Han Solo [Pilot, Rebel] vs Lock Interaction

[Hiemfire 7,292]

3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Just because something doesn't count as rerolling, doesn't mean it counts as rolling, or, if there is an interpretation that doesn't infinite loop, that one's correct.

 

Han is poorly worded, and has been known by this forum to be poorly worded since before 2e officially came out, for exactly the reason that it's designed to interact with non-attack rolls.

 

It could have trivially been worded to be less ambiguous by making it two separate abilities, one for attacks and one for everything else, but it wasn't.

"Correct" interpretation of intent or not, it is what the FAQed ability says it does and it needs to be fixed if it is not how they want Han to function.

[emeraldbeacon 1,996]

4 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

As worded with the FAQ applied as written yes.

I... don't understand this sentence.

[joeshmoe554 839]

4 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

"Correct" interpretation of intent or not, it is what the FAQed ability says it does and it needs to be fixed if it is not how they want Han to function.

Where does the FAQ say Han triggers on a his own version of a re-roll?

Edited February 26 by joeshmoe554

[nitrobenz 1,369]

3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

"Correct" interpretation of intent or not, it is what the FAQed ability says it does and it needs to be fixed if it is not how they want Han to function.

Where in the current FAQ does it say Han's ability counts as a new roll? The FAQ on p33 does explicitly state that it does not count as a reroll, but only as an explicit reiteration because a plain English reading of the card says that you do physically reroll the dice even though it does not count as a reroll. Additionally a new roll is not a type of modification and the FAQ does explicitly state that Han-ing is a modification.

The card and the FAQ do not state or imply that Han's ability counts as a new roll just because it's not a reroll. I could, with equal weight of evidence claim that what Han's ability actually does is, "spend all existing results of the roll to add an equal number of results that are randomly chosen"

TL,DR: Han's ability to modify attack/defense dice does not in fact count as any of those things. It is not a new roll of, rerolling, changing, spending, cancelling, or adding dice results. It is an unclassified modification called "using the pilot ability of Han Solo [Modified YT-1300]" which is triggered during attacking step 2a then queued in step 2b or triggered during defending step 3a then queued in step 3b.

[Hiemfire 7,292]

You roll dice for Han's ability. The FAQ states his ability is not a reroll over ruling the last part of his text. Han's ability triggers Han's ability with the FAQ applied. That simple. If it is not how it is supposed to function then FFG needs to correct the FAQ.

[emeraldbeacon 1,996]

2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

You roll dice for Han's ability. The FAQ states his ability is not a reroll over ruling the last part of his text. Han's ability triggers Han's ability with the FAQ applied. That simple. If it is not how it is supposed to function then FFG needs to correct the FAQ.

Please state how "Han's ability triggers Han's ability with the FAQ applied."  I don't understand how that applies.

I'm guessing (which I'm honestly not sure - I legitimately don't understand your phrasing) that your reasoning is that, since Han Solo does not counts as a "reroll," it therefore counts as a "roll."  That doesn't really parse; nothing states that Han Solo's ability is a roll.  The only information we have about it, per the rules, is that it is a dice modification.  While it does mechanically involve physically rolling dice, by that argument, a reroll is also a roll, and that argument has been pretty clearly struck down in the past.

[Hiemfire 7,292]

1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Please state how "Han's ability triggers Han's ability with the FAQ applied."  I don't understand how that applies.

I'm guessing (which I'm honestly not sure - I legitimately don't understand your phrasing) that your reasoning is that, since Han Solo does not counts as a "reroll," it therefore counts as a "roll."  That doesn't really parse; nothing states that Han Solo's ability is a roll.  The only information we have about it, per the rules, is that it is a dice modification.  While it does mechanically involve physically rolling dice, by that argument, a reroll is also a roll, and that argument has been pretty clearly struck down in the past.

It hasn't, I just got tired of banging my head against a wall.

[nitrobenz 1,369]

17 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

It hasn't, I just got tired of banging my head against a wall.

e kind of issues are why this game would benefit greatly from a basic terms glossary for things like Roll, Reroll, Dice Pool, etc. which may have typical meanings, but are not strictly defined in any X-wing related documents which means either we use an unwritten definition provided by the community or a dictionary definition which may not line up with "proper" game mechanics.

In the case of Roll vs Reroll the only (that I can think of) example of game material that directly addresses that there is a difference is Sunny Bounder who's ability is triggered by both rolling and rerolling dice. There would be no need to make such a distinction if rerolls counted as rolls for purposes of triggered effects.

[JBFancourt 1,261]

Soooo..... just to recap, aside from the side issues, is there consensus on:

Han and TL have interchangeable timing and can be entered into the stack at player’s choice, and

If you Han after a TL reroll, ALL dice are rerolled again?

[nitrobenz 1,369]

22 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

You roll dice for Han's ability. The FAQ states his ability is not a reroll over ruling the last part of his text. Han's ability triggers Han's ability with the FAQ applied. That simple. If it is not how it is supposed to function then FFG needs to correct the FAQ.

" Han Solo's ability is treated as a dice modification effect that is not a reroll. Because it is a dice modification effect, when attacking or defending, it triggers during the Modify Dice step. " -- Rules Reference (v1.1.0) p33. Bolding added for emphasis of the point below:

Even if you claim that Han's ability counts as a new roll, that still does not open a new opportunity for him to trigger. The FAQ clearly states that because Han's ability is a modification it is triggered during the dice modification step. This means during attack/defense Han's ability is effectively not triggered by the rolling of dice, but rather triggered by the same thing that triggers spending Locks, spending focus, or any other standard modification, that being you reach the appropriate modification step.

[nitrobenz 1,369]

2 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

Soooo..... just to recap, aside from the side issues, is there consensus on:

Han and TL have interchangeable timing and can be entered into the stack at player’s choice, and

If you Han after a TL reroll, ALL dice are rerolled again?

Consensus in my group is yes, you can Han the dice before or after using other mods. It's just rare to have a situation where it is preferable.

[Lyianx 1,434]

1 hour ago, nitrobenz said:

e kind of issues are why this game would benefit greatly from a basic terms glossary for things like Roll, Reroll, Dice Pool, etc. which may have typical meanings, but are not strictly defined in any X-wing related documents which means either we use an unwritten definition provided by the community or a dictionary definition which may not line up with "proper" game mechanics.

In the case of Roll vs Reroll the only (that I can think of) example of game material that directly addresses that there is a difference is Sunny Bounder who's ability is triggered by both rolling and rerolling dice. There would be no need to make such a distinction if rerolls counted as rolls for purposes of triggered effects.

Technically, there is a definition for reroll on pg 10. 

Quote

Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again.

 

[nitrobenz 1,369]

22 hours ago, Lyianx said:

Technically, there is a definition for reroll on pg 10. 

(Rules quote)

Yep, and it's a literal definition that includes 'roll' the die. Which does mean that in a literal reading, without taking into account the community definition of 'Roll', Hiemfire has a point that any 'Reroll' should trigger anything that is triggered by a 'Roll'.

I'm not about to suggest that C-3PO (rebel crew) should be triggered by something like the Rebel Falcon title, but I don't have a written rules based argument against someone doing so either. 😕

As I see it, the common community definition of a 'Roll' is exclusive to only the first time dice are tossed for a given step or effect, everything after that is typically considered a 'Reroll' and not a 'Roll'

Personally I stand by my statement that Han's ability is simply an unclassified modification that cannot trigger anything else because it doesn't count as anything that is defined. I also stand by my comparison that Han's ability could just as reasonably (or more reasonably!) be considered 'spending all results & adding back that many randomly' as those are known modification types and a new roll is not a known modification type.

[Lyianx 1,434]

@nitrobenz Btw, im not disagreeing with you. I too, think there should be more definitions for basic terms like that, which are used often in ability text. I just dont know where to draw the line on what would be considered *too* much information. "Dice Pool" i think is only ever even mentioned twice in the entire rules reference. Im not sure that, as of this point, needs a definition as there are not mechanics that directly relate to it. We all know what a dice pool is so i think they assume we dont need a "dua, its this" kind of definition. I would said the same for "roll", if it were not for so many ability directly using that key word, so i agree we Do need one for that, and a more in depth one for Reroll, and if they are the same, or separate effects. 

[Tvboy 3,529]

On 2/27/2020 at 11:57 AM, nitrobenz said:

" Han Solo's ability is treated as a dice modification effect that is not a reroll. Because it is a dice modification effect, when attacking or defending, it triggers during the Modify Dice step. " -- Rules Reference (v1.1.0) p33. Bolding added for emphasis of the point below:

So are we saying that game effects like spending Focus and spending Locks during attacks are "triggered" when the game moves to the modify dice step. 

Because that does not line up with how the game works when it comes to things like Rose Tico crew and spending the lock that she just generated, if spending locks actually used the ability queue then you shouldn't be able to add the lock to the queue after its triggering event already happened and the lock wasn't there to begin with. 

Also the ability queue is explicitly and only used for "abilities". Spending a lock to reroll dice is not an ability according to how abilities are defined on page 2 of the Rules Reference. An ability is "text on condition, damage, ship, and upgrade cards". Since "text in the rules reference" is not on that list, spending a lock is not an ability and therefore does not use the ability queue. 

If you spend your lock to reroll attack dice, you have moved past the timing window to use Han Solo's ability. 

[nitrobenz 1,369]

5 hours ago, Tvboy said:

So are we saying that game effects like spending Focus and spending Locks during attacks are "triggered" when the game moves to the modify dice step. 

...

I would actually just say "window of opportunity" for standard modification during attack/defense since, as you said, the ability queue is not used and so there are no "triggers" for those basic effects.

[meffo 1,401]

9 hours ago, Tvboy said:

If you spend your lock to reroll attack dice, you have moved past the timing window to use Han Solo's ability. 

no. it's just a modification, it does not have to be used before spending a lock, rerolling with predator, spending focus, calculate, force or any other type of modification.

[Lyianx 1,434]

On 2/28/2020 at 7:19 PM, Tvboy said:

If you spend your lock to reroll attack dice, you have moved past the timing window to use Han Solo's ability. 

Logically, you are correct, and would normally agree with you. But the FAQ specifically states that its allowed, which has thrown into question (once again) if Roll and Reroll are different effects, or the same.

[Tvboy 3,529]

On 2/29/2020 at 6:10 PM, Lyianx said:

Logically, you are correct, and would normally agree with you. But the FAQ specifically states that its allowed, which has thrown into question (once again) if Roll and Reroll are different effects, or the same.

Where in the FAQ does it specifically say that you can spend a Lock before using Han's ability? 

The only thing I see is page 27 that says Han's ability can be used on a rerolled die. Not the same as saying that spending a Lock can interrupt the very specific timing window of Han's ability.

Edited March 3 by Tvboy

[JBFancourt 1,261]

12 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Where in the FAQ does it specifically say that you can spend a Lock before using Han's ability? 

The only thing I see is page 27 that says Han's ability can be used on a rerolled die. Not the same as saying that spending a Lock can interrupt the very specific timing window of Han's ability.

It states it is a dice modification and occurs at the appropriate timing.

Due to both having the same window you can order them how you choose. Don’t get me wrong this DOES contradict his wording, but see below. 

On 2/27/2020 at 2:57 PM, nitrobenz said:

" Han Solo's ability is treated as a dice modification effect that is not a reroll. Because it is a dice modification effect, when attacking or defending, it triggers during the Modify Dice step. " -- Rules Reference (v1.1.0) p33. Bolding added for emphasis of the point below:

Even if you claim that Han's ability counts as a new roll, that still does not open a new opportunity for him to trigger. The FAQ clearly states that because Han's ability is a modification it is triggered during the dice modification step. This means during attack/defense Han's ability is effectively not triggered by the rolling of dice, but rather triggered by the same thing that triggers spending Locks, spending focus, or any other standard modification, that being you reach the appropriate modification step.

Edited March 3 by JBFancourt

[Lyianx 1,434]

7 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Where in the FAQ does it specifically say that you can spend a Lock before using Han's ability? 

The only thing I see is page 27 that says Han's ability can be used on a rerolled die. Not the same as saying that spending a Lock can interrupt the very specific timing window of Han's ability.

I posted exactly where earlier in this thread.
 

 

[Tvboy 3,529]

21 hours ago, Lyianx said:

I posted exactly where earlier in this thread.
 

 

RR page 30, the appendix: Huge Ships?

[Lyianx 1,434]

5 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

RR page 30, the appendix: Huge Ships?

Huge Ships Appendix is page 35. it was on page 30 in the last rules reference (1.0.6). You need to download the new one as we are on 1.1.0.