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kyten44

Tie advance X1 compared to T65 x wings?

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We have all seen that 5X is a thing. And I like it. But as an imperial player, i can't bring myself to fly it. So I was looking for an imperial replacement. I came to the X1. For 4 less points you lose 1hp, native 3 dice attack, and access to the boost action. But you gain an agility die. Which in theory equals the lost HP. And you have room for uprades. The obvious choice is passive sensors, to turn on the 3 die gun w/autocrit. It makes the offense better but leaves you modless on defense.

However, you have enough points left over for a named X1. And if you drop one passive sensor you can get I5 maarek steele with fire control system.

Now that leaves one of the I2 without an easy way to get a lock.

List:

Maarek steele w/ fcs 47

Tempest w/ passive sensor x3 117

Tempest 36

Total 200.

(Not meant to be a list critique. Just an example of what fits.)

Is 5X really that much better than 5X1?

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You pretty much already nailed the problem, they have to choose between 3 attack dice and defensive dice mods or red maneuvers and the X-Wings don't. An X-Wing gets to spend a focus on defense to survive or do a k-turn and still gets to roll 3 attack dice and get a higher chance at natties. An X1 doesn't even get to choose between survival and red dice, you just have to flip that charge token and hope your natural green dice hold out with 5 HP long enough to take that passive lock and actually attack.

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A friend of mine already qualified for Worlds with 5 TIE Advanced.  They’re a little riskier than 5X but arguably better in a meta of 2-dice generic ships - if I’m facing a vulture swarm I’d much rather be playing 5 TIEs than 5 T-65s!

Im refreshing by blog about generic efficiency with the new points costs and the TIE Advanced is one I plan on calling out as being a lot better than I expected.

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51 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

 An X-Wing gets to spend a focus on defense to survive

That brings up a question. What is the mathematical difference between 2w/ focus and 3 w/o? I actually dont know.

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Just now, kyten44 said:

That brings up a question. What is the mathematical difference between 2w/ focus and 3 w/o? I actually dont know.

Stay tuned to my next blog then!  It depends on how many attackers and how many red dice they have.

The T-65 is better vs smaller numbers if attackers with 3 red dice each.  The TIE is better vs larger number of attackers with 2 red dice each.

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4 minutes ago, kyten44 said:

That brings up a question. What is the mathematical difference between 2w/ focus and 3 w/o? I actually dont know.

Also in general you can brain this quite easily.

2 dice with focus = 2 dice with 5 symbols you want to see = 10 positive outcomes 

3 dice with no focus = 3 dice with 3 symbols you want to see = 9 positive outcomes.

 

2 dice w/focus is approx 10% better than 3 without.  One one attack.  As soon as you spend focus and more people are firing at you 3 green dice starts to catch up.

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Don't forget the highroll potential. 3 green dice gives a lot of it.  If you get a good string of natural results, that can *really* change the course of a game.  Reliability is good in a lot of situations, but you also have to play to your outs and sometimes your only "out" is to roll like Qui-gon Jinn.

Another thought: from a recent game I had against X-Wings, the Focus+Boost with closed S-Foils was really useful against me.  That adds a lot of blocking and range-control potential, and seems like is situationally really worth the reduction for 3 to 2 red dice.  Being able to switch from Kihraxz to Hefty A-Wing is really useful.  There's probably a lot of time when doing the Focus/Roll is pretty handy on TIE/x1, even if it means you don't get locks.

However, Focus-Boost is almost surely better than Focus-Roll.  Boost is just really good.

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Been liking the X1 for a while. Focus and 3 dice defence/lock and 3 dice attack is a nice bit of flexibility if you can predict what you need where.

Takes a bit more thought than 5X but that thought can be well rewarded.

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You only need to get locks once with the X1s unless the opponent is shedding locks somehow.  Im not saying its an irrelevant issue but it is not as big a deal as people are making it out to be. you get a lock once then focus, barrel roll, or focus=>BR the rest of the game.   Statistically an auto crit and 2 red with a focus is better than 3 red unfocusee and spending the target lock.

in that context the its boost vs autocrit, which doesnt seem terribly one sided

Edited by Vontoothskie

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The necessity to take locks restricts who they can shoot at in the combat phase, means you have to be in range of higher ps ships, lack of defensive focus etc.

I kinda don't believe despite what happened on the Sunday at UK SOS. Need Tim to get in front of the mic and explain it!

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11 hours ago, kyten44 said:

For 4 less points you lose 1hp, native 3 dice attack, and access to the boost action. But you gain an agility die. Which in theory equals the lost HP.

This isn't worth it lol. 

I'm glad to see Tempests are 36, but they're tough to fly. Might be good as a 1 or 2 off filler, bu I can think of better uses for 72 points. 

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2 hours ago, Darth Seridur said:

The necessity to take locks restricts who they can shoot at in the combat phase, means you have to be in range of higher ps ships, lack of defensive focus etc.

I kinda don't believe despite what happened on the Sunday at UK SOS. Need Tim to get in front of the mic and explain it!

I generally assume that the success of a list like 5X or 5 X1s revolves around manuevering so you line up powerful salvos on a single target immediately and kill it.  succeeding or failing that often decides the game.  Because you usually lose the PS wars with this type of list to an ace you have to do your damage before you start losing pilots, lest you fund an endgame with 2 X1s vs Fenn Rau or whatever. So to me you get your locks, shred something for an early advantage, then fly around defensively trying to whittle your opponent and maintain that lead.   hence only going for locks once

Edited by Vontoothskie

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The crit is not to be underestimated. These things can be quite scary when locked on, well positioned and able to focus. Kinda makes them average against certain things, early on. I'm generally looking to weather the trades a little, in those matches, until things are a bit more ripe. That's where the 3ag plus focus come in, and focus into roll is very neat for a slightly cagey, ominous march.

Boost is great but only aces need it.

I prefer FCS. Passive maybe better, definitely more popular. But I like the ongoing mod. Puts the fear in things differently. You don't need to lock on the way in, you just have to get your lock selection right when there. Sometimes it's about sending something running, rather than aiming to catch it now. And it's often a bit of gamble ofc.

But nothing likes guaranteed crits and these ones come cheap.

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My answer to the Lock vs Focus conundrum would be to swap one of the TIE-x1s for Jendon. That way you come into the first round of combat with BOTH a Lock and Focus on all 5 of your ships (EDIT: 4 of your 5 ships. I forgot Jendon can’t target lock without upgrades.)
For example:
 

New Squadron

(48) Colonel Jendon [Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle]
Points: 48

(36) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 38

(36) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 38

(36) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 38

(36) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 38

Total points: 200

I’d feel a lot more confident flying this than 5 x1’s, no matter how you configure the upgrades on them. 

Edited by Herowannabe

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30 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

My answer to the Lock vs Focus conundrum would be to swap one of the TIE-x1s for Jendon. That way you come into the first round of combat with BOTH a Lock and Focus on all 5 of your ships (EDIT: 4 of your 5 ships. I forgot Jendon can’t target lock without upgrades.)
For example:
 

New Squadron

(48) Colonel Jendon [Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle]
Points: 48

(36) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 38

(36) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 38

(36) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 38

(36) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 38

Total points: 200

I’d feel a lot more confident flying this than 5 x1’s, no matter how you configure the upgrades on them. 

I think the discussion is hyperspace centric. Jendon is Extended only.

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15 hours ago, Darth Seridur said:

I kinda don't believe despite what happened on the Sunday at UK SOS. Need Tim to get in front of the mic and explain it!

We can always ask him if he's willing to jump on for a bit ... you could come on too and quiz him from the perspective of a die hard little grey ships player?

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So I’m very interested in this thread. I’m an Imp player that was sad 😢 by our hyperspace options. 

Another issue I see with the hyper meta is all the fangs. So throw in a turret for counterplay? 
 

New Squadron

(76) Rear Admiral Chiraneau [VT-49 Decimator]
(4) Dauntless
Points: 80

(36) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 39

(36) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 39

(36) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 39

Total points: 197

 

Thoughts?

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13 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

I prefer FCS.

In Hyperspace, I believe this is the answer. There is enough low initiative ships in Hyperspace Maarek and I2 Tempest all with FCS should be decent. You get a 1 point bid against other I2's (like 5X) so you can guarantee your locks against them. I'd imagine they'd be decent against droids, as the ATC crit factory would be pretty harmful against their lack of shields until the scrum denies lock actions.

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23 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

So I’m very interested in this thread. I’m an Imp player that was sad 😢 by our hyperspace options. 

Another issue I see with the hyper meta is all the fangs. So throw in a turret for counterplay? 
 

New Squadron

(76) Rear Admiral Chiraneau [VT-49 Decimator]
(4) Dauntless
Points: 80

(36) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 39

(36) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 39

(36) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 39

Total points: 197

 

Thoughts?

I've flown 4 Skulls against something similar. While I had a massive edge on approach and general aceyness,  every damage sneaking being critical really swung things. RACs coverage was another big factor in keeping things a bit more even.

I personally prefer 2 or 3 x1 plus other to 5x. I like a bit more flex and enjoy askng more obscure questions with my set up. FCS is a better fit with that philosophy, imo, regardless of format. Though they are generally a little behind the curve for Extended anyway...

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2 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

In Hyperspace, I believe this is the answer. There is enough low initiative ships in Hyperspace Maarek and I2 Tempest all with FCS should be decent. You get a 1 point bid against other I2's (like 5X) so you can guarantee your locks against them. I'd imagine they'd be decent against droids, as the ATC crit factory would be pretty harmful against their lack of shields until the scrum denies lock actions.

The list Tim played was 3 I2 with Passive. 2 I3 with FCS

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