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So I just wanted to address the elephant not in the room (cause no one added it to their list). The T-47 dropped from 175 points to 140, a 35 point decrease. But was that enough?

The T-47 doesn’t see much table time competitively. Imho they could have dropped the unit another 10 point, but would that be enough?

Along with the point reduction, there were a few other changes to the T-47 as well (Immune: Range 1 Weapons keyword) and though the unit did need help, was that enough? I don’t like too many keywords being added to a unit after the fact. Points changes are easy to manage with a circular sticky placed on the card’s sleeve over the old points and the new points written in, but new keywords are a little more tricky to fit in on some cards. So I would rather see this unit get another points decrease.

But how much of a points deduction is enough to to make the T-47 really competitive?

I know this might seem crazy, but hear me out. What if the T-47 was reduced to 100 points?

I know, insane right? But what is the difference between the T-47 and say an AT-RT? The T-47 has better dice, moves faster and gets a free dodge (sort of), and what is all that worth extra than the AT-RT? 25 points? 30? Definitely not 65, or even 55 as I suggested earlier.

What are your thoughts?

 

oh and for those of you who like to say, “I’m not competitive, so I don’t really care”. It’s not about being competitive, it’s about getting units balanced. Even in a non-competitive game it’s unfair for a unit to be unbalanced in value. When you play monopoly, do you give your opponent an extra $500, because you’re not competitive?

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50 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

When you play monopoly, do you give your opponent an extra $500, because you’re not competitive?

Yes, though it’s typically because I landed on Boardwalk when it’s not mine. :) 

Joking aside.... I think the problem is the t47 was built in a realm when it was theoretically harder to collect crits. The devs didn’t consider how easy it was to crit between dice mods, impact and surge. Armor is overrated on the chassis, and so is arsenal 2 when it cannot focus down on an enemy because of the way the guns are pointed.

Now that the AAT has introduced a new mechanic to us, we apply it to the t47. Add barrage to the unit list. It can now double tap instead of arsenal 2ing separate forces. The trade off is less mobility (only the compulsory move because barrage uses two actions).

Or, if we don’t do that maybe we up it’s defense die to red to give it more staying power?

I am not going to dabble with points much, because I don’t have enough time with it to guess it’s true value.

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I have been thinking recently that a buff could be integrated into the Speeder X rule, since all current units with Speeder X are underwhelming to various degrees. While it is true that all Speeders come with Cover 1, I feel that is pretty inadequate and easily overcome. 

What I'm currently leaning towards is adding either the ability to, while defending, set a number of defense dice equal to the Speeder X value to blocks, or, if that's too good, the ability to reroll a number of defense dice equal to the Speeder X value while defending. 

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2 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

So I just wanted to address the elephant not in the room (cause no one added it to their list). The T-47 dropped from 175 points to 140, a 35 point decrease. But was that enough?

The T-47 doesn’t see much table time competitively. Imho they could have dropped the unit another 10 point, but would that be enough?

Along with the point reduction, there were a few other changes to the T-47 as well (Immune: Range 1 Weapons keyword) and though the unit did need help, was that enough? I don’t like too many keywords being added to a unit after the fact. Points changes are easy to manage with a circular sticky placed on the card’s sleeve over the old points and the new points written in, but new keywords are a little more tricky to fit in on some cards. So I would rather see this unit get another points decrease.

But how much of a points deduction is enough to to make the T-47 really competitive?

I know this might seem crazy, but hear me out. What if the T-47 was reduced to 100 points?

I know, insane right? But what is the difference between the T-47 and say an AT-RT? The T-47 has better dice, moves faster and gets a free dodge (sort of), and what is all that worth extra than the AT-RT? 25 points? 30? Definitely not 65, or even 55 as I suggested earlier.

What are your thoughts?

 

oh and for those of you who like to say, “I’m not competitive, so I don’t really care”. It’s not about being competitive, it’s about getting units balanced. Even in a non-competitive game it’s unfair for a unit to be unbalanced in value. When you play monopoly, do you give your opponent an extra $500, because you’re not competitive?

It’s already cheaper and more durable than the X-34; so you’d have to discount that as well. And it’s cheaper than the GAv with more impact and damage. So, is that in need of a points decrease as well?

Also, I think you’re underselling the differences between the AT-RT and the T-47; bigger base, ignores terrain, faster, extra movement, an extra hit point, innate defense against Impact (cover 1 requires an attacker to get at least 2 hits to convert), better saves against crits that do happen, immunity to melee and range 1 weapons (and thus immunity to melee specific characters), blast can’t be used against it, better dice in attack, the pilot option to upgrade it.

It also doesn’t present an opportunity cost of a support slot.

What is the model heavy you think we should be aiming for? It’s already cheaper than two full Rebel trooper z-6 squads (72+72=144), and trounces their defense thanks to armor. Is cancelling 6/8 die faces on most attacks in the game really that bad?

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2 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

...But what is the difference between the T-47 and say an AT-RT? The T-47 has better dice, moves faster and gets a free dodge (sort of), and what is all that worth extra than the AT-RT? 25 points? 30? Definitely not 65, or even 55 as I suggested earlier.

What are your thoughts?

...

The T-47 is still a bit expensive for what it does, but 100 points would be far  too cheap.

Its main advantage over an ATRT  is that the T47 can threaten commanders and finish left over unit leaders that hide out of line of sight.

I experienced a bit with Aggressive Tacitcs and Linked Targeting Array, but I admit I would not take that to a tournament.
If you shoot with a surge and one or two Aims each, 2 Airspeeders can actually be quite scary for a lot of commanders.
Krennic, Doku, Vader, Luke, and Palpatine don't like it at all if they get caught by two T-47 with a lot of green tokens at the end of turn 1.
The green Tokens help quite a bit with the unreliable output, because each attack you make with them has to count.
I would also say some Astromechs are useful in the current Meta with all the critical x.

I am not sure the list I used will still work after the last Rule update, because I used Relais on Mark II to provide the T-47s with orders. The activation control and the orders on the T-47s where actually quite important in all the testgames I did.

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19 minutes ago, M.Mustermann said:

That would even be too strong. 2 T-47 with LTA/Aggressive Tactics could take out every Commander in one Turn

Is it, 

Aat 4 red attack average per hit. = 3 against T47 RRRBBB = 4.25 per attack

Defense AAT 9/6 red dice. T47 7/5 white dice + surge

Yes the speeder has greater offense but If you put it back to 175 pts I think that it compares well with the AAT which does get barrage. Since it's harder to put down (and yes I know the speeder has cover, but it's taking more hits after rolling defense)

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19 minutes ago, Katarn said:

I was quite surprised to see the change to Wedge. I dont know if I'd swap out a speed jockey but an extra pivot for 5 points sounds handy.

Yeah,  that was a nice little buff. 

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I would say the main problem for the T-47 is that it does not really know what it wants to be? The arsenal wants you to be between two units, which from personal experience is just a bad bad idea. The defense is not good enough to slug it out with other heavies or to dive behind enemy lines and shoot units out of cover. While it has decent dice, but can't really hide in the back and pick off targets.

Point wise it may be in a good spot, but I think they should add some keywords to it to make it pop. I think they could go super offense or defense with the T-47 with little change and can really help it out. 

Glass cannon options:

  1. Critical X. That way it packs more of a punch and if you get it in the right spot it could really hurt.
  2. Blast. So that it can pose a threat to infantry behind cover. A really big change that is most likely too OP for the unit, but the Clone Wars heavies are pretty scary as is.
  3. Surge to hit. Like others said. Safe option.

Defense options:

  1. Cover 2 (3 with the pilot). Most other heavies you do not want to shoot at because of their health or defense. Add a twist to the Rebel heavies by saying its moving too fast, but one good roll with knock it out of the sky (like in both 5 and 8).
  2. Agile X. Another option to up its suitability and go with the whole theme of the unit with little to no change.

 

I do think just one of these options could work, just not sure which one is the best. I played the **** thing enough to feel like its is just one keyword away from being solid option. Not top tier, but something you can take and feel like you got your points out of it................................................... For the life of me I will never understand what they saw in this unit when they were testing it.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

I would say the main problem for the T-47 is that it does not really know what it wants to be? The arsenal wants you to be between two units, which from personal experience is just a bad bad idea. The defense is not good enough to slug it out with other heavies or to dive behind enemy lines and shoot units out of cover. While it has decent dice, but can't really hide in the back and pick off targets.

Point wise it may be in a good spot, but I think they should add some keywords to it to make it pop. I think they could go super offense or defense with the T-47 with little change and can really help it out. 

Glass cannon options:

  1. Critical X. That way it packs more of a punch and if you get it in the right spot it could really hurt.
  2. Blast. So that it can pose a threat to infantry behind cover. A really big change that is most likely too OP for the unit, but the Clone Wars heavies are pretty scary as is.
  3. Surge to hit. Like others said. Safe option.

Defense options:

  1. Cover 2 (3 with the pilot). Most other heavies you do not want to shoot at because of their health or defense. Add a twist to the Rebel heavies by saying its moving too fast, but one good roll with knock it out of the sky (like in both 5 and 8).
  2. Agile X. Another option to up its suitability and go with the whole theme of the unit with little to no change.

 

I do think just one of these options could work, just not sure which one is the best. I played the **** thing enough to feel like its is just one keyword away from being solid option. Not top tier, but something you can take and feel like you got your points out of it................................................... For the life of me I will never understand what they saw in this unit when they were testing it.

 

 

Adding surge would just increase the front cannon damage to 4.5 from 3.75 and the ground buzzer to 2.5 from 2.

Against red armor that’s only a change of .375 expected wounds on the main guns and .25 wounds on the rear guns.

Also, there’s no such thing as cover 3. It’s light/heavy cover.

Dodge tokens are pointless because they can’t block critical hits, and those are the only thing that presents a threat to an armored unit right now.

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7 hours ago, Derrault said:

Adding surge would just increase the front cannon damage to 4.5 from 3.75 and the ground buzzer to 2.5 from 2.

Against red armor that’s only a change of .375 expected wounds on the main guns and .25 wounds on the rear guns.

Also, there’s no such thing as cover 3. It’s light/heavy cover.

Dodge tokens are pointless because they can’t block critical hits, and those are the only thing that presents a threat to an armored unit right now.

Good to know some stats. So maybe just one keyword change is not good enough after all? I may start leaning towards just lower the points again and just run 2-3 as a cheap heavy swarm. At least that is one way for FFG to sell them lol.

I am not convinced that the meta will shift to heavies and rockets, but I bet a lot more will show up in casual list (they look like a lot of fun). The T-47 will not do well in that environment (which is funny since it should be a heavy killer)............... I am just not sure if their is any way to fix it.

Edited by RyantheFett
grammar

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It's  main problems remain, even after point reduction:

- It's only good at one objective, Breakthrough (it'll  be good at the upcoming Bombing Run objective)

- For its points it doesn't have good damage output.

- It's still pretty easy to destroy

Compare it to a Deathtrooper with DLT heavy. The DT is good at all objectives, it's damage is much better, it's more survivable, and it's cheaper.

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2 hours ago, Thraug said:

It's  main problems remain, even after point reduction:

- It's only good at one objective, Breakthrough (it'll  be good at the upcoming Bombing Run objective)

- For its points it doesn't have good damage output.

- It's still pretty easy to destroy

Compare it to a Deathtrooper with DLT heavy. The DT is good at all objectives, it's damage is much better, it's more survivable, and it's cheaper.

Deathtroopers are most definitely not more survivable. DT with DLT has only 5 wounds, with a red surge save. It dies in 15 hits on average; which is 3.75 attacks from Rebel troopers with a Z-6, the same against the T-47 only averages 3.33, less than half its HP.

And, yeah, it’s cheaper, but only by 22 points (does anyone take it without the config?) The point per wound ratio is actually in favor of the T-47. (20 points per wound on the T-47, 23.6 per wound on the DTs)

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The point decrease helped.

The immune to grenades and other range 1 weapons helped.

The new wedge is great.

Adding surge-hit would be the icing on the cake.

I think the airspeeder can be worth using. It can flank, it can hurt vehicles and with coms jammer and ground buzzer you can cause chaos in the enemy line.

However it is not very effective to shoot down infantry unless it gets close enough. Also there isn't enough armor units out there yet. Also there is so many objectives where a single activation non-trooper can only do so much. 

The at-st and occupier is in a similar situation, but thanks to their weapons, upgrades and access to aim tokens makes them better at shooting down dugged in ifantry without having to get close.

The airspeeder got it's mobility, however since it can't hold many objectives and the  3*6 board it's not always so important to be that fast, espechially when it only gives you cover 1, wich dosen't do much vs the weapon pools in the game.

In conclusion I think it can be a solid anti tank unit to bring if you wanna take out another heavy before turn 5. Also you can use it as a flying bomb with ground buzzer and coms jammer (allthough this is often a suicide run). However unless it gets additional buffs, it's not gonna be the heavy powerhouse it needs to be in order to compete with the rebel support units.

Edited by jocke01

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19 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

devs didn’t consider how easy it was to crit between dice mods, impact and surge.

This is probably the best analysis I’ve see. Of the t-47. I love it and use it whenever I get to, but anything that surges to crit or gets lots of aims can put a hurt too quickly. Cover, agile, dodges, etc don’t help this.

 

Shielded is the only thing that helps this issue and I don’t recall them having shields?

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What about adding some changes to the Speeder X keyword. 

"After the attacker converts surges, change X critical results to hit results" 

Would also help the Speeder Bikes. Prevents Snipers from plinking in lucky crit hits. Also impact weapons will be unaffected. 

And also give the t-47 Outmaneuver and Barrage 👌

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5 minutes ago, HOBOBOI said:

What about adding some changes to the Speeder X keyword. 

"After the attacker converts surges, change X critical results to hit results" 

Would also help the Speeder Bikes. Prevents Snipers from plinking in lucky crit hits. Also impact weapons will be unaffected. 

And also give the t-47 Outmaneuver and Barrage 👌

I’d rather baby step it and have to slowly buff multiple times instead of making it too good and then backing off some of them.

I like the speeder X change concept as so far all of them are susceptible to crits against white dice and personally I would prefer rrg changes over points changes or keyword changes if possible.

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36 minutes ago, HOBOBOI said:

What about adding some changes to the Speeder X keyword. 

"After the attacker converts surges, change X critical results to hit results" 

Would also help the Speeder Bikes. Prevents Snipers from plinking in lucky crit hits. Also impact weapons will be unaffected. 

And also give the t-47 Outmaneuver and Barrage 👌

Could they even be hurt at that point? Like, the average crits is going to be something <1 on most dice pools already, and with the pilot they’d have to suffer >4 regular hits with impact to even possibly get hurt at that point.

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