago, jocke01 said:

The firepower in the game is increasing, but units defence and mobility stays the same.

Aka “how ffg sells new toys to consumers” - power creep. It’s the bane of 1.0 xwing, and it’s finally starting to show in Legion of late (maybe after the first rogue one wave?)

9 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

I have a hard time with the idea of changing armies in order to win more. Winning isn't everything: it's nothing.

I do think there's a lot of overly-specific faction identity for rebels. The developers basically make it so that the faction hinges on characters, which, is annoying.

But Legion in general is more about the figures than the rules though.

Agreed - the figures are the reason for Legion more than the game - it’s been almost a year since I’ve actually played the game. I’m looking forward to a clone wars era battle with my Seppie friend coming up, but yeah it’s much more about the painting and admiring the sculpts.

I do and I don’t mind about the Rebels being hero dependent. I really like some of the heroes we’ve gotten for them. I don’t think I’d be willing to play rebel in the “competitive” or open game world though. Much rather use them in casual games against the old stuff where there are no tauns, shores, etc. Even without the creeped units, my win rate is nonexistent with Rebels. And that’s ok — I’ll still give them a try now and then.

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3 hours ago, Katarn said:

I find myself getting tired of seeing the argument that rebels have a different play style and should use cover and play to objectives.

i get tired of it too, but if i play differently than that, i know i don't have a chance at winning unless I'm playing another rebel army. I either have to lure newbies into fire traps or play like every figure has roller skates in an ice skating rink, because i know my dice won't roll square. Everyone on this forum says "stop complaining about dice, they're all even". But i don't make saves and i don't roll hits with rebels. I do ok with all the other factions.

For me its a fact, so i play a faction based on its archtype and what type of characters i want to play, which is kind of what the designers said about the game from the beginning.

Rebels will have more balance i believe, just as all factions will get a somewhat sneaky unit. It will just take time. Rebels got Tauntauns and they will get Mandalorians, and the imperials will get infiltrating TIE pilots and the CIS will get scouting commando droids

It will all shake out in the end.

But i still want a mercenary/criminal faction

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I've just started playing Legion, so take this with a grain of salt.

A friend and I got a cheap OT Core Set, he got the Imperials and I got the Rebels. He got some SnowTroopers, and I get a box of Tauns and Leia. We've done some skirmishes with what we have (Leia, rebels x2, tauns, atrt VS Vader, storms, snows and bikes, most of the time) and it feels like he's allowed to make more mistakes than I am and still win the matches. We both have been playing Warhammer for a while, so our fails are not flagrant and we play tactically to objectives.

I really feel that Rebels are fun to play with his hit and run tactics (I loved Tauns, and I want Sabine so bad), but I also feel that naked Rebels could be cheaper (8-9 instead of 10 points maybe) or just make them faster than Storms.

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On 3/11/2020 at 5:04 AM, JediPartisan said:

Because of this lack of cohesion (pun intended) each unit has its own way of playing. Their isn’t a set, “you can do this for rebels” kind of playbook.

I think you answered your own question here accidentally. Rebels are made to NOT be pigeonholed into a single way of playing. Whatever army you get for imperials, it will in one way or another be pretty similar to any other imperial army. Rebels on the other hand work to where each unit is so different that they can all do different jobs of the battlefield. With the right units combined, it makes a good army. With the wrong units combined, its a terrible army. Imperials on the other hand can throw an army together and it will be at least "alright" every time. Rebels have their own flare and take a specific kind of play style and strategy that some people arent pulled towards. Some are just pulled too strongly by the dark side and join the Empire

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2 hours ago, bllaw said:

 Rebels are made to NOT be pigeonholed into a single way of playing... Rebels have their own flare and take a specific kind of play style and strategy that some people arent pulled towards. 

That is a little contradictory but I think I see what you mean about the rebels being more radically specialised than the Empire. It is a little counterintuitive in a galaxy of scout/snow/sand/shore/death troopers but they all share a general hardiness. Except the scouts.

The Alliance's main strength does appear to be their characters, which is a shame because I have little interest in using them, especially out of theme. 

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44 minutes ago, Katarn said:

That is a little contradictory but I think I see what you mean about the rebels being more radically specialised than the Empire. It is a little counterintuitive in a galaxy of scout/snow/sand/shore/death troopers but they all share a general hardiness. Except the scouts.

The Alliance's main strength does appear to be their characters, which is a shame because I have little interest in using them, especially out of theme. 

The problem is, even the stuff rebels are specialized to do, they don’t do it particularly well... and if you get shot off the table it doesn’t matter what you were good at. 

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21 minutes ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

The problem is, even the stuff rebels are specialized to do, they don’t do it particularly well... and if you get shot off the table it doesn’t matter what you were good at. 

Rebels do their job of objective control exceptionally well. I do agree that they get picked off the table way too fast so that's why rebels benefit from cover and LOS blocking terrain more than any other faction

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Posted (edited)

I play all 4 factions.  Rebels by far have my highest win percentage.  I have won tournaments with both rebs and Imps.  I haven tried droids or clones in a tournament setting yet.  I play my rebels very differently than most people though.  I play a very "in your face" style.  I played at top table at an RPQ with commander Luke, Sabine, triple sabs, 5 naked troopers and a land speeder with the 2 white gunner, 4 black gun.  I would just barrel straight at my opponent or the center objective.  Luke and Sabine made my opponent think twice about coming close, while the speeder killed all their back line troops (snipers mostly).  Once I was able to kill a couple of snipers (usually by turn 2-3) I would have a lot of activation control which made it very difficult to handle Luke and Sabine.  I also had a 9 point bid because I really liked breakthough, recover supplies, sabatoge evaps, limited viability, Mines,  Disarray, Advanced positions, and Long March.  So I made it very easy to ensure I could get something very favorable for my team.  I would destroy other reb teams, imp team would usually out damage me but I win on objectives.  Droids were hard with the suppression but my speeder rarely died and lasted much longer vs them.  Clones messed my speeder up but sabines mines were pretty crippling for them in term of getting objectives (didnt do much damage, but the suppression really slowed them up, and Luke owned clones (I had to be careful and unsure he could safely get engaged, otherwise I just sat near the main objective the clone player was trying to get (in safe position) ready to pounce when they got close.  (also slowed the clones up).  If OB charged me before I could charge him then I would simply use sabine and grapple him.

It is important that you have a way to deal with the current meta.  When I played a Krennic and shore gun line, I had comms jammer was within 1 of the mortar units which disrupted his activation control and allowed me to get early objectives.

Luke had mind trick and Sabine had E-grapple to deal with the taun tauns.  I also force pushed taun tauns into my mines (a lot).  Taun tauns are amazing if they can get orders on them early, but the comms jammer messed that up really bad too.

I have a friend that runs Jyn very effectively as well.  His team is also fairly fast and "in your face".  

Find what the other people usually run then learn how to beat it.  what do people run in your area that you have had a hard time dealing with?

Also, IMPORTANT....My most successful rebel teams I would lose with the first 5-6 times I would play them.  REMEMBER that.  If you have something you like keep it, just make small adjustments and it will become better and better the more you play it. 

Edited by weebaer

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40 minutes ago, DFocke said:

Would you mind sharing your list. I'm always on the lookout for new inspiration.

Luke Skywalker (Force Push, Jedi Mind Trick)
Sabine Wren (Electro Grappling Line, The Darksaber)
Rebel Troopers
Rebel Troopers
Rebel Troopers
Rebel Troopers
Rebel Troopers
Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (Proton Charge Saboteur)
Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (Proton Charge Saboteur)
Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (Proton Charge Saboteur)
X-34 Landspeeder (A-300 Rifle Gunner, Mark II Medium Blaster, Comms Jammer)
 

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4 minutes ago, weebaer said:

Luke Skywalker (Force Push, Jedi Mind Trick)
Sabine Wren (Electro Grappling Line, The Darksaber)
Rebel Troopers
Rebel Troopers
Rebel Troopers
Rebel Troopers
Rebel Troopers
Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (Proton Charge Saboteur)
Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (Proton Charge Saboteur)
Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (Proton Charge Saboteur)
X-34 Landspeeder (A-300 Rifle Gunner, Mark II Medium Blaster, Comms Jammer)
 

That looks like a fun list. What was your tactics vs imperial gunlines?

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Posted (edited)

I would first look at what side of the map would allow me the best approach to a middle objective, then make sure that side was on my right as the blue player since the blue player is on the right on the deployment cards.  If the map was more open, then I would try to force breakthrough (Long march if possible).  I would then look for a place Luke could ride the speeder to be relatively close to their deployment zone, but also safe.  I would use my sabs to mine up my deployment zone where it would be easiest for my opponent to score while keeping them safe.

If there was a lot of good cover in the middle then I would try to force recover supplies or Transmissions.  Limited visibility was so strong for me it was an auto delete for the opponent which played into my favor because I could force my opponent into other things that are also bad for them.  Sabine can threaten the middle objective very quickly with Luke.  Speeder would be placed last (if I didnt think it was a good idea to have Luke ride on it) and would flank one side limiting the amount of attacks it would take before it could actually start killing snipers and mortars.  I even occasionally rode luke toward the opponent to threaten one of the closer supplies or evaps near their army if I could get him to a good line of sight blocking terrain on turn 1.  This would throw of the opponent a lot, but I didnt do it often, only if the map made it a good idea.

I keep all of my rebs behind as much cover as possible.  I rarely attacked with them, lots of double moves, lots of dodges until later in the game when suppression became very important, more important then my guys living.  Luke and Sabine were used more for area denial and threats than actual damage.  This caused slower movement and greater caution.  If my opponent had a ton of guys moving toward the middle objective, then I would use Sabine's 1 pip, but only if I was able to confidently keep her alive.  Her 1 pip is very tempting to use, but it is never going to do as much damage as you hope, it more of a suppression bomb than a damage bomb.  If you jump out and use it and she dies, it wasn't worth it.  Sometimes the way the map was set up I would flank with sabine if i thought I could keep her safe and eliminate enough activations, but I would usually use her for objective capture.

If the shore/mortar gunline has IRG you can't play as aggressive with Luke.  You will have to use Luke and Sabine close together and make sure mind trick and grapple are used effectively to keep Luke from dying sooner than you want him to.  I did lose Luke in almost all of my games, just as long a he did enough work, I would win.  

 

Edited by weebaer

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I agree with weebaer. The game looks like a fighting game a'la 40k where you chase deadly synergies, but I feel it´s more about positioning.  There´s something of group think going on saying you need to "killém all asap or lose!". The result is gunlines facing each other when preserving your troops by denying the opponent shots and advancing through cover would better your chances of solving the objective.  

 

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20 hours ago, bllaw said:

I think you answered your own question here accidentally. Rebels are made to NOT be pigeonholed into a single way of playing. Whatever army you get for imperials, it will in one way or another be pretty similar to any other imperial army. Rebels on the other hand work to where each unit is so different that they can all do different jobs of the battlefield. With the right units combined, it makes a good army. With the wrong units combined, its a terrible army. Imperials on the other hand can throw an army together and it will be at least "alright" every time. Rebels have their own flare and take a specific kind of play style and strategy that some people arent pulled towards. Some are just pulled too strongly by the dark side and join the Empire

Sorry, but that is really bad logic. You’re saying the Rebels lack of cohesive theme/ability or play style as an army is their strength? That is some serious glass half full kinda thinking, but I don’t think it’s very tactically sound. Also despite the Imperials having a common cohesive thread, their units have varied purpose.  You might want to take a look at them again, before you pass judgment. If you’re thinking of the Shores/Mortar/Relay meta as an example of limited varied purpose (aside from a gun line), that was a loop hole that gave a lot of extra power, so it was overly exploited. If you take a look at each unit, the Imperials will still come out on top (over Rebels) in units with varied purposes. What’s more, even where the rebels may have units that can fill a roll, in general (not always), the Imperials do it better. Rebels will always suffer against an army that has that kind of advantage.
If you don’t agree, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

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2 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

Sorry, but that is really bad logic.

rude

2 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

You’re saying the Rebels lack of cohesive theme/ability or play style as an army is their strength? That is some serious glass half full kinda thinking, but I don’t think it’s very tactically sound.

That's exactly what I'm saying. They don't rely on one synergy that can be broken by killing one unit. Think about an imperial gunline with Veers throwing out aim tokens like candy. Kill him and the whole gunline slowly melts away. Rebels dont have that "weak link" in their armies.

5 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

Also despite the Imperials having a common cohesive thread, their units have varied purpose.  You might want to take a look at them again, before you pass judgment. If you’re thinking of the Shores/Mortar/Relay meta as an example of limited varied purpose (aside from a gun line), that was a loop hole that gave a lot of extra power, so it was overly exploited.

Imperials do have units that act differently but in a way, its all really the same. Imperials ALWAYS set up powerful gunlines behind cover. What viable units do otherwise? They're completely predictable. Not saying their gunline is bad, it's incredibly powerful. But predictable.

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12 minutes ago, bllaw said:

rude

That's exactly what I'm saying. They don't rely on one synergy that can be broken by killing one unit. Think about an imperial gunline with Veers throwing out aim tokens like candy. Kill him and the whole gunline slowly melts away. Rebels dont have that "weak link" in their armies.

Imperials do have units that act differently but in a way, its all really the same. Imperials ALWAYS set up powerful gunlines behind cover. What viable units do otherwise? They're completely predictable. Not saying their gunline is bad, it's incredibly powerful. But predictable.

Like the person you responded too, I totally disagree with you.  All armies if you kill the commander tend to lose synergy, this isnt just a Imperial thing.  Look at droids, clones etc. 

Amongst the heros Imps have, Veers, Krennic, Vader, Palp, Bossk, Boba and the weakest of them is still at a minimum average as a unit and not bad. You can build a double heavy vehicle Imperial list,  gunline list, a Palp list.  There are a lot of different archetypes and variations here.  The reason it feels like Imperials always form a gunline is because it is an actual choice for them.  You could go double heros which is good.  Double heavy vehicles which is good.  Gunline which is great, etc.

Imperials arent just some gunline faction, they are a highly mobile army that has multi role units that also gets to exploit a gunline. 

 

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28 minutes ago, bllaw said:

rude

That's exactly what I'm saying. They don't rely on one synergy that can be broken by killing one unit. Think about an imperial gunline with Veers throwing out aim tokens like candy. Kill him and the whole gunline slowly melts away. Rebels dont have that "weak link" in their armies.

I’m sorry, didn’t mean to be rude. But I just wasn’t sure what to say. Being helter-skelter isn’t a good tactical plan. And I think there are very few units in the rebel camp that have unique positions/rolls or they have too much overlap.

28 minutes ago, bllaw said:

Imperials do have units that act differently but in a way, its all really the same. Imperials ALWAYS set up powerful gunlines behind cover. What viable units do otherwise? They're completely predictable. Not saying their gunline is bad, it's incredibly powerful. But predictable.

 I can’t speak to what has been done. Players will play what they like. The gun line is only one possibility in the Imperial army (granted it is a strong one), but it is only one. Take a look at the European championships, a Speederbikes list came in the top (8 or 4 - can’t remember). Whether players utilize it or not, the options are there.

On top of all that some of the Rebel troops are either over priced or just not as good. Take a look at the two different snipers for Rebels and Imperials. The Imperials have 2 black dice on an attack. The rebels have 1 black, 1 white with surge to hit. They cost exactly the same, but with the white die, Rebels have a worse chance of getting a double hit, but a better chance of getting a single. That’s not a better chance of a critical mind you, just a better chance of a hit on the black die. A black attack die has 3 hits, 1 surge, 1 crit and 3 blanks. So without a surge the Imperials have a 50% chance of getting a hit on each die. A white attack die has 1 hit, 1 surge, 1 crit and 5 blanks. So with a surge the white die has a 37.5% chance of getting a hit. This means, Rebels have less of a chance of getting 2 hits. Everyone likes to point at the higher chance of getting a hit on the black die and somehow that makes it even, but with most units being in heavy cover and having Sharpshooter 1, you need two hits. Unless you roll a crit, but both sides have equal chance of crits as there is only one on each die. So that all being said, the Rebel snipers are not as good as Imperial, yet they’re the same price. And I won’t even go into if the second mini can attack (the Imps have 2 dice to the rebel’s 1 - though rebels may have range). There are more little things like this throughout the Rebels and they do need a points adjustment and this makes for more imbalance.

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47 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

So that all being said, the Rebel snipers are not as good as Imperial, yet they’re the same price. And I won’t even go into if the second mini can attack (the Imps have 2 dice to the rebel’s 1 - though rebels may have range).

The range is why they cost the same. How many times have I had a strike team be at range 2 of enemies? hardly ever. How many times have I had a strike team at range 3 of enemies? pretty common. Way easier to get an extra dice in there. Rebels aren't worse than imperials theyre just different and harder to use and maybe the faction just isnt for you. I can't figure imperials out so I've pretty much quit playing that faction. I just play better as rebels

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In a straight comparison, Imperial vs Rebels.  Imperials win in every generic unit comparison except Dewback vs Tauntaun.

Rebels have some different archtypes or playstyles in their characters (heroes/operatives) that are very good, but overall. I'd agree that Rebels are harder to pickup and play and their units are not as good (not by much, but generally speaking just below the Imperials.  They've tried to balance them and you can see their effort.)

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@JediPartisan
"And I think there are very few units in the rebel camp that have unique positions/rolls or they have too much overlap."

What role do you see each of the Rebel units playing? (I think it's possible not everyone is operating off a shared definition here).

Here's my hot take on them:

Corps: (Capture Objectives)
Rebel Troopers - Mid range, Active defense, Cheap troops.
Fleet Troopers - Short range, Ambush (Area Denial), push.
Rebel Veterans - Mid range, defensive 
Mark II Medium Blaster - Mid-range area denial, support weapon, strong offense.

Support: (Help Corps do their jobs)
AT-RT - Short range infantry breaker, Mid range distraction, Long range anti-tank / All versions mobile cover for infantry to advance under.
1.4 FD Laser Cannon Team - Long Range anti-tank area denial.
Tauntaun Riders - Fast skirmisher, flanker, line disruption. 

Special Forces: (Stronger versions of Corps, also Capture Objectives) Special Forces are there to provide you options that are otherwise unavailable to the corps units; i.e. ignoring terrain, expanded attack ranges, mobile cover, better deployment options, stronger passive defense, better attacks for breaking units in cover (i.e. Charge, Sharpshooter).
Wookie Warriors - Short Range, all terrain line disruption/breakers with resilience to suppression.
Rebel Commandos - Mid Range (with short/long range special weapons), advanced deployment with mobile cover from suppression.
Rebel Pathfinders - Short/Mid/Long range, advanced deployment with strong benefits from suppression (free move, extra defense dice). Deploy to capture objectives early, setup early ambushes around enemy deployment zones and delay the enemy forces until the main force arrives, or otherwise establish a difficult decision for your opponent.

Heavy: (Stronger versions of Supports) Rebel heavies can exploit their speed to force engagements early on the opponents side of the board, giving the Rebel corps/special forces time to traverse the board. Alternatively, they can be used to hunt down isolated units, overwhelming them in a mismatch, then pivoting back to support the main force.
X-34 - Mid-Long range harassment and Command/Operative transport.
T-47 - Mid-Long range flanker/hunter-killer cavalry/anti-tank.

Operatives and Commanders all seem self-evidently distinct from their cards and unique mix of abilities generally.

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Y'all are on crack! Rebels have some of the most pimpdiggity units in the whole game!

Luke is awesome.
Sabine is awesome.
Leia is awesome for her points.
Jyn gives you some pierce at range 3, and the cheapest leadership 3 at the moment.

Tauntauns are awesome.
Strike teams are awesome.
AT-RT's got cheaper and were already solid if you spam 3 of them.
Rebel troopers only cost 40pts bare, and that means you only pay 120pts for the obligatory troops tax.
R2-D2 can help give you a free victory point now.
Wookies are hilarious and good if you aren't a scrub.
The heavies are pretty good for their points costs.
Tauntauns are awesome.

Just don't run troops.

See your armour saves as just a bonus.

She'll be right mate.

 

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3 hours ago, lologrelol said:

Y'all are on crack! Rebels have some of the most pimpdiggity units in the whole game!

Luke is awesome.
Sabine is awesome.
Leia is awesome for her points.
Jyn gives you some pierce at range 3, and the cheapest leadership 3 at the moment.

Tauntauns are awesome.
Strike teams are awesome.
AT-RT's got cheaper and were already solid if you spam 3 of them.
Rebel troopers only cost 40pts bare, and that means you only pay 120pts for the obligatory troops tax.
R2-D2 can help give you a free victory point now.
Wookies are hilarious and good if you aren't a scrub.
The heavies are pretty good for their points costs.
Tauntauns are awesome.

Just don't run troops.

See your armour saves as just a bonus.

She'll be right mate.

 

I have had a ton of success with my team "13 wookiees and a whiner"

Luke Skywalker (Force Push, Force Reflexes)
Chewbacca
Rebel Troopers
Rebel Troopers
Rebel Troopers
Rebel Troopers
Wookiee Warriors (Bowcaster Wookiee, Duck and Cover, Tenacity, Recon Intel)
Wookiee Warriors (Bowcaster Wookiee, Duck and Cover, Tenacity, Recon Intel)
Wookiee Warriors (Bowcaster Wookiee, Duck and Cover, Tenacity, Recon Intel)

Commands:
Son of Skywalker (1), You Serve Your Master Well (1), My Ally Is the Force (2), Full of Surprises (2), Return of the Jedi (3), I am a Jedi (3), Standing Orders (4)
 

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