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Uetur

What units are now clearly overcosted?

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For my casual games I like to make lists and just try different units out.   I was putting together a list in my mind of earlier design decisions that just didn't work out and we have clear power creep.  Where there are clearly mirrors and or other units that are far superior to the core unit.  

Wookie Warriors are my first unit that on paper looks solid but in relation to its mirror and/or other units filling similar roles is way behind.  Their heavy weapon upgrade is brutally expensive, their keyword abilities are terrain dependent meaning some maps they could be great and others useless, their guns are range 2 and finally weirdly enough they aren't that scary in melee.  Pierce 1 when used against them basically says take all wounds.  

Other units filling similar roles:  Tauntauns, I shouldn't have to explain why they are superior.  Chewie who himself had a point reduction and is cheaper than a full wookie warrior unit and doesn't lose effectiveness as he takes wounds.

Mirror:  Imperial Royal Guard are usually much better because of 3 reason.  Their heavy weapon costs 10 points less, they can directly counter a jedi with immune to melee pierce and guardian 2 allows them to protect other units in your armies.  Generally no matter what terrain or army you are facing they can perform a valuable role.  

What units do you have on your lists?

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12 minutes ago, SoonerTed said:

Wookies also have more health than Imperial Guards, have expert climber, and unhindered.

I think he knows that, particularly the keywords:

"their keyword abilities are terrain dependent meaning some maps they could be great and others useless, "

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6 minutes ago, SoonerTed said:

Wookies also have more health than Imperial Guards, have expert climber, and unhindered.

When the opposing unit is far superior in firepower and durability, movement Keywords don’t really add much.

23 minutes ago, Uetur said:

For my casual games I like to make lists and just try different units out.   I was putting together a list in my mind of earlier design decisions that just didn't work out and we have clear power creep.  Where there are clearly mirrors and or other units that are far superior to the core unit.  

Wookie Warriors are my first unit that on paper looks solid but in relation to its mirror and/or other units filling similar roles is way behind.  Their heavy weapon upgrade is brutally expensive, their keyword abilities are terrain dependent meaning some maps they could be great and others useless, their guns are range 2 and finally weirdly enough they aren't that scary in melee.  Pierce 1 when used against them basically says take all wounds.  

Other units filling similar roles:  Tauntauns, I shouldn't have to explain why they are superior.  Chewie who himself had a point reduction and is cheaper than a full wookie warrior unit and doesn't lose effectiveness as he takes wounds.

Mirror:  Imperial Royal Guard are usually much better because of 3 reason.  Their heavy weapon costs 10 points less, they can directly counter a jedi with immune to melee pierce and guardian 2 allows them to protect other units in your armies.  Generally no matter what terrain or army you are facing they can perform a valuable role.  

What units do you have on your lists?

There are many Rebel units that need a points reduction, some Imperial too, but mostly Rebel. Take a look at the Rebel Landspeeder. Most of its upgrades are 30+ points. A fully kitted out Landspeeder is just as expensive as a fully kitted Imperial tank (the unit it was released with). Those two units are not equal and oddly the tanks upgrades are only around 18 points. When the two factions started, the Rebels were known as the “cheap” ones, but the newer units completely ended that.

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6 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

How so?

More hitpoints and better mobility (on a board that has the proper amount of terrain).

It takes three wounds to harm the offensive output of wookies, but only 2 for Imperial Guards.

Add to this Wookies lend themselves to playing offense more than Imperial Guards, Wookies are a unit that causes more trouble for the opponent.

Edited by SoonerTed

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Wookies are an incredibly niche unit whose best role is to grab and run with objectives or to hold behind heavy cover and being fed dodge tokens. 12 HP takes a while to chew through if it's being properly supported despite the crap defense. The other role, which has been superseded by Tauntauns admittedly, is to nuke frail commanders hiding behind large obstacles on the board. If you plan on taking Wookies you'll want to bank on hostile environment or rapid reinforcements showing up since they love those. Battle lines is a good deployment for them as it spreads the opponent out and Wookies don't mind not being in range of a commander. The combination of Battle Lines and Hostile Environment has won me games with Wookies simply by them being able to perform better outside of a courage bubble.

The problem Wookies face is twofold. You don't want to be using a 100+ SF unit to sit around on an objective, that's what corp is for. In the SF role, they take up the valued SF slots that are normally used for strike teams or Pathfinders if you're feeling lucky. With Tauntauns being cheaper, taking up a less valuable slot, and doing much better offensively, Wookies don't have much of anything going for them anymore.

Edit: If I was to buff Wookies, I'd give them Scale to start. Reliable 1 would be neat, but I don't think that's appropriate. 

Edited by thepopemobile100

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10 minutes ago, SoonerTed said:

More hitpoints and better mobility (on a board that has the proper amount of terrain).

It takes three wounds to harm the offensive output of wookies, but only 2 for Imperial Guards.

Add to this Wookies lend themselves to playing offense more than Imperial Guards, Wookies are a unit that causes more trouble for the opponent.

They have fewer effective hitpoints than Royal Guard given the fairly massive disparity between a white defense die and a red defense die. I've always had more trouble removing my opponent's Royal Guards than they ever have had getting rid of my Wookiees.

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17 minutes ago, SoonerTed said:

More hitpoints

Raw hit points is not the best way to compare the staying power of various units because it doesn't factor in their other defenses. A full unit of IRG has 8 wounds and a 3/6 save, which means they have 16 expected wounds. Wookiees have 12 wounds and a 1/6 save, which means 14.4 expected wounds. So IRG are definitely more defensive.

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17 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

When the opposing unit is far superior in firepower and durability, movement Keywords don’t really add much.

There are many Rebel units that need a points reduction, some Imperial too, but mostly Rebel. Take a look at the Rebel Landspeeder. Most of its upgrades are 30+ points. A fully kitted out Landspeeder is just as expensive as a fully kitted Imperial tank (the unit it was released with). Those two units are not equal and oddly the tanks upgrades are only around 18 points. When the two factions started, the Rebels were known as the “cheap” ones, but the newer units completely ended that.

I recently played a landspeeder/R2 build and it really struck me how out of balance the points are when compared to other units. The Hardpoints were where I saw a real problem. The Mark II Medium blaster has fixed front, 4B attack for 34 points with surge to hit. The AT-RT has the Rotary Blaster with 5B with surge to crit, originally for 30 points and now reduced to 20. That makes the landspeeder Mark II overcosted even before the Rotary Blaster received a points drop. It's things like that that make me think that the designers are just guessing at points.

(On a side note, I did find that the landspeeder was well worth the points when the hardpoint was left off. It does serve a very different role though with this different build.)

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3 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

Raw hit points is not the best way to compare the staying power of various units because it doesn't factor in their other defenses. A full unit of IRG has 8 wounds and a 3/6 save, which means they have 16 expected wounds. Wookiees have 12 wounds and a 1/6 save, which means 14.4 expected wounds. So IRG are definitely more defensive.

A full unit of Wookies also has a range 3 weapon.

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1 minute ago, SoonerTed said:

A full unit of Wookies also has a range 3 weapon.

Yup, 2 dice at range 3. Impact and Pierce are good keywords, but that pool is very lacking especially if the defender has cover. Now, range 2 shooting with the Wookiees is quite good (better than the IRG, I'd say). And it's arguably better than their melee (the considerations are Pierce versus the protection of being engaged). I think taking that range 3 shot versus moving closer is rarely the right answer.

But that's a separate question from their defenses.

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Republic: ARC Troopers, BARC.

 

I predict ARC troopers will be seen frequently during release and then they will be shelved for other options (I'n not referring to ARC strike teams). 

BARC probably ~10-15 points overcosted. Mainly due to lack of synergy with the rest of the army. I would drop the base cost about 5 and each sidecar option by 5 as a starting point. 

 

CIS: Droidekas

 

Droidekas: Very fun and beautiful model. But on the field, they just don't seem to cut it for their price. I think the problems are: #1. Unable to capture objectives. #2. Doesn't synergize with Coordinate Trooper ability. #3. Damage output is underwhelming.

I would like to see a two Droideka-Only Comms upgrade. 

#1 Maybe something that gives them the ability to capture objectives and increase shield capacity by ~1-2. This gives them a dedicated capturing objective role. ~10 points.

#2 Something that increases their damage output. Maybe, something that adds a black attack die per model AND after the Droideka attacks, a unit within range 1, of the attacked unit and that is in LOS of the Droideka gains 1 suppression token. ~10 points

 

 

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Wookies are redundant. There is almost no job a cheaper Tauntaun unit cannot do better in the context of a rebel list. The unit leader isn't much smaller than a Tauntaun, so it is even not easier to hide them.

Tauntauns are faster, tougher and have a superior damage output.

Wookies are for fans of the chrismas special only.

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3 minutes ago, SoonerTed said:

A unit of 3 Wookies shoots worse than the IRG at the same cost, though.

True, very slightly worse. They average the same, but the IRG have a better curve. And if you factor in that the IRG probably have Aggressive Tactics backing them up, they are much better.

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4 minutes ago, M.Mustermann said:

Wookies are redundant. There is almost no job a cheaper Tauntaun unit cannot do better in the context of a rebel list. The unit leader isn't much smaller than a Tauntaun, so it is even not easier to hide them.

Tauntauns are faster, tougher and have a superior damage output.

Wookies are for fans of the chrismas special only.

The better question is: Is this are Tauntauns overpowered or Wookies underpowered?

Edited by R3dReVenge

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3 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

True, very slightly worse. They average the same, but the IRG have a better curve. And if you factor in that the IRG probably have Aggressive Tactics backing them up, they are much better.

3 black and 3 white dice do not average to the same number of hits 

 

Just now, R3dReVenge said:

The better question is: Is this because Tauntauns are overpowered or Wookies underpowered?

Taun Tauns are a broken unit.

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1 minute ago, SoonerTed said:

3 black and 3 white dice do not average to the same number of hits 

You're ignoring the surge chart. Wookiees surge to hit, IRG don't. 3B/3W with surge averages 3 hits. 6B no surge also averages 3 hits. But the distribution graph on the 6B no surge has better chances of the higher hit numbers.

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