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Herowannabe

Armada: Clone Wars announcement at GAMA

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4 hours ago, Reavern said:

Have you ever worked out the math?

Armada core set = $90 (although it's perpetually on sale for $80 these days)

CR90 ship expansion = $20

Nebulon-B ship expansion = $20

Victory Star Destroyer ship expansion = $40

Dice pack = $10

Movement tool = $10

Buying the expansions and packs individually costs $100, and you won't get extra range rulers or damage card packs. Buying a second core set is a much better deal.

The only reason to get the ship expansions for the core ships is to get the unique cards in those expansions. For years, only the Nebulon-B ship expansion had XI7 Turbolasers and only the Victory SD ship expansion had Flight Controllers, until the SSD and Starhawk were released, respectively. The CR90 was the only way to get Leading Shots until the Interdictor was released in Wave 4. The VSD is still the only way to get Ion Cannon Batteries.

So there are certainly reasons to buy the core ship expansions. But it's better value to buy 2 or more core sets.

That's why I plan to buy at least 2 Clone Wars Armada core sets. It all depends on what ships are included.

If you are counting the Core box as on sale (And it is 100 for the regular price), then we can count on the perpetual on sale price of the victory as 20$. **** even the Neb is usually around 15$ nowadays. 

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8 hours ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Ok but what’s the incentive for ffg or asmodee to release it?  They make more money if they just stick to releasing a typical core set.

Do they? I've talked to plenty of people that didn't take the plunge on Armada due to the sticker shock of the core box. Speaking from my own experience I was only able to justify taking that initial plunge because I snagged a $50 set on Amazon. I get that Armada is cheaper than 40K but that doesn't make it cheap.

Combine that with a core set being the only way to get things like a damage deck, basic obstacles, or official range ruler (outside of a Prime or whatever they want to call it year to year) and I think they might be better off doing a smaller set that gives you the basics for $40 than the basics plus ships for $100. It would be a moot point if they actually sold some of these items separately like they do with maneuver tools or dice.

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I don't feel Armada is particularly expensive for a miniatures game; that said, for someone wanting to get involved on a budget, I can see how the existing core set might appear less attractive that an individual faction starter box.

To be honest, it was one of the reasons I didn't take the plunge sooner.

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$1100 for *Everything*?!
Abd I can buy it in pieces?

Small bits at a time?

and get hours of combination game and building progress ftom it?

 

Shhesh, man, I’ve got a 6 year old in Canada.

$1000 is STARTUP for most things these days in the hobby world 😁

 

I mean, I used to work fir GW. I’ve seen both sides of THAT math 😁

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More importantly, I feel people forget that you don't need everything to enjoy the game...or even to be reasonably competitive. So those calculations only really apply if you have your heart set on glory at the regional or international level, at which point you're already making more than a standard commitment!

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17 hours ago, Reavern said:

By "balance" I was referring to @Rmcarrier1's belief that the Clone Wars core set would have 1 Acclamator (medium) and 1 C70 Charger (small) for the Republic, and 1 Munificent (medium) for the Separatists. That's unbalanced. The Armada core ship provided 2 small ships for Rebels and 1 medium ship for the Empire, so they were asymmetrically balanced.

What 2 small ships will the Republic have in CW? The C70 Charger is obvious. The only other two I can think of are the Arquitens and Pelta, both of which already exist in Armada. The CWA core set isn't going to be very appealing if it includes 1 or 2 ships we already have. Therefore, the Republic is most likely going to get the Acclamator and C70.

The Separatists don't even have a small ship that I can think of, which means they aren't going to get 2 small ships in the CWA core set. They're most likely going to get the Munificent star frigate, which will probably be classified as a medium ship.

It would be interesting if the Munificents always came in pairs, since in the Clone Wars they always outnumbered Venators and it usually took 4 Munificents to overwhelm a single Venator. Of course, CWA is a game and will have to be balanced, so it's possible FFG will make 2 Munificents equal to one Venator. So why not sell the Munificents in pairs at the $50 price point (same as an ISD) and a single Venator at the $40 price point?

If the CWA core set had a Venator and 2 Munificents, it would be a lot more appealing than an Acclamator, C70, and Munificent. Everyone is going to want multiples of the Venator and Munificent, so a lot of people will buy 2 core sets, maybe more. FFG will want to sell as many CWA core sets as possible, so it would make sense for them to choose the Venator and Munificent.

That art pic of the Acclamator and C70s don't necessarily mean the Acclamator and C70 will be in Wave 1 of CWA. Although, my hope is that Wave 1 will include: Venator (large), Acclamator (medium), and C70 (small). For the Separatists, it will probably be Munificant (medium) and Providence (large). And, of course, there will be Squadrons I packs for the Republic and Separatists in Wave 1.

What I really want to know is if and when CWA will release the Separatists Lucrehulk battleship? That would be an insanely awesome Wave 2 ship. But I have a feeling that FFG will wait a while to release that one because it would be even larger and more expensive than the Starhawk, which was $70. A Lucrehulk could easily be $100 and might be classified as a huge ship.

While I would be thrilled if the core set was 2 Munificents and a Venator, I don't think they will go that route. Honestly I would buy up at least 3 core sets if that was the case, and I believe many others would as well.

The point of a core set is to introduce new players to the game, not to allow your fan base an easy way to stock up on the most iconic ships in the game, or undercut sales for what should be the highest selling expansions. 

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5 hours ago, Dobbs Mottley said:

I don't feel Armada is particularly expensive for a miniatures game; that said, for someone wanting to get involved on a budget, I can see how the existing core set might appear less attractive that an individual faction starter box.

To be honest, it was one of the reasons I didn't take the plunge sooner.

Agreed.

For experienced miniatures gamers, Armada is by all accounts highly affordable, at least in comparison to other existing titles. However, to casual board gamers (i.e., a potential untapped market for growth), there's no denying it's expensive. A $90 entry price (plus expansions) is definitely a barrier to entry if a consumer's point of reference is something like Catan. When I bought Armada, it was easily the most expensive "board" game I had ever purchased. And yes, my background was such that I didn't even call it a miniatures game -- to this casual gamer, it was simply a "board" game with incredible miniatures and compelling game mechanics set in a universe I loved. I decided I had to have it, but I could see how thousands of others might not pull the trigger.

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You know the 'price is too high' for the starter box has been beaten to death round theses parts I must say. The argument hose thus:

A. Too **** high!

B. It's a reasonable price for what you get.

A. Why not faction starters?

B. Something along the lines of balance and or was of getting a buddy to play.

C. A statement on relative cheapness compare to other mini games.

D. But what about x-wing?

B. Arrrrrrrg look at the power creep.

Ect.

Look guys, I know 100 bucks ain't nothin. We all get that. That's 5 movies/DVDs, 2 nice nights out for dinner for 2, 2 basic troop units in 40k, 5 bottles of Jack Daniels, 10 cases of beer, 25 12 pack o soda, like 20 or 30 pack of MTG boosters, I could go on.

The real point here is that is the game worth the fun provided by an equal (roughly) amount of disposable fun income? I say yes, as I think we all would. 

Dunno just my thoughts on this recurring point.

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1 hour ago, Rmcarrier1 said:

Agreed.

For experienced miniatures gamers, Armada is by all accounts highly affordable, at least in comparison to other existing titles. However, to casual board gamers (i.e., a potential untapped market for growth), there's no denying it's expensive. A $90 entry price (plus expansions) is definitely a barrier to entry if a consumer's point of reference is something like Catan. When I bought Armada, it was easily the most expensive "board" game I had ever purchased. And yes, my background was such that I didn't even call it a miniatures game -- to this casual gamer, it was simply a "board" game with incredible miniatures and compelling game mechanics set in a universe I loved. I decided I had to have it, but I could see how thousands of others might not pull the trigger.

That's what I meant.

I wouldn't call my friends "casual" board gamers, but Armada was one of the most expensive games they ever played, which is why for over 2 years they'd play using my collection.

That $100 (CAD) was a high bar for them to get over. It wasn't until I bought some used Armada core sets and gave them to my friends as gifts that they finally got into the game. Once they had the core, $20 here and $40 there was within their budget for board games.

I just don't think there's any way around Armada's high entry price, because even if there was a $20 Essentials Kit, you can't play Armada just with the dice, tools, and tokens. Even a 200-point task force list will require $80+ ships and squadrons. So $20 for the EK and $80 for expansions, it's still $100 minimum.

That $100 barrier is what keeps the casuals from getting into Armada.

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6 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Twice the pride, double the fall!

I agree.

Unless FFG literally has thousands of Clone Wars Armada core sets sitting in their warehouse in Minnesota right now, it would be foolish to assume that China's manufacturing industry will be back on track and can fulfill the Q4 2020 release.

I seriously doubt that board games factories will be a priority. It's going to be electronics and heavy industry that are prioritized.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, cynanbloodbane said:

While I would be thrilled if the core set was 2 Munificents and a Venator, I don't think they will go that route. Honestly I would buy up at least 3 core sets if that was the case, and I believe many others would as well.

The point of a core set is to introduce new players to the game, not to allow your fan base an easy way to stock up on the most iconic ships in the game, or undercut sales for what should be the highest selling expansions. 

Armada isn't the only FFG game with a high-value core set. The Legion core set is an even better value -- even after FFG raised the price by $10.

FFG wouldn't sell the core set at a loss; and buying multiple core sets is fairly common among Legion enthusiasts, so I think FFG's objective is to sell as many core sets as possible, even if that means selling fewer core ship expansions.

Therefore, I think FFG will make the Clone Wars Armada core set appealing in order to sell as many as possible. It's certainly possible the CWA will include the Acclamator, Charger C70, and Munificent. I'll still buy two cores if those are the ships.

But if FFG really wants Clone Wars Armada to make a big splash, they should include the Venator and 2 Munificents in the core set, because those are the iconic warships for each Clone Wars faction. And knowing FFG, the Venator and Munificent ship expansions will contain unique cards -- in addition to the commander and ship title cards -- so we'll all need to buy at least one of each ship expansion anyway.

It's the anticipation and not knowing that's driving me crazy. If FFG announced Clone Wars Armada tomorrow, I'd drop $400 in pre-orders without any hesitation. Even more if FFG released new playmats, like Coruscant, Geonosis, and Mustafar -- ideally in 6x3' Armada format instead of us having to use 3x3' X-wing mats.

Edited by Reavern
Revisions

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19 minutes ago, Reavern said:

Even more if FFG released new playmats, like Coruscant, Geonosis, and Mustafar -- ideally in 6x3' Armada format instead of us having to use 3x3' X-wing mats.

Thanks for making me realize how much I want this.  The current mat  selection is incredibly dull by now.

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59 minutes ago, Reavern said:

Even more if FFG released new playmats, like Coruscant, Geonosis, and Mustafar -- ideally in 6x3' Armada format instead of us having to use 3x3' X-wing mats.

Not happening for 2 reasons:

 

1) They can only produce 3x3 mats, due to equipment limitations in local production.

 

2) There are already mats with those planets, but they were restricted to the XWing system open series, and they said at the time they would be unique to them to not devalue them as prizes.

 

Itd take a major shift for them to do otherwise, and people don’t even have any faith their releases will be on time as is.

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I’d love a Coruscant map and feel that an “alt-art” version might allow FFG to bypass their own rules. It seems like a must for the Clone Wars set.

The other two mats I’d like to see are Jakku (to go with the Starhawk) and D’Qar, should we ever get the sequel trilogy.

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14 hours ago, Reavern said:

That's what I meant.

I wouldn't call my friends "casual" board gamers, but Armada was one of the most expensive games they ever played, which is why for over 2 years they'd play using my collection.

That $100 (CAD) was a high bar for them to get over. It wasn't until I bought some used Armada core sets and gave them to my friends as gifts that they finally got into the game. Once they had the core, $20 here and $40 there was within their budget for board games.

I just don't think there's any way around Armada's high entry price, because even if there was a $20 Essentials Kit, you can't play Armada just with the dice, tools, and tokens. Even a 200-point task force list will require $80+ ships and squadrons. So $20 for the EK and $80 for expansions, it's still $100 minimum.

That $100 barrier is what keeps the casuals from getting into Armada.

I think the thing that makes Armada even harder on the entry is the rule system in addition to the price tag. It's just much harder to wrap you head around all the delayed stuff like orders or begin of activation shooting. I think those two together make the game a not so great newbie attractor. X-Wing seems to be way more suited for the entry level and thus I think Armada is more for people jumping over from there (and other TTGs like GW stuff) anyway.

One Consideration regarding the Core Set or not question is, that this art needs to come from something. The way X-Wing 2.0 has handled factions tells me that this might very well be the box art for the republic starter set. If that's true, I'm kind of disappointed due to hoping for some revisions similar to the TFA core for X-Wing 1.0 (which kind of was a X-Wing 1.25).

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33 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

Just curious, why is everyone convinced that there will be a new core set and not just clone wars era expansion sets? Was there and announcement or interview or something that I missed?

No announcements, they're just running on Precedent.

I mean, making a definitive statement in either direction is a guess at best.

 

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2 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

Just curious, why is everyone convinced that there will be a new core set and not just clone wars era expansion sets? Was there and announcement or interview or something that I missed?

There was a Clone Wars Legion core set and a X-Wing Second Edition starter set; therefore, it stands to reason that there will be a Clone Wars Armada core set.

I'm certain that FFG is hoping that Clone Wars Armada will attract new players to Armada. It might seem unimaginable to fans of the Original Trilogy, but there is a generation of fans who grew up with the Prequel Trilogy and are nostalgic for those characters, starships, and starfighters. Those fans might've passed on Star Wars Armada, but they'll jump into Clone Wars Armada. However, if they had to buy the original Armada core set AND a Clone Wars "expansion" set, that might be a daunting financial hurdle to get over.

Whereas a Clone Wars Armada core set would be a simple, self-contained, starter kit.

Also, never under-estimate the appeal of a BIG Box. If you instruct a child (or even an adult) to go pick a board game to play, chances are they'll gravitate toward the biggest box on the shelf. It's human nature: Bigger is better! Therefore, a Clone Wars Armada core set will be more appealing than an expansion box, like Rebellion in the Rim or the Corellian Conflict, even if the former is more expensive than the latter.

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7 minutes ago, Reavern said:

Also, never under-estimate the appeal of a BIG Box. If you instruct a child (or even an adult) to go pick a board game to play, chances are they'll gravitate toward the biggest box on the shelf. It's human nature: Bigger is better! Therefore, a Clone Wars Armada core set will be more appealing than an expansion box, like Rebellion in the Rim or the Corellian Conflict, even if the former is more expensive than the latter.

Which explains a lot about FFG's attitude towards packaging... The Starhawk wasn't too bad (it's a chunky thing), but the Onager had an awful lot of empty space in the box. And some of the recent Legion stuff has been a bit ridiculous when it comes to empty space.

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3 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

Just curious, why is everyone convinced that there will be a new core set and not just clone wars era expansion sets? Was there and announcement or interview or something that I missed?

It reduces the barrier of entry for new players. Suffice to say, FFG is investing in Clone Wars to expand the player base, not to please its existing customers (though of course that’s a nice bonus).

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2 hours ago, Grumbleduke said:

Which explains a lot about FFG's attitude towards packaging... The Starhawk wasn't too bad (it's a chunky thing), but the Onager had an awful lot of empty space in the box. And some of the recent Legion stuff has been a bit ridiculous when it comes to empty space.

The boxes are a standard size so that they can be fitted in a standard box that goes on a standard pallet in a standard container.

 

 

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