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Adm_Stinger

Starhawk plus Ywing swarm

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Hey what are some of you all opinions about this fleet I made for fun but has turned out better than I thought. 
 

Starhawk (393/400)
Rebels

Commander: Commander Kyrsta Agate

Objectives: Rift Assault, Rift Ambush, Doomed Station

[flagship] Starhawk-class Battleship Mark II (150)
 - Commander Kyrsta Agate (20)
 - Unity (10)
 - Leading Shots (4)
 - Advanced Transponder Net (5)
 - Walex Blissex (5)
 - Damage Control Officer (5)
 - Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
 - Ruthless Strategists (4)
= 210 total points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
 - Bright Hope (2)
 - Bomber Command Center (8)
 - Ezra Bridger (3)
= 31 total points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
 - Quantum Storm (1)
 - Comms Net (2)
 - Leia Organa (3)
= 24 total points

Squadrons (128/134):
1x Norra Wexley Y-wing Squadron (17)
1x Gold Squadron Y-wing Squadron (12)
8x Y-Wing Squadron (80)
1x Moldy Crow - Jan Ors (19)

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You don't have enough ships to activate all those squadrons. That's a mistake.

I've faced squadron-heavy Starhawk builds and neutralized them fairly easily by destroying the squadron-activating ships and/or changing Squadron commands using Slicer Tools. You don't even have Boosted Comms on your flotillas, which means they have to be at medium range to activate your squadrons. Any enemy ship that rolls a few blue dice is going to get an Accuracy, block Scatter, and destroy your GR-75's in 1-2 turns. Without Squadron commands, squadrons have to wait until the Squadron Phase to activate. None of your squadrons have Rogue, so they can either attack or move, but not both.

Even if you issue Squadron commands from the Starhawk, Slicer Tools can change that.

If you want to do a bomber swarm without enough ships to activate your squadrons, do what one of my opponents did and use Lancer Pursuit Craft instead. Lancers have Bomber and roll 1 black die, like the Y-Wings, but they have Rogue, so they can wait until the Squadron Phase and attack and move, or move and attack. Lancers aren't as tough as Y-Wings, but they're faster, so they can get in and inflict damage sooner. And only Speed-4 ships have any chance of escaping them. Lancers also have Grit so it might not be necessary to bring Jan Ors.

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Looks great! I’m a little concerned about having so many more squadrons than you can reasonably command in a turn, but I can also see that a list like this might want some sentries to just hang back and blunt the opponent’s bomber assault, so maybe 3-4 of them function as reserves.

If you find you want a bit more punch, you could drop 4 Y-Wings to add 3 B-Wings, and find a chair for Wedge Antilles (Officer), who is just amazing. That gives you better anti-squadron power, much better bombing strength, and a few more squads that aren’t Heavy (which makes the Unity title better). It will also help you stay inside your fleet command limit a bit, which I personally think is very helpful. And Wedge is still good even if you lose the B-Wings, as he can give ANY 3 non-unique squadrons the ability to Cloak.

I also personally have a very difficult time building a Starhawk without Raymus Antilles aboard. He just makes all your commands so much more powerful. He essentially gives the Starhawk one of the major advantages of an SSD: the free command token each turn. I would drop DCO for Antilles.

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Hey,

Those are some good points @Reavern. I will look into some Lancers.

@Cpt ObVus I did just that use some of the squads as the attack wing and the others as sentry duty. I recently faced a Reeikan aces with Yavaris and support ships. I won the game but the squad fight was a tie. I will look into Antilles Officer I hadn't considered him yet. That could get my sentry squads into a better position.

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1 hour ago, Adm_Stinger said:

Those are some good points @Reavern. I will look into some Lancers.

If you’re going that route, I would recommend YT-2400s.  For 1 more point, you lose bomber and grit but get 2 hull and another blue.  Some other options are Rogue Squadron or Hera Syndulla (who tends to work best with Wedge/Dutch in a more “rogue aces” oriented setup.)

The problem with Lancers is they’re fragile and worse than most squadrons in almost every way (point for point.)  Being a low-maintenance rogue is not much of a saving grace in a world where SSD flak can kill a Lancer in two rounds flat.

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1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

If you’re going that route, I would recommend YT-2400s.  For 1 more point, you lose bomber and grit but get 2 hull and another blue.  Some other options are Rogue Squadron or Hera Syndulla (who tends to work best with Wedge/Dutch in a more “rogue aces” oriented setup.)

The problem with Lancers is they’re fragile and worse than most squadrons in almost every way (point for point.)  Being a low-maintenance rogue is not much of a saving grace in a world where SSD flak can kill a Lancer in two rounds flat.

He's running bombers, not fighters. The Lancer already provides an extra anti-squad blue die compared to the Y-wing, which isn't even a priority for a bomber build. The Bomber keyword is worth more than 2 hull and an extra anti-squadron blue die. Without the Bomber keyword, it's not a bomber, and an anti-ship black die can only inflict 1 damage and will never deal a face-up damage card. Also, it can't utilize Norra Wexley's special ability because crits don't count unless the squadron has the Bomber keyword.

Only 1 YT-2400 comes in a Rogues & Villains expansion. 80 points worth is 5 YT-2400s. Not many people own 5 Rogues & Villains packs. TBH I own 6 of the Villains squadrons, but only 2 complete expansions, so not even I could run 5 YT-2400s. Rogues & Villains packs have been sold out for months. Whereas Rebel Fighter Squadrons II are plentiful. Only 3 packs would be necessary for 5 Lancers.

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50 minutes ago, Reavern said:

He's running bombers, not fighters. The Lancer already provides an extra anti-squad blue die compared to the Y-wing, which isn't even a priority for a bomber build. The Bomber keyword is worth more than 2 hull and an extra anti-squadron blue die. Without the Bomber keyword, it's not a bomber, and an anti-ship black die can only inflict 1 damage and will never deal a face-up damage card. Also, it can't utilize Norra Wexley's special ability because crits don't count unless the squadron has the Bomber keyword.

Point is, Lancers are pretty flimsy, and a dead anything doesn’t help you. Lancers are... fine, but I think they need Escorts.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Reavern said:

He's running bombers, not fighters. The Lancer already provides an extra anti-squad blue die compared to the Y-wing, which isn't even a priority for a bomber build. The Bomber keyword is worth more than 2 hull and an extra anti-squadron blue die. Without the Bomber keyword, it's not a bomber, and an anti-ship black die can only inflict 1 damage and will never deal a face-up damage card. Also, it can't utilize Norra Wexley's special ability because crits don't count unless the squadron has the Bomber keyword.

Only 1 YT-2400 comes in a Rogues & Villains expansion. 80 points worth is 5 YT-2400s. Not many people own 5 Rogues & Villains packs. TBH I own 6 of the Villains squadrons, but only 2 complete expansions, so not even I could run 5 YT-2400s. Rogues & Villains packs have been sold out for months. Whereas Rebel Fighter Squadrons II are plentiful. Only 3 packs would be necessary for 5 Lancers.

The Lancer has half again the armament of a Y-wing, but also half again the cost.  The average bombing damage is comparable (0.75 vs 1.25) and compensated for by the extra rounds a YT gets to live.  Without Escort, anti-squadron had better become a priority because the ability to bomb will only be lasting as long as Jan (grit isn't an answer in a real squad match, merely a way to be a bit more slippery once in a while.)  You can keep a not insignificant number of Y-wings (3-4 + Norra + Gold) and sprinkle in YTs to maintain a fair bit of bombing value, while posing a legitimate threat to enemy squadrons with raw bulk and some hitting power.  The point being: in some ways, the Lancer is a glass Firespray and I wouldn't want someone to spend $40 to learn that.

 

I do prefer the Hera solution for the IRL cost reasons you cited, though.  Or swapping some Y-wings for a lesser number of X-wings.

 

Edited by The Jabbawookie

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4 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Point is, Lancers are pretty flimsy, and a dead anything doesn’t help you. Lancers are... fine, but I think they need Escorts.

I would hardly call Lancers "flimsy". They're 4 hull, same as A-wings. X-wings are only 1 point more at 5 hull. TIEs and Z-95s are flimsy at 3 hull.

The whole reason for taking Jan Ors is so that enemy squadrons can't stop the bombers from attacking ships. The Y-wings only have 2 anti-squadron blue dice, so it's not even worthwhile for them to attack the fighters shooting them. Lancers would at least have the option to shoot back at the fighters or focus on bombing. The Lancers might not survive as long, but they will inflict far more damage to ships while they're alive than the YT-2400s.

A simple solution is to bring Rogue Squadron. Rogue Squadron has Rogue (obvi), is a Bomber, just as good against squadrons as a YT-2400, and has Escort, so it can absorb all the damage from enemy fighters for a round (maybe two), and buy the Lancers extra time to inflict critical damage to enemy ships.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Reavern said:

I would hardly call Lancers "flimsy". They're 4 hull, same as A-wings. X-wings are only 1 point more at 5 hull. TIEs and Z-95s are flimsy at 3 hull.

For 15 points they’re the lowest-hulled squadron in the tier, and only 1 above the Z-95 or TIE for double the cost.

“Flimsy” is accurate in the same sense that Phantoms are flimsy - they die more quickly than cheaper squadrons without necessarily paying for themselves.  With X-wings?  Maybe decent.  Alone, though, you’re betting on not fighting someone with squads or flak, and that’s a weird place for a bombing wing to live.

Rogue is not an escort, but it’s definitely a solid addition to the wing. Jan needs protection.

Edited by The Jabbawookie

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

The Lancer has half again the armament of a Y-wing, but also half again the cost.  The average bombing damage is comparable (0.75 vs 1.25) and compensated for by the extra rounds a YT gets to live.  Without Escort, anti-squadron had better become a priority because the ability to bomb will only be lasting as long as Jan (grit isn't an answer in a real squad match, merely a way to be a bit more slippery once in a while.)  You can keep a not insignificant number of Y-wings (3-4 + Norra + Gold) and sprinkle in YTs to maintain a fair bit of bombing value, while posing a legitimate threat to enemy squadrons with raw bulk and some hitting power.  The point being: in some ways, the Lancer is a glass Firespray and I wouldn't want someone to spend $40 to learn that.

I do prefer the Hera solution for the IRL cost reasons you cited, though.  Or swapping some Y-wings for a lesser number of X-wings.

As I originally stated, a squadron-heavy Starhawk build can be easily countered by destroying the squadron-activating ships, which will leave the Y-wings stranded without Squadron commands.

I've done this in numerous battles against Starhawks. I even successfully countered my friend's revised Starhawk Bomber build wherein he replaced Bright Hope (BCC, Toryn Far, and EHB) with a MC80C (Independence, Boosted Comms, and ECM to protect its Brace). I moved my Gozanti with Slicer Tools into range with my first activation of Round 2 and the Independence never got the chance to activate squadrons again. My Gozanti was destroyed in Round 4, then my Onager destroyed the MC80 on the first activation of Round 5.

My opponent was flying Nym, Luke Skywalker, Norra Wexley, and Gold Squadron, whereas I had no squadrons. Those 4 squadrons basically did nothing, except shoot my Onager once after it overlapped them one round while it lined up the kill shot on the MC80. But then I jumped to Speed 3 and left them behind.

The Onager is the bane of carriers. The only reliable answer is to fly squads with Rogue.

After witnessing what my Onager and Slicer Tools did to one of my friends' Starhawk Bombers build, my other friend ditched his Yavaris Jan Ors Bombers build and went with Malee Hurra and Lancers instead, which were far more effective. Malee Hurra enabled his CR90B to trigger Overload Pulse every round, enabling Amity and the Lancers to destroy my ISD2. The Lancers inflicted at least 4 face-up damage cards, and I think I only destroyed one of them. So I know how deadly Lancers can be.

Whereas YT-2400s wouldn't have inflicted any face-up damage cards, and wouldn't have had any squadrons to shoot at.

Edited by Reavern

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37 minutes ago, Reavern said:

As I originally stated, a squadron-heavy Starhawk build can be easily countered by destroying the squadron-activating ships, which will leave the Y-wings stranded without Squadron commands.

I've done this in numerous battles against Starhawks. I even successfully countered my friend's revised Starhawk Bomber build wherein he replaced Bright Hope (BCC, Toryn Far, and EHB) with a MC80C (Independence, Boosted Comms, and ECM to protect its Brace). I moved my Gozanti with Slicer Tools into range with my first activation of Round 2 and the Independence never got the chance to activate squadrons again. My Gozanti was destroyed in Round 4, then my Onager destroyed the MC80 on the first activation of Round 5.

My opponent was flying Nym, Luke Skywalker, Norra Wexley, and Gold Squadron, whereas I had no squadrons. Those 4 squadrons basically did nothing, except shoot my Onager once after it overlapped them one round while it lined up the kill shot on the MC80. But then I jumped to Speed 3 and left them behind.

The Onager is the bane of carriers. The only reliable answer is to fly squads with Rogue.

After witnessing what my Onager and Slicer Tools did to one of my friends' Starhawk Bombers build, my other friend ditched his Yavaris Jan Ors Bombers build and went with Malee Hurra and Lancers instead, which were far more effective. Malee Hurra enabled his CR90B to trigger Overload Pulse every round, enabling Amity and the Lancers to destroy my ISD2. The Lancers inflicted at least 4 face-up damage cards, and I think I only destroyed one of them. So I know how deadly Lancers can be.

Whereas YT-2400s wouldn't have inflicted any face-up damage cards, and wouldn't have had any squadrons to shoot at.

As someone who has killed multiple Onager lists with carrier fleets: I agree with you on a lot of points.  Most carriers cannot stay in command range without dying, and rogues are the easiest way to circumvent the problem (there is absolutely an art to killing ships/forcing them to disengage with uncommanded squadrons while the carrier focuses on living, but I digress.)

What we fundamentally disagree on, I think, is the nature of those rogues.  Some of this is probably a meta call; where I'm from, squadron lists and Ravager are prevalent and Lancers simply cannot fight that effectively.  When they die, it's expensive and painful.  The mere existence of those matchups keeps bulkier rogues on top, even when the payoff is slightly lower.

In a meta where carrier builds and SSDs are scarce, I can see Lancers doing more work against squadronless fleets while the Starhawk denies a quick tabling.

@Adm_Stinger would do well to think about what challenges his area offers and decide based on that which approach works best (perhaps even a mixture of both; certainly easier on the wallet. 😉)

Cheers!

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