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Nytwyng

Rey’s father was...what? (Rise of Skywalker novelization spoilers)

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Just now, Nytwyng said:

I’d be interested in one as a curiosity, but nothing more.

I felt the pacing was a bit rushed. So extending scenes a little more and getting more of the left out story elements in would be good. But really it would have been nice if it felt like they started with an overall story in mind. 

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I thought it was...OK. Some of the story decisions left me cold (even if they weren’t deal breakers), and I think that a lot of the big moments only worked as payoffs for the audience, not the characters. I’d be worried that an extended cut would just be more of the same sorts of choices, and might tip my opinion from “It was...fine” to “Nope, never plan on watching it again.”

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32 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I thought it was...OK. Some of the story decisions left me cold (even if they weren’t deal breakers), and I think that a lot of the big moments only worked as payoffs for the audience, not the characters. I’d be worried that an extended cut would just be more of the same sorts of choices, and might tip my opinion from “It was...fine” to “Nope, never plan on watching it again.”

Disclaimer: Tastes are subjective and I respect everyone's right to love or hate any form of entertainment without justification. 

That being said,  I'm pretty easy on Star Wars movies. They're fluff entertainment. The worst was a 6 out of 10 and the best was an 8 out of 10 for me. I saw "A New Hope" in the theaters in 1977 when I was in middle-school. ANH and ESB hold a certain level of nostalgia for me that transcends artistic merit.  

My biggest problem with tRoS was two problems with one source: No through-line driving the plot (a problem with most Star Wars movies) and no meaningful payoff. That's because JJ Abrams makes pretty movies with cool scenes but (as you can see from Lost and Alias) he has no idea how to maintain a narratively cohesive plot and cannot direct an ending.  

I was entertained. I'd give it a 6 out of 10. If I watch it again it will be as background noise. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Mistervimes said:

Disclaimer: Tastes are subjective and I respect everyone's right to love or hate any form of entertainment without justification. 

That being said,  I'm pretty easy on Star Wars movies. They're fluff entertainment. The worst was a 6 out of 10 and the best was an 8 out of 10 for me. I saw "A New Hope" in the theaters in 1977 when I was in middle-school. ANH and ESB hold a certain level of nostalgia for me that transcends artistic merit.  

My biggest problem with tRoS was two problems with one source: No through-line driving the plot (a problem with most Star Wars movies) and no meaningful payoff. That's because JJ Abrams makes pretty movies with cool scenes but (as you can see from Lost and Alias) he has no idea how to maintain a narratively cohesive plot and cannot direct an ending.  

I was entertained. I'd give it a 6 out of 10. If I watch it again it will be as background noise. 

 

I think that happens because he doesnt figure out what the ending is. He figures out a mystery. Then he starts telling the story. Which tend to result in writing himself into a corner or not having a satisfying ending. He fails to figure out the answer to the mystery at the beginning. 
Which is I think the biggest problem with the sequel trilogy. The first movie leaves you going how did we get here. The second movie goes who cares you can be anyone. the Third movies says Palpatine did it... It is oddly disjointed because they never really established who the big bad was. We thought it was Snoke. But when Rian killed him in the second movie it kind of left the story in a lurch. 

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I won't watch any of the new 3 again... however, i will tip my hat to JJ as he had NOTHING to work with, ep9 was visually stunning but story shallow. The next few months will be interesting SW wise as Iger's quit and apperently Kennedy's contract is up for renewal (meh, only a rumor)

There is enough 'Diversity' 'Equality Pushing' 'Gender Tolerance' 'SJW' 'LGBT+' Rights in my workplace that I just want to escape for 2-3hrs into a STORY... Ripley, Buffy, Xena, Red Sonja, Princess Leia were strong enough female leads without pushing the Feminazi agenda**.... I await Mando Season 2 with trepidation. If Favreau has his way it'll ramp up better than season 1, hopefully.... with Kennedy sticking her nose in it'll go down a different route.... off kilter. back on track sorry. Ep8 was a sh*tfest

**because we didn't have social media to continually push it. With the MeToo movement I don't even start conversations with female staff now, I wait for them to start and stay in  their company as little as possible. I've worked way too hard and studied way too long to change careers that I am unwilling to risk losing it and working four 10hr shifts and Amaz*on ever again....the current climate in the Western world for Heterosexual men has put them way at the bottom for 'Equality'

I saw the High Republic promo vid on youtube and saw the brainstorm board.... sad times for SW I reckon tbh

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12 minutes ago, DidntFallAsleep66 said:

I won't watch any of the new 3 again... however, i will tip my hat to JJ as he had NOTHING to work with, ep9 was visually stunning but story shallow. The next few months will be interesting SW wise as Iger's quit and apperently Kennedy's contract is up for renewal (meh, only a rumor)

There is enough 'Diversity' 'Equality Pushing' 'Gender Tolerance' 'SJW' 'LGBT+' Rights in my workplace that I just want to escape for 2-3hrs into a STORY... Ripley, Buffy, Xena, Red Sonja, Princess Leia were strong enough female leads without pushing the Feminazi agenda**.... I await Mando Season 2 with trepidation. If Favreau has his way it'll ramp up better than season 1, hopefully.... with Kennedy sticking her nose in it'll go down a different route.... off kilter. back on track sorry. Ep8 was a sh*tfest

**because we didn't have social media to continually push it. With the MeToo movement I don't even start conversations with female staff now, I wait for them to start and stay in  their company as little as possible. I've worked way too hard and studied way too long to change careers that I am unwilling to risk losing it and working four 10hr shifts and Amaz*on ever again....the current climate in the Western world for Heterosexual men has put them way at the bottom for 'Equality'

I saw the High Republic promo vid on youtube and saw the brainstorm board.... sad times for SW I reckon tbh

Well Kennedy apparently was kicked off the Mandalorian Set. at least there is rumor of that happening. if yes that is a good sign.

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Just wanting to point out that The Mandalorian is about a latino dude with a black boss/ally/partner and a New Zealander murderbot, with the two most physically powerful characters being women, one of whom outranks the main character, and the only white male dudes are villains. Even the cool bad Imperial guy doesn't get to be white.

It has a showrunner of Jewish/Russian/Canadian/Italian descent, with a very conscious choice of picking female and/or minority directors.

Do you guys even pay attention to what you're watching? The Mandalorian is ten times as "SJW" as any of the movies.

The Youtube channels that are still raging over The LAst Jedi would have torn A New Hope apart just over how Leia was portrayed. The cell block scene alone would have made them explode if they'd have seen it now instead of when they were 5.

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25 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Just wanting to point out that The Mandalorian is about a latino dude with a black boss/ally/partner and a New Zealander murderbot, with the two most physically powerful characters being women, one of whom outranks the main character, and the only white male dudes are villains. Even the cool bad Imperial guy doesn't get to be white.

It has a showrunner of Jewish/Russian/Canadian/Italian descent, with a very conscious choice of picking female and/or minority directors.

Do you guys even pay attention to what you're watching? The Mandalorian is ten times as "SJW" as any of the movies.

The Youtube channels that are still raging over The LAst Jedi would have torn A New Hope apart just over how Leia was portrayed. The cell block scene alone would have made them explode if they'd have seen it now instead of when they were 5.

think you don't get the anti SJW side at all OR are just out to attack them 

they don't like characters who are just for checking a box they want good characters and don't want identity politics forced into the story.

Truth be told is you seem to be one pushing a view to the point you are blind to the other side 

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24 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Just wanting to point out that The Mandalorian is about a latino dude with a black boss/ally/partner and a New Zealander murderbot, with the two most physically powerful characters being women, one of whom outranks the main character, and the only white male dudes are villains. Even the cool bad Imperial guy doesn't get to be white.

It has a showrunner of Jewish/Russian/Canadian/Italian descent, with a very conscious choice of picking female and/or minority directors.

Do you guys even pay attention to what you're watching? The Mandalorian is ten times as "SJW" as any of the movies.

The Youtube channels that are still raging over The Last Jedi would have torn A New Hope apart just over how Leia was portrayed. The cell block scene alone would have made them explode if they'd have seen it now instead of when they were 5.

The Difference is they made the story good with out seeking to check off boxes. They wrote the characters well and in a believable manner and worried about story. And yet they still managed to check off more boxes than a lot of the movies did. With out making a big deal about it. They just did it.The problem is Sequel Trilogy was so busy saying Rey is an awesome roll model they forgot to actually make her one. have actual character growth. Make mistakes etc.  I liked Rey's set up in force awakens. I did not like what they did in the Last Jedi because it broke the established rules about how the force works. 

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5 minutes ago, Oldmike1 said:

think you don't get the anti SJW side at all OR are just out to attack them 

they don't like characters who are just for checking a box they want good characters and don't want identity politics forced into the story.

Truth be told is you seem to be one pushing a view to the point you are blind to the other side 

Problem is they are so busy checking boxes they forget that you are supposed to entertain your audience. You are supposed to make likable believable characters that grow. I read stories by awesome writers who manage to be able to have diversity and have the stories be fun and entertaining. but that comes from actually writing a good story.

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3 minutes ago, Oldmike1 said:

think you don't get the anti SJW side at all OR are just out to attack them 

they don't like characters who are just for checking a box they want good characters and don't want identity politics forced into the story.

Truth be told is you seem to be one pushing a view to the point you are blind to the other side 

Characters that exist just to check boxes aren't an "SJW" problem.  And there aren't any in the Star Wars sequels.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

The Difference is they made the story good with out seeking to check off boxes. They wrote the characters well and in a believable manner and worried about story. And yet they still managed to check off more boxes than a lot of the movies did. With out making a big deal about it. They just did it.The problem is Sequel Trilogy was so busy saying Rey is an awesome roll model they forgot to actually make her one. have actual character growth. Make mistakes etc.  I liked Rey's set up in force awakens. I did not like what they did in the Last Jedi because it broke the established rules about how the force works. 

So what you're saying is that the sequal trilogy doesn't have an "SJW" problem at all, it just has a bad writing problem? 

And of course there have never been rules about how the Force works (unles you accept RPG rules as primary canon). What little rules there were kept being rewritten by George Lucas.

Edited by micheldebruyn

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2 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

So what you're saying is that the sequal trilogy doesn't have an "SJW" problem at all, it just has a bad writing problem? 

And of course there have never been rules about how the Force works (unles you accept RPG rules as primary canon). What little rules there were kept being rewritten by George Lucas.

They SJW is a major component to the bad writing. The SJW mentality is largely how certain kinds of bad writing happen.  It is a specific set of priorities that leads to poor writing. 
You can write diverse stories with good writing. But you have to set out to write a good story and have your diversity stem from that. You need to write your characters as 3 dimensional characters who have there own foibles and strengths etc. Those strengths and foibles will mean they will likely solve the story worthy problem in an entertaining and interesting way that makes sense for that character. 

There were established rules for how the force worked. Some stuff can be intuited but much force use requires training. The strength in force tends to be inherited. Which is why after the Force Awakens many were questioning where did Rey come from? who were her parents? Was she at Luke's academy and have training at an early age that she forgot? And so on. Based on the Rules of the Force set up by Lucas these were valid questions we were expecting to get some answers too in TLJ. When those questions were ignored and Rey was made even more powerful with no real training That is when Rey started being called a Mary Sue.  She was not called one before that point as people assumed the questions would be answered with something more than It doesnt matter. 

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8 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

They SJW is a major component to the bad writing.

Repeating it doesn't make it true.

Quote

The SJW mentality is largely how certain kinds of bad writing happen.  It is a specific set of priorities that leads to poor writing. 
You can write diverse stories with good writing. But you have to set out to write a good story and have your diversity stem from that. You need to write your characters as 3 dimensional characters who have there own foibles and strengths etc. Those strengths and foibles will mean they will likely solve the story worthy problem in an entertaining and interesting way that makes sense for that character. 

If it were a set of priorities that leads to bad writing then how come The Mandalorian is good? Because it obviously has that same set of priorities, only far more so, because there's a lot of diversity behind the cameras there too.

But if you look at the earlier non-"SJW" writing of JJ Abrams and TFA and TROS, you'll see a lot of very similar failings of penmanship.

Quote

There were established rules for how the force worked. Some stuff can be intuited but much force use requires training. The strength in force tends to be inherited. Which is why after the Force Awakens many were questioning where did Rey come from? who were her parents? Was she at Luke's academy and have training at an early age that she forgot? And so on. Based on the Rules of the Force set up by Lucas these were valid questions we were expecting to get some answers too in TLJ. When those questions were ignored and Rey was made even more powerful with no real training That is when Rey started being called a Mary Sue.  She was not called one before that point as people assumed the questions would be answered with something more than It doesnt matter. 

Strength in the Force tends to be overwhelmingly not inherited. Pretty much only Luke Skywalker inherited his Force stuff in the first 6 films (Leia never showed she had any). Kenobi, Palpatine, Windu, Dooku... no Force dynasties there. Ki-Adi-Mundi had a bunch of kids in Legends, but they weren't Force-sensitive.

And Luke had pretty much zero training compared to even a Youngling who hadn't made it to Padawan yet. Luke completely 'intuited' Move, without even knowing that was a thing you can do with the force. Rey at least knew all about that from hearing about the legend of Luke Skywalker (although she clearly was more a Han Solo fan growing up).

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15 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Repeating it doesn't make it true.

If it were a set of priorities that leads to bad writing then how come The Mandalorian is good? Because it obviously has that same set of priorities, only far more so, because there's a lot of diversity behind the cameras there too.

But if you look at the earlier non-"SJW" writing of JJ Abrams and TFA and TROS, you'll see a lot of very similar failings of penmanship.

Strength in the Force tends to be overwhelmingly not inherited. Pretty much only Luke Skywalker inherited his Force stuff in the first 6 films (Leia never showed she had any). Kenobi, Palpatine, Windu, Dooku... no Force dynasties there. Ki-Adi-Mundi had a bunch of kids in Legends, but they weren't Force-sensitive.

And Luke had pretty much zero training compared to even a Youngling who hadn't made it to Padawan yet. Luke completely 'intuited' Move, without even knowing that was a thing you can do with the force. Rey at least knew all about that from hearing about the legend of Luke Skywalker (although she clearly was more a Han Solo fan growing up).

I already answered that. The Mandalorian made good story a priority. The Sequel trilogy made diversity and the force is female a priority. When you dont make telling a good story the priority you tend to get bad story. 

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4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I already answered that. The Mandalorian made good story a priority. The Sequel trilogy made diversity and the force is female a priority. When you dont make telling a good story the priority you tend to get bad story. 

No, you didn't really answer it. 

All writers make telling a great story their priority. It's just that some writers aren't cut out to be writers, and that has got nothing to do with their politics.

The flaws of TFA and TROS are the flaws of Lost and Alias and Fringe. Politics has got nothing to do with it. I mean, do you seriously, honestly believe that somebody made the conscious decision to make Rey more powerful than male Force-users? That this is not just the well-establised trait of JJ Abrams not caring about the rules of the universe he's writing in, even when they are rules he made himself?

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