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Train Thoughts: How do devs make the TIE’s Whisper, /BA, Silencer different enough in game to make us buy each of them?

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Hi Ladies and Gents,

It’s stupid o’clock on a Monday and it’s time for, I wonder what the smart peeps are thinking. 

The FO are fast becoming my favourite faction now, and I was thinking, how are the devs going to make the TIE/whisper different in game from the /ba and Silencer? Pretty the FO can have 3 Interceptoresque chassis now, so what are they going to do? 

Surely not just bam, autothrusters and we’re done. How do they bring out the nature of the ship without breaking the game? Do they give the Knights of Ren some table time? 

So lovely people of the community, what’s your thoughts on what could be a very interesting ship for the FO. I personally am hoping for Kylo in an interceptor that can cloak. Super Natural Reflexes and cloaking wouldn’t be broken at all.... 😳😳😳

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Posted (edited)

So, we've got good differences between the /ba and the Silencer as is; both handle very differently, and the pilot abilities on offer are varied.

If we assume the Whisper is the Silencer-winged version, I could see it either having a title or ship ability to allow it some form of cloaking or jamming ability (to represent the e-war upgrades). As for pilots, I could see the Knights of Ren making up the roster alongside Kylo.

Further thoughts: I'd not necessarily have all the pilots be Force-sensitives, or have a ship ability which requires Force charges, as that eats into the Republic/Jedi identity. 

As for stats, I'd lean towards 3/3/3/2; slightly more durable than the /ba, but not as tough as the Silencer (which looks more substantial than the Whisper).

Edited by AceDogbert

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For starters, I think the key is that the basic (not Kylo-specific modified) TIE Whisper was similar to the TIE/sf, but with "increased stealth capabilities."  Maybe that's Cloak, but there's a case for Jam.  Once you've got one of those two actions, have a ship ability which relates to it, plus a different special-purpose gunner.  Given that the TIE/sf isn't often carrying the gunner, and but it still covers the midrange jouster ship well, you could have a lot "weaker" of an ability for the TIE/wi gunner, plus a lower price, and maybe it'll see more play.

Heck, part of me would rather just make the regular TIE/wi a config for the TIE/sf.

For Kylo... just a super-RZ-2?  Literally repeat Refined Gyrostablizers, 2-dice turret as the only primary, but add a cannon slot or two?  That'd feel OK in game terms, but who knows if LFL would approve.

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@theBitterFig: I outright disregarded the 'generic' Whisper when pondering what could be added. I honestly don't think it really stood out in the film, and in sharing a name with Kylo's fighter, something has to give.

I could see (another) First Order-only Tech upgrade card, limited to the /fo and /sf, to represent those fighters which had the updated cockpits. Not certain what it should offer, maybe starting the game cloaked? 

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2 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

@theBitterFig: I outright disregarded the 'generic' Whisper when pondering what could be added. I honestly don't think it really stood out in the film, and in sharing a name with Kylo's fighter, something has to give.

I could see (another) First Order-only Tech upgrade card, limited to the /fo and /sf, to represent those fighters which had the updated cockpits. Not certain what it should offer, maybe starting the game cloaked? 

OK, that works for me.

First, either a Tech or Tech/Config upgrade for the cockpit, and starting cloaked is a nice trick.  Maybe some extra thing, but having that as the core sounds good.  Maybe add something to rule out Special Forces Gunner, like "you cannot equip Gunner upgrades over X cost."

Next, a different gunner.  Hrm... "You may perform primary-weapon attacks while cloaked.  While you perform a primary attack, if you are cloaked, if your attack hits, your [hit]/[crit] results inflict Jam tokens instead of damage."

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They don't need to do anything to make ppl buy stuff.

Heck, they slap a different paint job on an already existing ship and people flock to the shops.   

 

Yeah, we are all a bunch of druggies.  😜 

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6 hours ago, Jayne Starlancer said:

••Whisper Configuration

Upgrade: Configuration

Restriction: TIE/sf or TIE/ba only

Action Bar: Lock 》Jam (red) and Jam 》Cloak (red)

Make it for the TIE/fo rather than the TIE/ba, and swap out the Jam> Red Cloak for a simple Red Cloak, and I think this could work nicely. It might even allow for dropping the two dot limitation, as you can no longer have a mass of white Jam actions on the board.

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Not to derail the conversation or anything, but can you guys give me a bit more 411 on this ship? I haven't seen the newest installment of "Disney on Star Wars" as I intend to await the out of theaters options... the d**n mouse has enough of my dough thanks.

...really need some tea, some of the good stuff. 

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It's mentioned to have a heavy weapons turret, so we it could have that same ship ability. Three die primary, with the front-back only turret being two die. Removing the double reposition will go a bit of the way to make it different than the Silencer or the Baron. Keep it fast with a strong dial, Silencer-esque, perhaps with S-loops instead of Tallons and the K-turn? Give it the three bank blue? Missile slot, Cannon slot, sensor slot, tech slot? Or drop the sensor for another tech slot? To differentiate from the SF, it only has rotate into red lock and rotate into red focus as its linked actions.But the fairly blue dial should make up for the red linked actions.

Basically, I'm smashing a Silencer and a SF together, creating a heavier but more costly RZ2A.

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27 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Not to derail the conversation or anything, but can you guys give me a bit more 411 on this ship? I haven't seen the newest installment of "Disney on Star Wars" as I intend to await the out of theaters options... the d**n mouse has enough of my dough thanks.

...really need some tea, some of the good stuff. 

In the new film, Kylo Ren is rocking out with a new fighter. It has the wings of the TIE Silencer, but a more traditional TIE cockpit module. I say more traditional, it has some visual differences, and appears to have the TIE/sf underslung turret going on.

At the same time, there are upgraded TIE/sf in the film as well, which are also using the same cockpit module. The visual dictionary states that these new cockpit modules provide stealth and e-war capabilities. To confuse matters, they are both referred to as the TIE Whisper, with Kylo's ships being referred to as a 'modified interceptor'.

32 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

It's mentioned to have a heavy weapons turret, so we it could have that same ship ability. Three die primary, with the front-back only turret being two die. Removing the double reposition will go a bit of the way to make it different than the Silencer or the Baron. Keep it fast with a strong dial, Silencer-esque, perhaps with S-loops instead of Tallons and the K-turn? Give it the three bank blue? Missile slot, Cannon slot, sensor slot, tech slot? Or drop the sensor for another tech slot? To differentiate from the SF, it only has rotate into red lock and rotate into red focus as its linked actions.But the fairly blue dial should make up for the red linked actions.

Basically, I'm smashing a Silencer and a SF together, creating a heavier but more costly RZ2A.

I'd not really thought about the turret module; I like the idea of limiting the rotate actions, maybe set it up the other way (so focus>red rotate and lock>red rotate) to save space on the card? I could also live with it being able to boost into the rotate, but let us be realistic. 90% of the time, the turret will be fixed into the rear position to provide arc coverage, unless there is a convincing reason (aside from firing ordnance) to have the arc facing forwards.

Smashing the Silencer and the SF together is entirely appropriate, it's just a matter of finding the right balance. 

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23 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

(so focus>red rotate and lock>red rotate)

u r smart :)

25 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

90% of the time, the turret will be fixed into the rear position to provide arc coverage, unless there is a convincing reason (aside from firing ordnance) to have the arc facing forwards.

I want there to be a way to make it so the 3 die attack is only 3 die with the turret forward without the use of SF Gunner (no gunner slot to help differentiate between the TIE/wi and the TIE/sf). Otherwise this is basically a punchier, more maneuverable, and dodgier SF. Perhaps the turret is a zero die turret that can still use the missile launching ability?

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44 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Not to derail the conversation or anything, but can you guys give me a bit more 411 on this ship? I haven't seen the newest installment of "Disney on Star Wars" as I intend to await the out of theaters options... the d**n mouse has enough of my dough thanks.

...really need some tea, some of the good stuff. 

tenor.gif?itemid=11488909

There are two TIE Whisper.

One has normal TIE wings, is described as something similar to a TIE/sf, but with increased "stealth capacity."  It has two front laser cannons, and a heavy weapons turret.

latest?cb=20191222230625

The other has Interceptor-style wings, is Kylo's modified version, and has four front laser cannons, and a dual heavy laser turret.  It is also described as having sensor-confusing equipment to give it some amount of stealth.

latest?cb=20191222230820

52 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Basically, I'm smashing a Silencer and a SF together, creating a heavier but more costly RZ2A.

I kinda just don't think a heavy RZ-2 can really exist in the game.  I guess it's not quite as nimble as a Silencer, but you can't really stick a turret on a ship with the heft and mobility of Silencer and have something remotely close to balanced.

Another stray thought I had: Bullseye weapon.  Yeah, that cribs off the Nantex, but I think it'd feel different enough.  Perhaps something like the RZ-2 ability, a 3 or even 4 dice bullseye (if you can deny the Range 1 bonus), and otherwise only a turret primary?  I feel like there has to be some incentive for the Kylo-style Whisper to have turret-front.  While the basic TIE/sf doesn't have much of a reason to normally put turret forwards, it does with missiles and Gunner.  Those... wouldn't work for Kylo if he had a 3-dice front-arc weapon.  A bullseye weapon does provide that incentive.

Bullseye also makes the ship feel very different from a Silencer.  The Silencer with better mobility and a full front arc weapon.  The Whisper with a rear turret and a bullseye, and while able to boost or roll, without access to linked actions beyond rotate.  That gives each of the two ships a niche, and will let players with different styles find their favorite.

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6 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

u r smart :)

😃 

7 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I want there to be a way to make it so the 3 die attack is only 3 die with the turret forward without the use of SF Gunner (no gunner slot to help differentiate between the TIE/wi and the TIE/sf). Otherwise this is basically a punchier, more maneuverable, and dodgier SF. Perhaps the turret is a zero die turret that can still use the missile launching ability?

Given the amount of gun the interceptor-Whisper has (technically more than the Silencer without the turret), it would feel silly to me to force it to have the turret facing forwards to give it a 3-dice attack. I like the idea of a 0-dice mobile arc while retaining the heavy weapon turret ability (also, it opens up the door for a range one, 1-dice butt arc attack, which is hilarious).

6 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I kinda just don't think a heavy RZ-2 can really exist in the game.  I guess it's not quite as nimble as a Silencer, but you can't really stick a turret on a ship with the heft and mobility of Silencer and have something remotely close to balanced.

Another stray thought I had: Bullseye weapon.  Yeah, that cribs off the Nantex, but I think it'd feel different enough.  Perhaps something like the RZ-2 ability, a 3 or even 4 dice bullseye (if you can deny the Range 1 bonus), and otherwise only a turret primary?  I feel like there has to be some incentive for the Kylo-style Whisper to have turret-front.  While the basic TIE/sf doesn't have much of a reason to normally put turret forwards, it does with missiles and Gunner.  Those... wouldn't work for Kylo if he had a 3-dice front-arc weapon.  A bullseye weapon does provide that incentive.

Bullseye also makes the ship feel very different from a Silencer.  The Silencer with better mobility and a full front arc weapon.  The Whisper with a rear turret and a bullseye, and while able to boost or roll, without access to linked actions beyond rotate.  That gives each of the two ships a niche, and will let players with different styles find their favorite.

I honestly don't think going bullseye & turret arc makes sense for the interceptor-Whisper; bullseye hunting is risky, and pretty much rules generics/low initiative uniques out entirely. If the Silencer can have a 3-dice gun without any fuss, why would slapping those same wings on a different cockpit suddenly render the guns worse? 

I could see an argument for having the mobile arc forward enhancing a forward-arc attack (reroll a blank?) to provide an incentive to rotate, but then run into the opposite problem where the arc gets stapled forwards and never rotated 90% of the time.

Gosh, this game designing business is hard.

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2 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

1-dice butt arc attack, which is hilarious

Haha! I hadn't even considered that possiblity.

3 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

Gosh, this game designing business is hard.

It's normally easier to come up with something, but when the FO have 3 interceptor-y style ships, making them unique is harder. I mean, I'm not ever trying to make the SF-style Whisper. The lore is basically "it's an SF with more tech". I would just make it a configuration for the SF that adds something. The Silencer-style Whisper at least has distinct look and the addition of the turret compared to the Silencer.

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1 hour ago, AceDogbert said:

I honestly don't think going bullseye & turret arc makes sense for the interceptor-Whisper; bullseye hunting is risky, and pretty much rules generics/low initiative uniques out entirely. If the Silencer can have a 3-dice gun without any fuss, why would slapping those same wings on a different cockpit suddenly render the guns worse? 

I could see an argument for having the mobile arc forward enhancing a forward-arc attack (reroll a blank?) to provide an incentive to rotate, but then run into the opposite problem where the arc gets stapled forwards and never rotated 90% of the time.

Gosh, this game designing business is hard.

I mean, turret-only works well enough for the RZ-2, and adding a Bullseye to it only makes it better.  If the low-generics had a price that was... well... at least a little higher than an RZ-2, I can see that working out well.

As to having a bullseye instead of a full arc... I like the thought of a 4-dice gun that doesn't get a range-1 bonus.  Would it work to give it the little "ordnance" missile symbol?  That isn't necessarily worse than a 3-dice full arc weapon, just different.  If we want a lore explanation, we could say that it's calibrated for concentrated fire, let's say.

I guess I keep coming back to this:

  • 3-dice is bad in a balance sense.  Going up doesn't work.
  • 2-dice is bad in a lore sense.  Going down doesn't work.
  • A bullseye weapon might be different.  It's going sideways, compared to 2 or 3 dice front arc weapons.

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6 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I would just make it a configuration for the SF that adds something. The Silencer-style Whisper at least has distinct look and the addition of the turret compared to the Silencer.

Oh I'd love to see Kylo's whisper released with a few config cards for /sfs. Effectively releasing two new ships for the price of one

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17 minutes ago, pyoinator said:

Oh I'd love to see Kylo's whisper released with a few config cards for /sfs. Effectively releasing two new ships for the price of one

As they try to make each expansion self-contained, I'd imagine this would need to come out in a Hotshots pack akin to B-Wing foils. People would cry and wail if they needed to buy the TIE/wi to get TIE/sf upgrades which would be understandable.

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1 minute ago, 5050Saint said:

As they try to make each expansion self-contained, I'd imagine this would need to come out in a Hotshots pack akin to B-Wing foils. People would cry and wail if they needed to buy the TIE/wi to get TIE/sf upgrades which would be understandable.

Yeah I can see this point but I think more people were angry about having to buy out-of-faction like in 1.0 the autothrusters expansion. Staying in-faction miiiiigght be ok, though they have been staying pretty true to the "only upgrades usable on the ship in 2nd edition", nantex and fang fighter excluded.

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Posted (edited)

I like the limited (2 pip or 3 pip) config for the /Sf idea for the TIE Whisper. Maybe have it also add a title slot for Kylo's Whisper with +1 front arc fp on the title and a boost>rotate linked? They'd need to add Kylo as a /Sf pilot too.

Edited by Hiemfire

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29 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

As they try to make each expansion self-contained, I'd imagine this would need to come out in a Hotshots pack akin to B-Wing foils. People would cry and wail if they needed to buy the TIE/wi to get TIE/sf upgrades which would be understandable.

 

25 minutes ago, pyoinator said:

Yeah I can see this point but I think more people were angry about having to buy out-of-faction like in 1.0 the autothrusters expansion. Staying in-faction miiiiigght be ok, though they have been staying pretty true to the "only upgrades usable on the ship in 2nd edition", nantex and fang fighter excluded.

I'd argue a config card in the Whisper-interceptor pack would be borderline acceptable, on the condition that either it is limited (and so you'll only ever need, say, two) and you receive that many in the expansion, or that a subsequent card pack brings additional copies (two or three). It would be interesting to see if they could then cook up one or two new /sf pilots which lean into whatever the config card does...

 

21 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I like the limited (2 pip or 3 pip) config for the /Sf idea for the TIE Whisper. Maybe have it also add a title slot for Kylo's Whisper with +1 front arc fp on the title and a boost>rotate linked? They'd need to add Kylo as a /Sf pilot too.

I wouldn't want Kylo being crammed into the /sf. Also, such a title would need to be Kylo-specific, or otherwise block the gunner slot, otherwise you could get some horrible combos (hello Quickdraw & Special Forces Gunner!)

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Did someone say e-war/stealth/sensor scrambling?

340?cb=20181112214120

I think tech/mod/config (each of those slashes is and/or) for TIE/SF & TIE/wi only is the way to go on portraying the stealth package. I like the suggestion made earlier of starting the game cloaked with the ability to make primary attacks that deal jam instead of damage.

As for the the issue of the 2 turret+3 forward arcs being redundant, what if it got a cannon slot instead of a forward primary? Then if you really want be thematic with an extra powerful front gun with a 4 die bullseye you can take an HLC, otherwise you take an ion cannon.

For a Whisper Gunner I'm thinking it gives you an extra die only while making special attacks with the turret facing forward, maybe with an "up to 4 dice" limit like 7FG. Either that or just straight add an extra damage for special attacks made while the turret is forward...

Just throwing out a bunch of vague ideas

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, XPav said:

And how do you fit the TIE Dagger into this? 

Give it a cannon slot?

  

Things we know about TIE Dagger: Two laser cannons  + two heavy laser cannons. New control mechanism offers greater degree of movement.

While I don't think it's been stated that it had force sensitive pilots anywhere yet, I still like the idea of it having some. Maybe just one generic and/or one or two uniques.

I think stat line is 3 attack, 3 agility, 3 (maybe 2) hull, 1 shield. Dial is a bit better than than the TIE/fo. Maybe picking up 1 white banks, or 2 blue banks. Maybe also an additional K-turn speed if it would fit.

If you really want it to have more offense, maybe a bullseye ship ability to get extra damage in somehow. But I think 3 is plenty for what we know of it. Similar firepower to an interceptor (6 laser cannons) or silencer (2 laser cannons, 2 heavy laser cannons and almost the same models as the dagger).

Edited by CaptainJaguarShark

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