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Tri3

Phase 2 Clone Troopers - Not Impressed

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I put together 2 boxes of the new Phase 2 Clone troopers and I am not at all impressed with the hard plastic vs soft plastic and instead prefer the soft for many reasons.

1. The hard plastic takes much longer to assemble the figures.

2. The hard plastic is basically static poses with no real adjustably or pose options.  Example is the heavy gunner.  You have to use the kneeling pose, because the heavy gun doesn't work on the other figures the way they are designed.

3. You don't get many extra options except head swaps.  

4. The cost has gone up significantly compared to the base unit.

5. I like the feel of the softer plastic figures during game play.  They are a bit heavier, so just feel better.

6. Comparing the Phase 2 to my Phase 1, there is no real assertable difference in quality or detail.

 



 

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Posted (edited)

Besides the B1s I didn’t think there was much of a reason to go to hard plastic (maybe light sabers). I’m sure it’s cheaper for them after the initial mold investment though, and they can charge 50% more and claim styrene is higher quality... things like Wookiee and taun tauns would be terrible in styrene.

Edited by NeverTellMeTheOdds

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5 minutes ago, Tri3 said:

1. The hard plastic takes much longer to assemble the figures.

 

I totally agree. Your first point was the big one for me. It took me just as long to build my PIIs as it did my Saber Tank. I get the need for the hard plastic for droids, but not a fan of everything going to the hard plastic.

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Posted (edited)

Not playing Clones, but I'd be very curious to see some comparison and sprue pictures.

GW has created a generation of players who are pretty zealous when it comes to the superiority of HIPS.  It's definitely a good material, and GW is unquestionably the master of using it, but its got some significant downsides that tend to get overlooked.

Edited by LunarSol

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I didn't take pictures, but one thing that was really odd was how you snap the body parts together.  The peg hole was really large, so the peg wouldn't fit in snug to allow you to test out the fitting before glueing.  I don't know why they made the hole so large.

There were other choices made like a 3 part gun setup, that seemed better suited for 2 parts vs 3.  The hand pegs were almost non existent, so the hands really didn't snap into place.  

When you look at FFG's other Star Wars offerings, the name of the game is pre-built and pre painted.  This allows a gamer to simply purchase the unit or whatever they want and can start playing right away.  Although they didn't go that route with legion, it was still really easy to put stuff together and play.  Now it has become a process. 

Most people I play with don't have painted figures, so they aren't really in the hobby aspect by what I am seeing.  They only want to play the game and could care less about building and painting figures.

 

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1 hour ago, Tri3 said:

I put together 2 boxes of the new Phase 2 Clone troopers and I am not at all impressed with the hard plastic vs soft plastic and instead prefer the soft for many reasons.

1. The hard plastic takes much longer to assemble the figures.

2. The hard plastic is basically static poses with no real adjustably or pose options.  Example is the heavy gunner.  You have to use the kneeling pose, because the heavy gun doesn't work on the other figures the way they are designed.

3. You don't get many extra options except head swaps.  

4. The cost has gone up significantly compared to the base unit.

5. I like the feel of the softer plastic figures during game play.  They are a bit heavier, so just feel better.

6. Comparing the Phase 2 to my Phase 1, there is no real assertable difference in quality or detail.

 



 

I agree with all of these points. The difference between the phase one upgrade pack and these phase twos is small, it is there but it isn't worth the price hike and the lack of posablity with the P2s compared to the P1s is really bad. I have 6 P1s and they are mostly all separate poses while the the phase 2s are all basically going to be the same. The lack of customization is crazy to me. The added time to essentially build the same thing over and over with little to no room for creativity is frustrating. 

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5 minutes ago, Tirion said:

I agree with all of these points. The difference between the phase one upgrade pack and these phase twos is small, it is there but it isn't worth the price hike and the lack of posablity with the P2s compared to the P1s is really bad. I have 6 P1s and they are mostly all separate poses while the the phase 2s are all basically going to be the same. The lack of customization is crazy to me. The added time to essentially build the same thing over and over with little to no room for creativity is frustrating. 

i found the same thing about the battle droids, the fact that the hands are molded to the blasters just allows you to either have the pointing up or down and having their heads looking in different directions. there really is little customisation .

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10 minutes ago, Darth evil said:

i found the same thing about the battle droids, the fact that the hands are molded to the blasters just allows you to either have the pointing up or down and having their heads looking in different directions. there really is little customisation .

You can mix and match sets of legs with sets of arms for more variation. Between that and minor pose variations when assembling, you can easily avoid any being identical. 

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37 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

You can mix and match sets of legs with sets of arms for more variation. Between that and minor pose variations when assembling, you can easily avoid any being identical. 

are you talking droids or phase 2s?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Tri3 said:

I put together 2 boxes of the new Phase 2 Clone troopers and I am not at all impressed with the hard plastic vs soft plastic and instead prefer the soft for many reasons.

1. The hard plastic takes much longer to assemble the figures.

Personally, I find this surprising. I have typically found miniatures that require super glue take longer than those that allow for plastic glue, since the super glue takes longer to set. I suppose I'll find out next week when I finally get a chance to build my Phase 2s and Sabre tank.

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2. The hard plastic is basically static poses with no real adjustably or pose options.  Example is the heavy gunner.  You have to use the kneeling pose, because the heavy gun doesn't work on the other figures the way they are designed.

Which is basically the same as the old soft plastic (pre-Phase 1 with the round sockets). I'll have to experiment a bit, but I think an arm swap for the Z-6 might be possible with some cutting and green stuff work. If not, I can probably figure something out by kit bashing the Phase 2s and the spare Phase 1s I have. 

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3. You don't get many extra options except head swaps. 

To be fair, this is still more options than we had with the soft plastics. Not as many as there could be of course, but it is still progress. Also I find it easier to customize hard plastic, since I find plastic glue often holds small pieces on better. 

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4. The cost has gone up significantly compared to the base unit.

While many people are pointing to the change in material as a  reason for this (I have as well) it could equally be that the new kits were always going to cost more, but the change in materials gave FFG/Asmodee an excuse. As far as I'm aware, there has not been an official answer to the reason for the price change. Complaining about the price but still buying the product is unlikely to change anything, companies will generally charge whatever price doesn't hurt their overall profits. It could also be that an increase in the license cost necessitated the price change. We don't actually know, we can only speculate. 

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5. I like the feel of the softer plastic figures during game play.  They are a bit heavier, so just feel better.

One way to make the miniatures "feel" heavier is to glue washers under the base. I magnetize my Legion minis for transport, and the extra weight on the underside does make them feel "sturdier" on the table. 

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6. Comparing the Phase 2 to my Phase 1, there is no real assertable difference in quality or detail.

Personally, I don't see any mold lines on my Phase 2s, whereas I had quite a few to clean off of the Phase 1s. I'll have to look again side by side, but I think the edges might be a touch sharper. I also had problems with the soft plastic "nubs" having lots of waste plastic still on them, which had to be trimmed off before the parts would fit together.

8 hours ago, Tri3 said:

I didn't take pictures, but one thing that was really odd was how you snap the body parts together.  The peg hole was really large, so the peg wouldn't fit in snug to allow you to test out the fitting before glueing.  I don't know why they made the hole so large.

There were other choices made like a 3 part gun setup, that seemed better suited for 2 parts vs 3.  The hand pegs were almost non existent, so the hands really didn't snap into place.  

When you look at FFG's other Star Wars offerings, the name of the game is pre-built and pre painted.  This allows a gamer to simply purchase the unit or whatever they want and can start playing right away.  Although they didn't go that route with legion, it was still really easy to put stuff together and play.  Now it has become a process. 

Most people I play with don't have painted figures, so they aren't really in the hobby aspect by what I am seeing.  They only want to play the game and could care less about building and painting figures.

 

That sort of system if fairly common in my experience with single pose plastics. Making the peg hole larger than the actual peg means that you can easily dry fit and then take the pieces apart. I've had a few of the "push fit" GW models where the peg was too large for the hole, making it very difficult to assemble the models without leaving a gap. The first one I put together I almost damaged trying to take the two halves apart after dry fitting. So personally, I prefer the peg to be smaller than the hole for miniatures.

The pre-built, pre-painted miniatures are fine for ships, but I've seen what those kind of models look like for infantry, and vastly prefer to assemble them myself.  The painting on faces especially tends to be... not good. Also the poses would be even more static. A Song of Ice and Fire has pre-built minis, but each unit only has 3 poses, and in some cases aren't assembled well. Personally, I'd like for Armada and X-wing to also be miniature kits, but what exists is fine.

Please don't take any of my comments the wrong way. I am just trying to offer you suggestions to help work with what has been decided is the current state of Legion minis.

 

Personally, I find it funny how many complaints there are about the hard plastic given how many people harped on Legion for being soft plastic initially. Some of that was people assuming hard plastic would mean complete customization, but I assumed the license would lead FFG to doing push fit style single pose miniatures. One small upside, I haven't heard about as many mispacks from the hard plastic kits as I did the soft plastics.

Edited by Caimheul1313

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24 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I've had a few of the "push fit" GW models where the peg was too large for the hole, making it very difficult to assemble the models without leaving a gap.

I have actually had this issue with several soft plastic Legion kits, including some recent ones like Dooku (he was actually the worst one I've had in that regard). 

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3 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

I have actually had this issue with several soft plastic Legion kits, including some recent ones like Dooku (he was actually the worst one I've had in that regard). 

Upon reflection, I remember having to shave down quite a few of the soft plastic nubs on the Rebels since they wouldn't fit in the socket otherwise.

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Just put together C3P0 and IMO that is a much better model.  The arms in the head have nice fitting joins, so realistically you only have to glue the legs and the body.  The arms and head, at least right now, fit very snug and it allows you to pose them however you want.

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In the last week I have assembled 2 boxes of Phase 1 upgrades and Phase 2s. For actual model quality and assembly experience, the Phase 2s beat them hands down, no question. I utterly despise working with soft plastic since I am meticulous about cleaning mold lines and equally hate working with superglue and losing my finger prints. Plastic glue, clippers, sprues and a bit of patience suit me to the ground every time.

I will agree with the poseability complaint though, particularly the Z6 trooper. It was acknowledged by the staff on the live stream that FFG didn't do a great job with the poseability on the Phase 2s so I will get them a bit of credit for acknowledging it at leasts. I like the ability to make the mortar trooper in two very different configurations but the obligatory kneeling Z6 is a thumbs down for me.

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15 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

I will agree with the poseability complaint though, particularly the Z6 trooper. It was acknowledged by the staff on the live stream that FFG didn't do a great job with the poseability on the Phase 2s so I will get them a bit of credit for acknowledging it at leasts. I like the ability to make the mortar trooper in two very different configurations but the obligatory kneeling Z6 is a thumbs down for me.

It's especially egregious to me because they included the option of giving the kneeling trooper a standard blaster instead of the Z-6, which would mean you wouldn't have ANY Z-6 troopers built.... 🙄

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5 hours ago, Lochlan said:

I have actually had this issue with several soft plastic Legion kits, including some recent ones like Dooku (he was actually the worst one I've had in that regard). 

This is a lot easier to resolve with hard plastic than with soft plastic. You can melt the connection peg on hard plastic with plastic glue, while on soft plastic you have to cut, or sand or scrape off a lot of the connection peg material. 

 

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1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

It's especially egregious to me because they included the option of giving the kneeling trooper a standard blaster instead of the Z-6, which would mean you wouldn't have ANY Z-6 troopers built.... 🙄

I actually like the look of the kneeling regular trooper. I have always thought the Z6 is more a "stand and deliver" weapon so I really like how the Phase 1 is posed.

But yeah, the choice is between a nice looking grunt or a heavy weapon pose, I need to take the heavy option. It is a shame.

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Got mine last week, not built yet, but already I can tell the quality looks much better. Though I agree, it is a bit sucky that customisation is limited, I'll happily trade that to prevent hours of soft plastic mold line scraping.

First thing I checked was the helmet molds, little to no horrible cast lines to smooth out! (Absolutely despised having to sort them out on my P1 helmets - i.e. almost every helmet)

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I have used Gorilla Glue for both the Phase 1 and phase 2 models without any issue and without having to clean the models.

IMO for the extra money, they should have included an extra spruce that could have had various options for the figures including misc terrain to put on the base , maybe a few objective token pieces or something. 

To me it feels really rushed with not much planning when it comes to building out the unit.

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16 minutes ago, Tri3 said:

I have used Gorilla Glue for both the Phase 1 and phase 2 models without any issue and without having to clean the models.

IMO for the extra money, they should have included an extra spruce that could have had various options for the figures including misc terrain to put on the base , maybe a few objective token pieces or something. 

To me it feels really rushed with not much planning when it comes to building out the unit.

Did you use Gorilla Glue, or Gorilla Glue brand superglue? Gorilla Glue is a wood glue that is amber colored and swells severely. I ruined some X-Wing ships when trying to magnetize them because someone recommended Gorilla Glue instead of Gorilla Glue brand superglue and I actually trusted that they knew what they were talking about. I assume there's no way you used actual Gorilla Glue since the models would look they they were horrifically mutated. Gorilla Glue even comes in little metal tubes like superglue, sometimes right next to the actual GG branded superglue.

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11 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Personally, I'd like for Armada and X-wing to also be miniature kits, but what exists is fine.

O please no. I play armada as well and part of the draw for me is that fact that I dont have to assemble or paint those models, makes it easier to keep caught up on everything.

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31 minutes ago, lunitic501 said:

O please no. I play armada as well and part of the draw for me is that fact that I dont have to assemble or paint those models, makes it easier to keep caught up on everything.

My favourite aspect of the hobby side of things happens to be conversion/assembly and Armada never quite took off at my FLGS, so the more enjoyment I could get out of the models solo the better for me. There is something nice about being able to field an assembled and painted fleet out of the box though, I will admit.

1 hour ago, Tri3 said:

I have used Gorilla Glue for both the Phase 1 and phase 2 models without any issue and without having to clean the models.

IMO for the extra money, they should have included an extra spruce that could have had various options for the figures including misc terrain to put on the base , maybe a few objective token pieces or something. 

To me it feels really rushed with not much planning when it comes to building out the unit.

I had obvious mold lines on all of my Phase 1 helmets and torsos (down each leg) that I had to clean prior to assembly. 

Super glue will work on either model, but one of the advantages for assembly of (most) hard plastic models is the ability to use plastic glue. The plastic glue chemically welds the parts together, and is tacky so will help hold the pieces in place, without drying so hard you can't reposition/fix something that is wrong. I've had to hold pieces assembled with super glue far longer than I do with plastic glue, and had countless pieces glue to my fingers rather than the rest of the model.

Objective tokens are their own, seperate kit, so FFG was never going to provide those since it would hurt sales of the objective kit.

There really aren't too many extra option FFG could have provided and still only put the correct number of bodies into the box for the unit. I don't need a Liefeld number of pouches, and any I want to add I am fortunate to be able to source them from my WW2 bits bin, but the models don't need those, we don't see many generic clone troopers with extra kit. I agree that the kit would be a better deal with more parts, but that's always true. Any extra parts cut into the extra profits Asmodee is trying to make though. At least we are provided with enough bodies to field all the options in the box, the strike team special forces boxes did not have to include an extra "standard" infantry model, they could have just made you choose between fielding a full unit or a strike team out of a single box. 

As I said before, we don't know the actual reasoning behind the change in pricing, it could have nothing to do with the change in material. B1s were still priced at $25 USD MSRP, admittedly that could have just been to avoid charging more for the droid's first corps unit than the Clone's. The price change happened to coincide with the complete switch to hard plastic, but it could just as easily have had to do with a renegotiated license or Asmodee's parent corporation deciding to raise the prices to make the company more attractive to potential buyers.

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