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robertpolson

Can I play in OP with shorter bases?

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In truth, I'm not at all an exact sculpt guy.  If you've got a solid proxy, go for it.  One of my favorite games I tried with some print out rules and a pack of Oreos to proxy models with.  I just keep hearing the expectation that IA models should work in Legion and while I was on that boat, I found practically speaking, that game is so small that the models I have just don't amount to enough in Legion to be a very worthwhile endeavor.

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On 3/2/2020 at 8:10 AM, robertpolson said:

I am getting a few Legion miniatures for Star Wars Imperial Assault. However, I am using shorter 25mm bases that match IA figures height. Does this mean that if one day I will bring my Legion miniatures to an organized play event, I will be disqualified? 

It would be tricky and challenging for some minis, but you could magnetize them to each base.

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Yikes what a thread! So much angst. 

 

if you do ever wish to give legion a shot I would simply put your current bases on top of your legion bases. Use blue tack for non permanent. And don’t bother for casual games. It’s just 2mm diff.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, TylerTT said:

Yikes what a thread! So much angst. 

 

if you do ever wish to give legion a shot I would simply put your current bases on top of your legion bases. Use blue tack for non permanent. And don’t bother for casual games. It’s just 2mm diff.

Thank you for a friendly and useful response. 

I think that if I ever get to play Legion, it will be at home. The chances of me going to an OP event are very slim due to priority with IA and time constraints. Thus, the fact that my minis will be on 25mm makes no difference.

I thought about possible solutions for the bases and here are two ideas that I came up with.

1. Get 25mm plastic bases with space underneath that can be used for magnets. Glue a magnet to the centre of the 25mm base and Legion base. However, from my understanding Legion uses LOS that is measured from the top of the figure. Thus putting a 25mm base on top of a Legion base greatly increases the height of the bases.

2. Possibly a simple and elegant solution. Use either 24mm or 25mm coin capsules. Simply place the 25mm base inside the capsule that should increase the height and width of the base.

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Edited by robertpolson

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Posted (edited)

I've been thinking of using thinner Warlord Games bases for my troops rather than the chunky FFG ones, because about half of the time I will be using some of my small Legion collection along side other 28mm scale figures in a skirmish game.  The Warlord games bases are about as thin as a US Quarter, and are within millimeters of the diameter of a Legion base.

I already have a good reason for my Clones to be larger than the 28mm forces they will be fighting against, but I have done it before with some Wild West Exodus models which are the same scale as Legion, and it works well to make an optical illusion to help them appear closer to the size of the slightly smaller scaled minis (because the 28mm minis are on thicker bases like GW uses)

This way I get the best of both worlds, especially when I use my Legion models in local official Legion games sometime in the future.

Edited by AegisGrimm

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3 hours ago, robertpolson said:

However, from my understanding Legion uses LOS that is measured from the top of the figure. Thus putting a 25mm base on top of a Legion base greatly increases the height of the bases.

This is actually going to be changing soon, with FFG preparing to release new LOS rules that use standardized unit profile templates, so stacking the bases would be a perfectly fine solution. 

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40 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

This is actually going to be changing soon, with FFG preparing to release new LOS rules that use standardized unit profile templates, so stacking the bases would be a perfectly fine solution. 

The minor issue being "soon" has no known deadline (unless something has been announced that I missed).

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1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

The minor issue being "soon" has no known deadline (unless something has been announced that I missed).

From what Luke Eddy said about it in his recent interview on Notorious Scoundrels, it sounds like it's more or less ready. They are probably waiting till after Worlds to avoid any confusion. 

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3 hours ago, Lochlan said:

This is actually going to be changing soon, with FFG preparing to release new LOS rules that use standardized unit profile templates, so stacking the bases would be a perfectly fine solution. 

Can you please explain what this means for someone who has never played a game like this?

would it be more acceptable to play with a 25mm base and 1mm shorter figure?

I’m new to this but when I look at the gameplay videos of Legion, peoples place their figure close to the template. I’m having a hard time seeing how 2mm makes a difference.  

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, robertpolson said:

Can you please explain what this means for someone who has never played a game like this?

would it be more acceptable to play with a 25mm base and 1mm shorter figure?

I’m new to this but when I look at the gameplay videos of Legion, peoples place their figure close to the template. I’m having a hard time seeing how 2mm makes a difference.  

The movement templates fit around the bases snugly, and all measurements are from front to back for movement. So by changing the diameter of the base, you change how far your miniature can move (a detriment to you of course).

But, all range measurements are all from base to base, so if the base is smaller the miniature might be out of range, whereas a miniature that is on the "correct" base would be in range. Additionally, miniatures on a smaller base can be placed more easily in narrow spots. Last night I watched a game where control of an objective came down to who could get more unit leaders into base contact. A character was withdrawing from combat in order to try to get into base contact, and the fit was very tight with the proper base. If the base had been smaller, the player would have had an easier time fitting that extra unit leader into base contact, which would fall under "modeling for advantage." 

Line of Sight templates are a different matter, unrelated to those sort of measurements. Rather than use your mini's physical model to determine if it is visible (which includes protruding weapons), templates will be introduced that will be placed behind the miniature purely for determining LoS. This will mean that miniatures on smaller bases could be mounted on a "standard" Legion base without causing a change in LoS profile, since the actual model positioning doesn't matter. This will mean that crouching models won't be able to completely hide themselves behind terrain that would expose a standing model.  

Edited by Caimheul1313

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12 minutes ago, robertpolson said:

Can you please explain what this means for someone who has never played a game like this?

would it be more acceptable to play with a 25mm base and 1mm shorter figure?

I’m new to this but when I look at the gameplay videos of Legion, peoples place their figure close to the template. I’m having a hard time seeing how 2mm makes a difference.  

I don't think the silhouette is that big of a deal. When it comes to movement, the template is placed snugly against the base, which it is designed to fit perfectly against. I agree that 2mm might not seem like much, but I think it's more that they have to have a standard and stick to it to prevent abuse. Rarely would an opponent have an issue playing against you in a casual game, but you can't expect to be able to play in an official event with bases that are prohibited especially when the correct bases were provided and you chose not to use them. Again, the best thing to do would be to base everything on Legion bases, since the bases don't matter for IA.

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5 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

Rarely would an opponent have an issue playing against you in a casual game, but you can't expect to be able to play in an official event with bases that are prohibited especially when the correct bases were provided and you chose not to use them.

Absolutely, the key part of the original question is "in op" for just this reason.

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A lot of the videos that I looked at show a very similar trend. When players attached a roller to the mini figure, the bump the figure a few mm. The same is true for placing the figure ahed of the ruler. This might be different from super competitive OP events but so far I see more fuss about those 2mm that it is in the actual gameplay. :)

I have no intention to play Legion. So far I am just getting the figure for IA conversion. I am also learning how "precise" to the mm miniature games are. 

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For us the player, sure that would be outstanding if a company would allow the use of models of an entirely different game so we don't have to spend more money when we supported a prior game they made. Yet, for them it would be terrible sales since could use totally different game models instead of buying the current game models; which if not making a reasonable profit then why even do it!? Think of your job if have one, if you worked for free would you still be there in all seriousness with some exceptions excluded!!??.  Beyond business, the models are different in many aspects to relate to the specific game it belongs to, and as time goes on in most cases yet not all the quality increases.   

If the deep concern and concealed question is why did you invest in a bunch of models & such for a game from a company, then that game ended while they made another new game where you need to buy literally everything new... welcome to nearly every game known to man, for that is the nature and the risk of each game with some exceptions from videogames, tabletop, card, board, roleplaying, etc... Best I could suggest is stay far away from franchise material for it is often finite.

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It makes me angry that my hoop and stick was not compatible as a hula hoop when that came out. JK

I get it, though. I have a bunch of the old West End models as well as quite a few of WOTCs. But companies have to innovate and sell new products.

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As mentioned earlier though Games Workshop are very well known for ensuring their licensee companies are not allowed to tread on their core territory , e.g. small unit combat games aka Warhammer Age of Sigmar and Warhammer 40k. So while FFG was running licensed product aka board games, card games and RIG they wouldn't be allowed to make a legion scale game. 

So Legion and runewars could not have been released any earlier than they could have. In fact FFG had problems with Hasbro over Imperial Assault because Hasbro have the Star Wars board game license but the lawsuit was dropped , with FFG arguing that it isn't specifically a board game, but a skirmish game. 

So when the warhammer license was up for renewal they started work on Runewars, and released this after , this could be on the same scale as warhammer (most similar small unit combat are based the same scale so they appear less wimpy when sat side by side). So by releasing Legion /Runewars they were going head to head with warhammer products. Notice that GW have also been releasing more board/card game content since FFG dropped the license.

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Even though I decided to just be lazy and use the correct bases for my Legion figures (because otherwise I would have to buy more Warlord bases as I only had enough left for a squad of clones). I hope I never have to play a game of Legion where 2 millimeters is a variation that has to be sweat over.  I have infinitely more things to have anxiety about before I worry about a measurement that is smaller than a table bump could cause.

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The big issue is, once the OP kit says "smaller bases are fine" it has to specify what diameter of bases are the new minimum and maximum, and then this conversation starts all over again "why can't I use bases smaller than that?" 

They have to draw the line somewhere and as I said before, it is incredibly common for organized play of games to require you use the size of base that is provided with the miniature. Some games even "require" it for casual play (caveat here being that players are welcome to do what they like so long as both parties agree, the company won't stop you). This is the case for Warhammer 40k, Warmahordes, Infinity, Kings of War, Marvel Crisis Protocol, Flames of War, Malifaux, and I'm sure quite a few other games that I don't know about. There are some games that just have you "pretend" the miniature is on the proper base (Age of Sigmar, Bolt Action) but this is significantly easier in systems with measurements and measuring tape rather than "measuring tools." I also know of at least one game with a base size minimum and maximum (SAGA), which partially comes from being a model agnostic historical game. They want to facilitate the greatest number of players without requiring the players to re-base their army from another system. I've seen similar things from skirmish games that are "model agnostic" (not intended to be used with a specific model line, generally small company skirmish rules).

Do bumps happen? Sure. But if I bump a model with the range stick, I know it's in range. If I bump a model with the movement template, I cost myself some distance, but I'm still making a legal move.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/7/2020 at 1:47 AM, Tokous said:

which if not making a reasonable profit then why even do it!?

Fantasy Flight can make a reasonable profit if I use my (Fantasy Flight) Imperial Assault and (Fantasy Flight) SW: Legion figures interchangeably. Plenty of companies remain profitable while making multiple rules systems that use figures from their various lines. For example, every 25mm GW game in the 90's made plenty of money because Warhammer Quest, Confrontation, Heroquest, Battlemasters, Necromunda, Space Hulk, Mordheim, Space Crusade, Warhammer Fantasy Battles, and Warhammer 40,000, were all advertising for each other with varying degrees of interchangeable figures.

Quote

If the deep concern and concealed question is why did you invest in a bunch of models & such for a game from a company, then that game ended while they made another new game where you need to buy literally everything new... welcome to nearly every game known to man,

Except historical games, and KoW, and Frostgrave, and many others. If anything, insisting on official minis for the official rules applies to a smaller number, of more highly visible, games. No one really went for that until after GW made a lot of money off it, then other companies (via ex-GW employees who went to work for WOTC et al) started imitating the official-stamp-of-officialness approach.

Using whatever figures "looked good" was the norm for non-GW gaming until about the year 2000.

On 3/7/2020 at 2:27 AM, Sharkbelly said:

But companies have to innovate and sell new products.

There's nothing innovative about reissuing someone else's decades-old stormtrooper design, in a sliiiightly different size.

 

I personally think this idea that, unless customers and employees are constantly inconvenienced, the economy will come crashing down, is one of the more dangerous one's we've got. I'm also really disturbed by how badly gamers crave the approval of publishers nowadays. To be fair it's nothing new. There were always people like that starting at least with "blackbook" AD&D, and those who would've chased the latest Technical Readouts for Battletech off a cliff. But it seems to me that this type of gamer used to be "that guy" in the gaming group, instead of being the 9/10th's majority. Maybe I was just too young (and poor!) to notice how many there really were back in the day though.

People need to take into account the difference between profitability and economic sustainability. Many small business are economically sustainable but don't turn much of a profit. In these cases the owner makes a good living, but the business itself doesn't produce much extra money beyond it's own needs, including the need of paying living wages to the owner. So, the question "Why do it if you can't make a profit?" in that case would be answered "To make a good living". Meanwhile, many highly profitable companies can be pursuing completely unsustainable business models, and employees, customers, and probably smaller investors, will be left hold the bag when it comes crashing down.

A corporation with an abstract profit motive is useful for society, for getting lots of people to work together (via cash investments to their diversified retirement accounts, for example) to make **** sure that necessities like hammers and shoes are always available in stores. I'm not convinced it's always the best model for gamer-games however. A lot of the best stuff to come along in gaming had little to no profit motive, particularly in its beginnings. It was made by people who dreamed of making a good living doing what they loved to do, even if they coulda made more money by doing something they found boring.

 

Edited by TauntaunScout

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