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Train Thoughts: Will FFG let Fenn/Boba run its course? Or do an Upsilon fix?

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The issue with tripsilons was the type of experience they presented to new players by having 3, fully tokened, 16 hp, 4 red bulldozers in their face and very likely killing the ship of the tripsilon player's choice on turn 1 regardless of how the tripsilon's opponent deployed. That was something that both a large portion of the community and FFG did not want to have new players deal with.

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Boba/Fenn is no where near the level of NPE that Tripsilon was. It created a unique gameplay experience that made fun for one. Boba/Fenn is at least puzzle that can be figured out, whereas there was nothing to do to stop two double modded 4-dice attack (with reinforce and evade on defense) from stepping on your front porch after the first round of movement. Boba/Fenn should see some changes, no doubt. Perhaps point changes to Slave 1 or swapping Slave 1 or Maul out of hyperspace, but currently, I don't see the situation as that drastic. 

Quote

Also why am I always bail organa. I don’t wanna die by exploding planet. Way too mundane. 

AN ENITRE PLANET EXPLODES. Blail: Most unimpressive.

4 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

My main thought is make Slave 1 a variable cost based on initiative. Leave the rest alone. Boba Fenn loses some bid but still playable.

This is a great suggestion. Also, give Fangs a mod slot. Temp them into spending more points.

27 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Boba Fett is 5 pts too cheap naked and has been for a year. Same goes for Kylo.

Fight me.

*puts up dukes* Both feel about where they should be. The only reason Boba is seeing playtime is that so many of his predators are missing. I imagine he is less dominant in Extended. Initiative scaling Slave 1 will either up his cost or not make the title autoinclude.

However, Kylo still isn't making waves, and as much as I hate chasing that boy down, he's a power piece that I don't think needs adjustment just yet. This Store Champs season may prove me wrong, we'll have to see how it plays out.

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It's popular, especially in hyperspace, as a known good list, in a meta where people are still feeling out what works. It'll get phased out naturally as people figure out the new optimal lists, and how to defeat it regularly. It's not OP, and it's not performing anywhere near how old-points republic jedi or imperial aces were, or CIS swarms either before or after.

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11 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I imagine he is less dominant in Extended.

If only we had any data 🤔

Every time I ran my statistical analysis, he was over performing by about 5 points, even after the nerf. He deserves to be among the most expensive pilots in the game, right with Han, Dash, RAC, Rexler, etc.

Of course, the last update basically threw all that work out the window. The benchmark has definitely shifted. Maybe my criticism is no longer valid.

14 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Kylo still isn't making waves, and as much as I hate chasing that boy down, he's a power piece that I don't think needs adjustment just yet.

He’s just so consistent at everything. He’s not all that efficient at any one thing, but he’s just extremely reliable at everything: positioning, offense, defense, and his actions save from round to round better than most.

that said, new benchmarks and huge meta shift mean maybe not so much anymore. Almost like buffing generics really does nerf aces... almost.

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Just a thought: what would happen if Boba/Fenn would cost, let's say, 194-198? Or even 200?

I think that this wouldn't hurt Boba/Fenn (much) against (CIS) swarms, simply due to the higher initiative.

But: what other list ideas might then be possible? Wouldn't there be more diversity in the lists? Isn't it Boba/Fenn that is holding Hyperspace back right now?

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49 minutes ago, Laniakean_Guy said:

Just a thought: what would happen if Boba/Fenn would cost, let's say, 194-198? Or even 200?

I think that this wouldn't hurt Boba/Fenn (much) against (CIS) swarms, simply due to the higher initiative.

But: what other list ideas might then be possible? Wouldn't there be more diversity in the lists? Isn't it Boba/Fenn that is holding Hyperspace back right now?

I think to get Boba/Fenn to that points total you would price them out of other lists. 

Only other lists that would benefit are Ace lists as they have same initiative and also care about the bid and people can go back to complaining about aces instead.

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51 minutes ago, Laniakean_Guy said:

Just a thought: what would happen if Boba/Fenn would cost, let's say, 194-198? Or even 200?

I think that this wouldn't hurt Boba/Fenn (much) against (CIS) swarms, simply due to the higher initiative.

But: what other list ideas might then be possible? Wouldn't there be more diversity in the lists? Isn't it Boba/Fenn that is holding Hyperspace back right now?

Both of them are already really expensive. If you up the current costs of the builds 10+ points, you make the pieces unplayable outside of Boba/Fenn.

The only Archetype I believe Boba/Fenn is keeping down is 3 ship aces. But CIS is doing the same thing anyways.

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I doubt they will respond before the next point change.  3 of the factions have new ships in a month (hopefully) and they could shake things up a bit.

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4 hours ago, DR4CO said:

No one's talking about losing the synergy.

We're just talking about making people pay a more appropriate price for it.

What I meant by "perfect synergy" was that Boba gets the best benefit from Slave-1 because he's the highest initiative that can have it, and it isn't initiative scaled. Take that away and it'll still be synergistic but not as ideal as it is now. Slave-1 being such a no-brainer on Boba because of the current costing is highly thematic.

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9 minutes ago, Dasharr said:

What I meant by "perfect synergy" was that Boba gets the best benefit from Slave-1 because he's the highest initiative that can have it, and it isn't initiative scaled. Take that away and it'll still be synergistic but not as ideal as it is now. Slave-1 being such a no-brainer on Boba because of the current costing is highly thematic.

Thematic =/= Balance.

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24 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Darth Vader easily soloing 25 X-Wings is also highly thematic.

But would be disastrous for the game.

I already said in my first post in the thread that it might be for the best to change the costing despite the thematic loss. I'm not a theme-before-gameplay X-Winger. I'm just not a theme-is-irrelevant X-Winger either.

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2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

He deserves to be among the most expensive pilots in the game, right with Han, Dash, RAC, Rexler, etc.

Agreed. Good Han is 80, Dash is 91, RAC is 76, and Rex is 81. At 85, Boba is more expensive than most of those pilots.  I would not argue about Boba + all the tools should not go up. Slave 1 should go up to make it at least a choice. Dropping down a point on the title seemed odd in the first place as the 2 point title was already a steal.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

If only we had any data 🤔

Every time I ran my statistical analysis, he was over performing by about 5 points, even after the nerf. He deserves to be among the most expensive pilots in the game, right with Han, Dash, RAC, Rexler, etc.

Of course, the last update basically threw all that work out the window. The benchmark has definitely shifted. Maybe my criticism is no longer valid.

He’s just so consistent at everything. He’s not all that efficient at any one thing, but he’s just extremely reliable at everything: positioning, offense, defense, and his actions save from round to round better than most.

that said, new benchmarks and huge meta shift mean maybe not so much anymore. Almost like buffing generics really does nerf aces... almost.

Boba with slave 1? or Boba naked chassis (okay eww)? 

In my opinion the seriously odious part is the Slave 1 being so cheap. That should go up. I could see that going up 5 points being reasonable. I don't know if Boba pilot really needs to go higher. It IS good, but Boba can still die to R2 and R3 shots rather well. (I come in from many different angles, making all R1 difficult until 1-2 turns later in the game). I surmise scaling by initiative will be fine, as I think Salve 1 title on Koshka is going to be less powerful than Boba. 

Some of the other titles and options probably could come down from being super nerfed. 

 

The one other problem is this: Boba is not soooooper overpowered as long as Maul is the only upgrade/crew option for giving Boba force/free-focus+other-actions/double mods. We assume the rerolls from being R1 require a Boost (otherwise, one should fly to force Boba to spend his action doing that). The rerolls I saw ended up with a lot of focuses also, allowing some damage through at R1 from the whole enemy list, which seems about right for a piece that costs like 110 points. If boba somehow could get 2 force points, I would go straight for nerf hammer. In a sense, I think that the original Boba with Marauder Han is actually probably the better build (ignoring points). 

Edited by Blail Blerg

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Posted (edited)

I don't think Boba and either of his wingmates have reached Triple Upsilon levels (Although I will stand by my long held opinion that Boba Fett should have had 2 recurring charges instead of an always on ability. But, FFG has been gunshy on errata this time around). My instinct is to make Slave I scale with initiative and drop Maul from Hyperspace. His presence is actually really weird, since no ship he comes with is in hyperspace. It just feels weird. K2-S0 is in the same boat, but they both feel odd where they are, honestly.

Edited by Squark

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Slave 1 could be 3, without just dying. 

Outside of HS, all of Boba is fine. What we're seeing is a format imbalance. 

Because Slave 1. 3pt is a more reasonable price, it would remain a solid choice for any pilot. But it would not change the power level of Boba in HS at all.

As said, Boba is so expensive already. He is super good, he'll carry whatever points you can spare for him. So it doesn't matter how much you put this or that up, unless you make most of it useless. He'd take Slave 1 at 5, no one else would.

I'm not sure he is a problem, but remove Slave 1 from HS and it will solve whatever problem you have. He'll still be pretty good, but he'll be playing the same game everyone else is.

Boba players in HS would drop off fast, if the title wasn't available.

Unless you want to kill him in Extended?

The fashion will change anyway. It's fine. It's all fine.....

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7 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

The issue with tripsilons was the type of experience they presented to new players by having 3, fully tokened, 16 hp, 4 red bulldozers in their face and very likely killing the ship of the tripsilon player's choice on turn 1 regardless of how the tripsilon's opponent deployed. That was something that both a large portion of the community and FFG did not want to have new players deal with.

*raises hand*

I’m confused. We’re talking about 3 Upsilons like you can’t take that... but at 58 points each, you totally can. Three Starkillers comes out at 174, leaving ample room for upgrades, or even a cheap 4th ship.

What am I missing?

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1 minute ago, CoffeeMinion said:

*raises hand*

I’m confused. We’re talking about 3 Upsilons like you can’t take that... but at 58 points each, you totally can. Three Starkillers comes out at 174, leaving ample room for upgrades, or even a cheap 4th ship.

What am I missing?

Hoo boy.....

 

Dormitz. Hyperspace Tracking. Stuff. Tavson?!

3 Ups with ALL the tokens, 2 deployed near the halfway line.

At I6.

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50 minutes ago, CoffeeMinion said:

*raises hand*

I’m confused. We’re talking about 3 Upsilons like you can’t take that... but at 58 points each, you totally can. Three Starkillers comes out at 174, leaving ample room for upgrades, or even a cheap 4th ship.

What am I missing?

As @Cuz05 mentions, Tripsilons was a very specific architype centered on using Dormitz in addition to 3 copies (including the one on Dormitz) of Hyperspace Tracking Data that enabled the squad to setup after most lists with 2/3rds of the list halfway across the board. Only I6 with bid set up after. It got nerfed to **** in the only emergency points change to date.

46 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Hoo boy.....

 

Dormitz. Hyperspace Tracking. Stuff. Tavson?!

3 Ups with ALL the tokens, 2 deployed near the halfway line.

At I6.

Tavson was one option. 2 of the generics + Dormitz was also used.

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12 hours ago, Smikies02 said:

Both of them are already really expensive. If you up the current costs of the builds 10+ points, you make the pieces unplayable outside of Boba/Fenn.

The only Archetype I believe Boba/Fenn is keeping down is 3 ship aces. But CIS is doing the same thing anyways.

Is anything doing well against both CIS swarms and Fenn/Boba right now? They seem to be everywhere atm

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3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Why is Boba Fenn good vs 3 aces? is it also good vs 2 aces? 

Boba Fenn can work very well against 3 aces, as you are almost guaranteed having a bid, and so can move with better information. Fenn will move after their i6 pilots, Boba after their i5s. Slave 1 title allows Boba to avoid blocks, plunge into range one, or turn away from a developing killbox. Fenn can absolutely murder his chosen target should he get into range one of it, and can reliably shrug off incoming attacks if he can avoid being caught at range two. Fenn's greatest weakness is weight of fire, which a three-ace list can struggle to apply.

Against a 2 ace list, it depends. There aren't many lists like that out there.

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39 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

Boba Fenn can work very well against 3 aces, as you are almost guaranteed having a bid, and so can move with better information. Fenn will move after their i6 pilots, Boba after their i5s. Slave 1 title allows Boba to avoid blocks, plunge into range one, or turn away from a developing killbox. Fenn can absolutely murder his chosen target should he get into range one of it, and can reliably shrug off incoming attacks if he can avoid being caught at range two. Fenn's greatest weakness is weight of fire, which a three-ace list can struggle to apply.

Against a 2 ace list, it depends. There aren't many lists like that out there.

Ok. What’s generally the list and build of boba fenn? 

And sorry meant 2 aces and filler. 

Last I heard boba had trouble with i6 that moved after him. 

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