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What units are now clearly overcosted?

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14 hours ago, SoonerTed said:

At 75 points Wookies are in every way better than the Imperial Guards.  And I say this as an Imperial player.

I think you need to use guardian and aggressive tactics. Wookies are not better in every way 😂

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14 hours ago, Lightrock said:

I'm a Wookie player (have 2 in my current list) so I absolutely won't mind if they make them a tad cheaper but I believe they're in the right spot. I can understand why people compare them to TTs but: 

A) they really are a very different kind of animal (pun totally intended) and should be used differently and

B) if anything, TTs are simply a bit too cheap.  

Things Wookies are great at:

1. Taking out Jedi.

2. Scaring Tauns away.

3. Killing Tauns that don't get the memo and try to approach anyway.

4. Grabbing contested objectives and running.

5. Infiltrating via rapid reinforcements in very inconvenient places.

6. Operating on the flanks as short-medium ranged skirmishers, much like fleet troopers except much tougher and virtually impossible to suppress.

7. Occassionally charging the enemy lines if the opportunity arises, especially if the enemy is already preoccupied with other melee units.

Things Wookies are NOT great at:

1. Charging right at the enemy lines "because they're a melee unit AMIRITE", especially if the enemy is not preoccupied with anything else and can just shoot them to pieces on their way in.

2. Pretending to be Tauntauns, except much slower and without the free dodge tokens. 

They're extremely dependable at what they do. Their effective HP isn't far behind Death Troopers or IRG and unlike those, they're unfazed by pierce, force choke, poison or anything else that bypasses defence dice, since their durability is already baked into their profile and defence dice are just a bonus. They have no bad defence rolls - just the usual ones (no blocks) and the good ones (yay! a block!) - and that's the just the kind of variance you're looking for when you want to get consistent results during tournaments.

Overall they carried me all the way to the 2nd place during grands and I don't mean "carried" as a hyperbole - I only had 1 unit of them in my list at the time and that was the only unit in my entire list that hasn't failed me a single time during the tournament, meeting and occasionally wildly exceeding expectations every single game. I've also only lost them once during the 5 games - and that was after they single-handedly killed Chewie and Han and then dealt 6 wounds to a Tauntaun squad, effectively saving the day and turning around a game that was definitely going south for me. I switched to using 2 squads of them after that tournament and so far I have no regrets.

As for truly overcosted units, I'd look at BARCs, Pathfinders and the rebel support choices. Every time I tried using them I felt I'm just not getting enough value for my points. Never had the same impression about Wookies, unless I did something stupid and got them killed for nothing, but that's true for any unit I guess. 

 

 

I would agree that Tauntauns are too cheap, but otherwise I think you missed one essential thing:
With the exeption of picking up a mission objective, Tauntauns are even better in the defensive area denial and counter attack roles that you used those Wookies for.
If an opponent commits his Tauntauns to an early charge, a defensive Tauntaun-unit can punish that just as good as  Wookies. A Tauntauncharge has an average of slightly more than 5 hits, 4 Wookies average at 5 hits.
Even as a utility unit, it is usually much better to use two naked Rebel Troopers (that are part of most Rebel lists anyway at the moment) for that purpose.
It is also slightly easier to hide Wookies out of line of sight, but there are actually surprisingly few pieces of terrain than can completly hide Wookies but cannot hide Tauntauns.

In other matchups against empire gunlines and such, Tauntauns are much more useful. Wookies are a huge liability with their limited range and higher pricetag.
Tauntauns are much faster and can deny more area with a potential counter charge than Wookies.
Tauntauns can block movement of enemy assault units to prevent them from charging through your line.
They can also disengage and shoot to open up an activated enemy assault unit to further ranged attacks.
Tauntauns can attack without exposing themselves to counter attacks by moving back behind terrain or out of range 3, which is useful for an expensive counter-unit.
Even without dodge tokens, Tauntauns are more durable against single attacks. With two dodge tokens, they are even more durable against light sabers. They are also far less likely to loose a model and therefore output after the first attack they take.

The comparison to Tauntauns may be unfair, but even without them I am still not convinced that Wookies are worth a minimum of 75 or 110 points. They are not at a fair pricepoint at the moment.  I would definetly put them on the same shelf with full Scout Troopers or the T-47.
 

 

Edited by M.Mustermann

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Scout Troopers and Rebel Commandos (not Strike Teams, obviously) might be at the top of my list of units that are too expensive. Everything else that could probably use a points reduction is still taken occasionally. Pretty much nobody ever takes full Scouts or Commandos. 

However, something that I think could help them without reducing their price (or only reducing it by a little) would be fixing Smoke Grenades to make them actually usable. Smoke combos extremely well with both Low Profile and Sharpshooter, but it costing an action kills any utility it could have. Some ideas on how to make it usable:

1. Make the action to drop Smoke include a move. So that the unit can move and smoke, and still shoot. Or shoot then move/smoke.  I like this option the best, and I think is the "cleanest" fix in terms of card errata. 

2. Make it exhaust to drop smoke as a free action. Maybe give it Cycle, but I don't think that makes much sense thematically. 

Edited by Lochlan

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I feel that units and weapons with short or melee firing ranges, such as Wookies, Fleets, B2s, Radiation Canon, etc, should have lower costs if the unit doesn't have a secondary role ability (Guardian, Command Cards, R2,etc).

These units typically aren't attacking nearly as much as range 3+ units and even though they generally have better attacks, their damage per game is almost always significantly lower, if they even attack at all.

These units should have had much better attack dice or a lower cost. Firing around range 3 is extremely important in this game. Their cost formula for short-range attackers is way off.

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Posted (edited)

Over Costed Units (as I see it).

- Scout Troopers: Nothing justifies 15 points per guy in that unit... that's bonkers.
- Dewback Rider: Hear me out, he's actually quite similar to Z-74s, and like the BARC he looks like he was costed before the points drop.

- Droidekas: Everyone has this correct. They should be 80pts... maybe 85 tops. (Also the fact that they are Vehicles is garbage. Maybe they should have been something like Vehicle Troopers?)

- All Clone Troopers.
- BARC: This thing should be like 65, and all of it's weapons need at least a 10 point drop.

- MK II Medium Blaster Trooper: No where near as good as the Mortar (Suppressive alone makes the Mortar better), and costs more than the Mortar. I'm not sure I've ever seen these fielded aside from the one time I did it as a joke.
- Rebel Commandos: Lets just face it, both these and the Scouts box are only bought for the busted Snipers (which were such bad game balance ideas for so many reasons, the Sniper teams should never have been designed as what they are - but that's a whole separate arguement). At least the Rebel Commandos don't seem as crazily over costed as the Scouts, just a little. 
- Wookie Warriors
- X-34 Landspeeder: Really, not the base card - but it's weapons upgrades are bonkers over costed.
- 1.4 FD Laser Cannon: I think by only about 5. Again... I've never actually seen these fielded.
- T-47: It's better now than it was, but it still seems just a tad over costed. Not by a huge amount, probably about 5.

To me the Light Side Factions have the biggest cost problems.

And I'm not convinced TaunTauns are under costed, it's just that so many other things are over costed.
Well, I often think the games suggested pt. size of 800 is about 200pts too small. 

Edited by KryatDragon

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On 2/21/2020 at 6:18 AM, lologrelol said:

These issues stem from terrain set-up, objectives, and in terms of points - the nature of alternate activation style games.

Maybe we just aren't using enough terrain on our battlefields?
Maybe there's just not enough LOS blockers?
Not enough movement hindering terrain?

Coming from Infinity into Legion this is my conclusion too. All to often the game boards look like for 40k and thus you get a sniper meta. This game rewards tactical movement, but that supposes there´´s terrain to use. 

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Honestly a lot of the problems are with the upgrades not being worth their cost and the only reason to take a unit is because of an upgrade they have.

Wookiees need bodies, but their weapon (which is good) costs more than it should (25pts-35pts for a weapon you really don't want to shoot is still high, but you get the body)

Landspeeder weapons are crazy high, but there isn't a great reason to take the vehicle without the weapons, so no-one takes it.

Commandos probably need to be dropped to 13-14 pts, especially the Imperial version.

Rebel officer is probably too expensive especially compared to the Imperial officer. There aren't any upgrades that synergize with him and adding 1 dodge isn't really that useful for a defensively-weak army in the first place.

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On 2/20/2020 at 1:43 PM, Darth 2Face said:

I recently played a landspeeder/R2 build and it really struck me how out of balance the points are when compared to other units. The Hardpoints were where I saw a real problem. The Mark II Medium blaster has fixed front, 4B attack for 34 points with surge to hit. The AT-RT has the Rotary Blaster with 5B with surge to crit, originally for 30 points and now reduced to 20. That makes the landspeeder Mark II overcosted even before the Rotary Blaster received a points drop. It's things like that that make me think that the designers are just guessing at points.

(On a side note, I did find that the landspeeder was well worth the points when the hardpoint was left off. It does serve a very different role though with this different build.)

I pretty much said the same thing when the landspeeder was revealed and was completed flamed for it.  Nevermind the fact that the mk2 emplacement has critical 2.  Even Bistan and his equivalent ion gun has better value than the landspeeder counterpart.

 

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3 hours ago, lologrelol said:

I agree. I wish 1000pts was standard.

Legion was originally designed as a 1,000 point game, and they reduced it to 800 because of a concern over how long a game would take to play.

Alex Davy (the creator) confirmed in an interview.

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I don’t like the pattern the developers have fallen into, of creating a unit that is way too powerful, or not powerful enough for the points requirement, then 6 months later nerf or boost as needed. It means we have at least 6 months of a negative play experience for everyone not playing the powerful unit, or not being able to put the under powered unit on the table. I don’t mean to throw shade at the testers, but don’t they raise issues with the balance of a given unit, or do complaints just fall on deaf ears?

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

I don’t like the pattern the developers have fallen into, of creating a unit that is way too powerful, or not powerful enough for the points requirement, then 6 months later nerf or boost as needed. It means we have at least 6 months of a negative play experience for everyone not playing the powerful unit, or not being able to put the under powered unit on the table. I don’t mean to throw shade at the testers, but don’t they raise issues with the balance of a given unit, or do complaints just fall on deaf ears?

Of all the miniature games I played, I think Legion has a great balance, but every game has a meta... and in a game where activations are as key, you want to staple Sniper Teams at 48 pts. If Sniper Teams are as efficient as they are now, there's no room for Wookiees (for example), because you can have 3 SF, and competition is competition, and in competition you want efficiency.

But you can field whatever you want! That's great, and you hardly run into a game where you are slaughtered in Legion, if you at least know what are you doing 🙂 

Edited by oaicart

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@KryatDragon

I'd offer up that the Scout Troopers actually have a good ratio of Points to Damage output for the Imperials (Rebels have it better, but that's also their forte).

i.e. Let's just do a comparison of the damage ratios of naked units:

Empire
Corps:
Stormtroopers - 44 points, 29.333 points per damage
Snowtroopers - 48 points, 32 points per damage
Shoretroopers - 52 points, 26 points per damage
DF-90 Mortar Trooper - 36 points, 48 points per damage.

Special Forces:
Scout Troopers - 60 points, 15 points per damage.
Imperial Royal Guards - 75 points, 25 points per damage.
Imperial Death Troopers - 76 points, 25.333 points per damage

Support:
E-Web Heavy Blaster Team - 55 points, 19.13 points per damage
74-Z Speeder Bikes - 75 points, 20 points per damage
Dewback Rider - 90 points, 24 points per damage (melee)

Rebellion
Corps:
Rebel Troopers - 40 points, 20 points per damage
Fleet Troopers - 44 points, 14.667 points per damage
Rebel Veterans - 48 points, 19.2 points per damage
Mark II Medium Blaster Trooper - 38 points, 15.2 points per damage

Special Forces:
Rebel Commandos - 60 points, 24 points per damage (range 1-3)
Wookie Warriors - 75 points, 20 points per damage (melee) / 25 points per damage (range 1-2)
Rebel Pathfinders - 68 points, 19.42857 points per damage / 22.667 points per damage / 45.333 points per damage

Support:
Tauntaun Riders - 90 points, 18.9 points per damage (melee + ram 2 only) / 25.7 points per damage ranged
1.4 FD Laser Cannon Team - 70 points, 22.4 points per damage (range 1-5)

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4 hours ago, Derrault said:

@KryatDragon

I'd offer up that the Scout Troopers actually have a good ratio of Points to Damage output for the Imperials (Rebels have it better, but that's also their forte).

 

Absolutely, a Commando at 15 points is a great deal. If you compare it to a Rebel Trooper (just the body), for 5 more points you have:

- Double the courage

- Low Profile instead of Nimble (we can discuss if thats better or not)

- Scout 2

- Sharpshooter 1

- Surge to hit.

Points wise, 15 is more than justified for a Commando, but the problem is when you make a competitive list. They don't do enough to justify losing the activations, and they are SF, so you can just have 3 of those units.

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3 hours ago, Derrault said:

@KryatDragon

I'd offer up that the Scout Troopers actually have a good ratio of Points to Damage output for the Imperials (Rebels have it better, but that's also their forte).

i.e. Let's just do a comparison of the damage ratios of naked units:

Empire
Corps:
Stormtroopers - 44 points, 29.333 points per damage
Snowtroopers - 48 points, 32 points per damage
Shoretroopers - 52 points, 26 points per damage
DF-90 Mortar Trooper - 36 points, 48 points per damage.

Special Forces:
Scout Troopers - 60 points, 15 points per damage.
Imperial Royal Guards - 75 points, 25 points per damage.
Imperial Death Troopers - 76 points, 25.333 points per damage

Support:
E-Web Heavy Blaster Team - 55 points, 19.13 points per damage
74-Z Speeder Bikes - 75 points, 20 points per damage
Dewback Rider - 90 points, 24 points per damage (melee)

Rebellion
Corps:
Rebel Troopers - 40 points, 20 points per damage
Fleet Troopers - 44 points, 14.667 points per damage
Rebel Veterans - 48 points, 19.2 points per damage
Mark II Medium Blaster Trooper - 38 points, 15.2 points per damage

Special Forces:
Rebel Commandos - 60 points, 24 points per damage (range 1-3)
Wookie Warriors - 75 points, 20 points per damage (melee) / 25 points per damage (range 1-2)
Rebel Pathfinders - 68 points, 19.42857 points per damage / 22.667 points per damage / 45.333 points per damage

Support:
Tauntaun Riders - 90 points, 18.9 points per damage (melee + ram 2 only) / 25.7 points per damage ranged
1.4 FD Laser Cannon Team - 70 points, 22.4 points per damage (range 1-5)

Ok, but why would I *need* to deploy scouts? The other SF options are more versatile and have other perks that the scouts lack: death troopers are jacks of all trades, royal guards are the melee and guardian specialists. Scout squad? Have terrible defence for imperial standards, shoot the same dice as the guards and only have scout 1 going for them..

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While I acknowledge that droidekas may be over-costed, I still love them.

First, they're pretty much the coolest thing from the prequels.

Second, they're durability and suppression just make them a nuisance. My opponents can't ignore them, but they're also not easily removed. They usually spend several turns trying to get rid of the 6 I run, and by the time they do, the 35 paper-thin B1s that have been ignored most of the game have done their work.

Droidekas make wonderful fire magnets, and that's the best (only) defense B1s have.

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@Derrault
 

I think evaluating only the naked offensive side of a unit is really missing the mark on what is over and under costed. It does not evaluate the full price point of a unit. And that is after all what this thread is about.

Sure Scouts have good damage per point output... at Range 2 and under. Which means I get an extra round generally to shoot at them before they can shoot at me, and with their lower defense dice than a typical cheaper Imperial unit, means they are a lot less effective. If your numbers bore out, don't you think you'd see more of them than Shores? Shores are cake with bonus ice cream, they are so good. Range 3 (4 with weapon), generally a free Aim Token, and solid shooting + defense. They are way better than than your raw comparison shows. They are the staple unit now for Empire - and are absolutely worth their points. 

Scouts are rarely if ever fielded because they are not worth their points.
And since you don't need them for their Sniper Team (this was the screw up by FFG - sniper squads should have been linked like the light field artillery pieces)... Scouts are over costed and therefore under used.

I just don't think you can adequately evaluate a unit based upon only its offensive output, at least so far as I am concerned.

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