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Uetur

What units are now clearly overcosted?

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2 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

You're ignoring the surge chart. Wookiees surge to hit, IRG don't. 3B/3W with surge averages 3 hits. 6B no surge also averages 3 hits. But the distribution graph on the 6B no surge has better chances of the higher hit numbers.

True.

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13 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

You're ignoring the surge chart. Wookiees surge to hit, IRG don't. 3B/3W with surge averages 3 hits. 6B no surge also averages 3 hits. But the distribution graph on the 6B no surge has better chances of the higher hit numbers.

In my calculations both hit probality distributions are basiaclly the same. The wookiees are about 1% less likely to get 5 hits which is not at all significant. The same goes for their melee attacks both calculated without the heavy weapon upgrade. Royal Guard just has the better defense and added utility of the Guardian keyword and Entourage which is why they are played.

In general I feel like designers overvalue mobility on non-hero units. Scout, Infiltrate, Speeder - almost all units with these keywords are overcosted.

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8 minutes ago, Decarior said:

In my calculations both hit probality distributions are basiaclly the same. The wookiees are about 1% less likely to get 5 hits which is not at all significant

Yeah that’s roughly the same value I got. But I think it was 1% lower at the 4-hit level. Either way, extremely small which is what I meant by “very slightly worse”. It’s when you factor in Aggressive Tactics (which Imperial lists often have, while Rebel lists don’t) that IRG begin to shine much brighter.

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1 hour ago, R3dReVenge said:

BARC probably ~10-15 points overcosted. Mainly due to lack of synergy with the rest of the army. I would drop the base cost about 5 and each sidecar option by 5 as a starting point. 

 

This is an interesting example of how the point adjustments have impacted things that were in the pipeline but too far along to change points. The BARC seems to be costed in relation to Imperial speeder bikes. In fact, I remember complaints that compared the two and players argued that the BARC was undercosted compared to bikes. Bikes were then cut to be the same cost and the BARC now is much more obviously overcosted. I would argue that it was always overcosted, but the change in cost for bikes just makes it more obvious.

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I think we definitely see an adjustment to Wookies. Remember that the points adjustments are aimed strictly at tournament play and not casual play. Davey on the LVO stream said they specifically keep a sharp eye on what is doing well at tournaments and even more importantly, what isn't.

Wookie Warriors have been noticeably absent from high end competitive play and as such I fully expect to see them on the point adjustment chart this year. Scale on WW would be pretty awesome. 

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1 hour ago, Darth 2Face said:

This is an interesting example of how the point adjustments have impacted things that were in the pipeline but too far along to change points. The BARC seems to be costed in relation to Imperial speeder bikes. In fact, I remember complaints that compared the two and players argued that the BARC was undercosted compared to bikes. Bikes were then cut to be the same cost and the BARC now is much more obviously overcosted. I would argue that it was always overcosted, but the change in cost for bikes just makes it more obvious.

That is an interesting point, because you look at speeder bikes compared to the BARC and it doesn't look that off.  You get red saves versus surge to crit white.  Speader Bikes have a little less than double the fire power.  So it looks somewhat close.  Plus if you were to put the Barcs on the rebels I don't think anyone who say there was a problem with them.  However with clones being so expensive and BARCs not synergizing with them, they don't work well in that army.  In some ways they need a 5 point cost reduction but then again how much do you pay for a unit that has that mobility, decent effective health and a average attack.  

Edited by Uetur

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I'm a Wookie player (have 2 in my current list) so I absolutely won't mind if they make them a tad cheaper but I believe they're in the right spot. I can understand why people compare them to TTs but: 

A) they really are a very different kind of animal (pun totally intended) and should be used differently and

B) if anything, TTs are simply a bit too cheap.  

Things Wookies are great at:

1. Taking out Jedi.

2. Scaring Tauns away.

3. Killing Tauns that don't get the memo and try to approach anyway.

4. Grabbing contested objectives and running.

5. Infiltrating via rapid reinforcements in very inconvenient places.

6. Operating on the flanks as short-medium ranged skirmishers, much like fleet troopers except much tougher and virtually impossible to suppress.

7. Occassionally charging the enemy lines if the opportunity arises, especially if the enemy is already preoccupied with other melee units.

Things Wookies are NOT great at:

1. Charging right at the enemy lines "because they're a melee unit AMIRITE", especially if the enemy is not preoccupied with anything else and can just shoot them to pieces on their way in.

2. Pretending to be Tauntauns, except much slower and without the free dodge tokens. 

They're extremely dependable at what they do. Their effective HP isn't far behind Death Troopers or IRG and unlike those, they're unfazed by pierce, force choke, poison or anything else that bypasses defence dice, since their durability is already baked into their profile and defence dice are just a bonus. They have no bad defence rolls - just the usual ones (no blocks) and the good ones (yay! a block!) - and that's the just the kind of variance you're looking for when you want to get consistent results during tournaments.

Overall they carried me all the way to the 2nd place during grands and I don't mean "carried" as a hyperbole - I only had 1 unit of them in my list at the time and that was the only unit in my entire list that hasn't failed me a single time during the tournament, meeting and occasionally wildly exceeding expectations every single game. I've also only lost them once during the 5 games - and that was after they single-handedly killed Chewie and Han and then dealt 6 wounds to a Tauntaun squad, effectively saving the day and turning around a game that was definitely going south for me. I switched to using 2 squads of them after that tournament and so far I have no regrets.

As for truly overcosted units, I'd look at BARCs, Pathfinders and the rebel support choices. Every time I tried using them I felt I'm just not getting enough value for my points. Never had the same impression about Wookies, unless I did something stupid and got them killed for nothing, but that's true for any unit I guess. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Vector Strike said:

Droidekas. They should cost 80 to 85p. 100p for them is too much.

The best CIS list, Double the Fall, has 0 Droidekas and the AAT will outclass them completely (costing almost 2 Droidekas). The BX Commandos, with Scout 3, will hit the nail in the Droidekas' coffin.

Did the commandos get suppressive when nobody was looking?

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15 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Did the commandos get suppressive when nobody was looking?

I think the suppressive weapons on droidekas make them pretty dope. I use them much like I imagine some people are using wookies. I like using them to drop in on rapid reinforcements and just camp an objective I have control over or just put suppression on units to make my opponent changes focus to them. Having shields and 1/3 chance to block hits isn't terrible (in my experience) and has kept them in the game for at least 2 rounds (in my experience).

I'm wrong, they're vehicles. I have been duped by my own inability to read cards.

Edited by ricoratso

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1 minute ago, ricoratso said:

I think the suppressive weapons on droidekas make them pretty dope. I use them much like I imagine some people are using wookies. I like using them to drop in on rapid reinforcements and just camp an objective I have control over or just put suppression on units to make my opponent changes focus to them. Having shields and 1/3 chance to block hits isn't terrible (in my experience) and has kept them in the game for at least 2 rounds (in my experience).

vehicles can't drop in during rapid reinforcements

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Just now, lologrelol said:

vehicles can't drop in during rapid reinforcements

oh I'm a clown aren't I

 

EDIT: **** this makes me so sad, I really hate how droidekas are vehicles :(

 

Edited by ricoratso

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Wookies should have red defense dice in melee combat. Whenever they get in close, it's more effective for storm troopers to engage in melee combat and just curb stomp them. Red defense for melee would fix that issue.

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I never even bought Wookiee’s because they weren’t a part of the rebel alliance. Even the new republic wouldn’t send help to free them after ROTJ. It was chewy and Han calling in a lot of favors and like one or two other named Wookiees that escaped.

the Wookiee unit is clear Ewok erasure and I won’t stand for it! 

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I agree droidekas are overcosted. I don’t see a near future where they fit into a list at 100pts. 

Making them troopers instead of vehicles would maybe change that. If they could coordinate and drop in with rapid reinforcements then I’d be more likely to try to squeeze them in. 

I think Wookiees are appropriately costed, unfortunately. Again, a tough unit to find a good list for. I play them pretty regularly anyway with mixed results. Relentless instead of Charge would be a nice change.

Pathfinders went from “meh” to serviceable when their armament dropped to 0 and duck and cover dropped to 4.  They do their job and do it well for a reasonable price. Previously I couldn’t justify choosing them over Wookiees but am now more likely to take Pathfinders. 

I agree that upgrade costs on the Landspeeder make it tough to run. Now that the airspeeder dropped I could see them coming down too. 

 

 

 

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ROTJ should have been set on Kashyyk.

2 hours ago, TylerTT said:

I never even bought Wookiee’s because they weren’t a part of the rebel alliance. Even the new republic wouldn’t send help to free them after ROTJ. It was chewy and Han calling in a lot of favors and like one or two other named Wookiees that escaped.

the Wookiee unit is clear Ewok erasure and I won’t stand for it! 

 

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I also agree that the Barc is over priced for what it does. A few points cheaper and I might be interested in experimenting more, but it just doesn't do enough for me to justify it over another squad of clones.

 

T-47- I know it got a bit of love with the errata, but I still think it is too expensive for what it does. Perhaps with new pilots or hard points that could change.

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I think Droidekas are well costed.
In a one on one match up, they can take down a lot of troop types in a firefight.
Sit them behind heavy cover, something their smaller frames will find relatively easy, and they are a very tough unit to shift.
They also have the opportunity to switch to speed mode to reposition. A good general should never have to use this feature, but it is a good ability if you position them too far from the action.
Because droids have access to a lot of cheap troops, having 100pt vehicles isn't too much of an inhibition.

The T-47 is now well costed.
AT-RTs are now well costed.
The problem with these vehicles is that they need to be taken in groups to really saturate the battlefield with armor, and they don't take objectives. But that much armor in your face, or hitting your flanks can be really tough to fight.

Wookies and bikes are severely overlooked IMO. They are just hard to use in a straight up, head to head firefight.

I think a lot of the issues people keep coming back to is raw power + raw defence vs maneuverability.
We seem to value these qualities above the movement options of another unit, or the ability of a unit to negate terrain.
We also value a unit's cheapness and their ability to take objectives.

These issues stem from terrain set-up, objectives, and in terms of points - the nature of alternate activation style games.

Maybe we just aren't using enough terrain on our battlefields?
Maybe there's just not enough LOS blockers?
Not enough movement hindering terrain?
Maybe vehicles also need to be able to take objectives?
Maybe impact should have some added affect against trooper unit types, to make those weapons more powerful? To make the big vehicles a bit better.

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15 minutes ago, Alpharaider47 said:

I also agree that the Barc is over priced for what it does. A few points cheaper and I might be interested in experimenting more, but it just doesn't do enough for me to justify it over another squad of clones.

 

T-47- I know it got a bit of love with the errata, but I still think it is too expensive for what it does. Perhaps with new pilots or hard points that could change.

So, what would you price 3.75 average damage, 4 feet of reach, and an effective 10.5 health at? (Bearing in mind that hitting that requires 84 dice rolls on average with no impact)

130/120/110/100?

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26 minutes ago, Derrault said:

So, what would you price 3.75 average damage, 4 feet of reach, and an effective 10.5 health at? (Bearing in mind that hitting that requires 84 dice rolls on average with no impact)

130/120/110/100?

<Deleted due to snarkiness>

Edited by SoonerTed

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6 hours ago, Lightrock said:

I'm a Wookie player (have 2 in my current list) so I absolutely won't mind if they make them a tad cheaper but I believe they're in the right spot. I can understand why people compare them to TTs but: 

A) they really are a very different kind of animal (pun totally intended) and should be used differently and

B) if anything, TTs are simply a bit too cheap.  

Things Wookies are great at:

1. Taking out Jedi.

2. Scaring Tauns away.

3. Killing Tauns that don't get the memo and try to approach anyway.

4. Grabbing contested objectives and running.

5. Infiltrating via rapid reinforcements in very inconvenient places.

6. Operating on the flanks as short-medium ranged skirmishers, much like fleet troopers except much tougher and virtually impossible to suppress.

7. Occassionally charging the enemy lines if the opportunity arises, especially if the enemy is already preoccupied with other melee units.

Things Wookies are NOT great at:

1. Charging right at the enemy lines "because they're a melee unit AMIRITE", especially if the enemy is not preoccupied with anything else and can just shoot them to pieces on their way in.

2. Pretending to be Tauntauns, except much slower and without the free dodge tokens. 

They're extremely dependable at what they do. Their effective HP isn't far behind Death Troopers or IRG and unlike those, they're unfazed by pierce, force choke, poison or anything else that bypasses defence dice, since their durability is already baked into their profile and defence dice are just a bonus. They have no bad defence rolls - just the usual ones (no blocks) and the good ones (yay! a block!) - and that's the just the kind of variance you're looking for when you want to get consistent results during tournaments.

Overall they carried me all the way to the 2nd place during grands and I don't mean "carried" as a hyperbole - I only had 1 unit of them in my list at the time and that was the only unit in my entire list that hasn't failed me a single time during the tournament, meeting and occasionally wildly exceeding expectations every single game. I've also only lost them once during the 5 games - and that was after they single-handedly killed Chewie and Han and then dealt 6 wounds to a Tauntaun squad, effectively saving the day and turning around a game that was definitely going south for me. I switched to using 2 squads of them after that tournament and so far I have no regrets.

As for truly overcosted units, I'd look at BARCs, Pathfinders and the rebel support choices. Every time I tried using them I felt I'm just not getting enough value for my points. Never had the same impression about Wookies, unless I did something stupid and got them killed for nothing, but that's true for any unit I guess. 

 

 

I like the way you talk about wookie! They are very good at taking objectives and as Trooper they can benefit of the ability of Leia, free move, free dodge... But I will be in love if ffg decide to reduce a but the price, maybe for the heavy

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