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Blail Blerg

When are bombs ever truly worth their value?

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I like that this thread has come around to actually-reasonable discussion of bombs and mines.

//

Anyhow: Clusters vs Proximity Mines

In terms of average damage:

  • One Prox Overlap > One Cluster Overlaps
  • One Prox Overlap = Two Cluster Overlaps
  • One Prox Overlap < Three Cluster Overlaps < Two Prox Overlaps

If they were equal points, I can see an argument for Cluster Mines, since it's trying to do it all in one drop, trying to swing for the fences.  That's kind of cool flavor.  Clusters become the big highroll chance, the attempt for one perfect placement to utterly devastate an opponent.  Proximity would be the more consistent version, but less explosive potential.

But paying more for Clusters, for less total damage, just doesn't seem worthwhile.

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I had always intended to try clusters with Boba - Fenn for the extended version of it, but after the weekend at a hyperspace tournament I feel like over half the protons I dropped were just amazing,  so I'm not sure I want to even look at clusters as they are. 

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On 2/28/2020 at 3:55 PM, theBitterFig said:

Clusters become the big highroll chance, the attempt for one perfect placement to utterly devastate an opponent. 

I think this is why they'll always be too expensive. There is potential there to just wipe out the entire front row of a swarm or put unrecoverable hurt on a centrepiece large base. The chance is very slim and situational, but since it exists, it may mean they'll always be impractically costed.

Bombs can swing games but a single perfect Cluster could just win. If the stars align, a month of Sunday's has passed, the cows come home and find a lucky penny en route.

Oh look, a flying pig!

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So let's discuss the other side of the coin.

Let's say I'm playing 5 X vs Bofrost. How do I limit the usefulness of those 4 proton bomb drops?

At some point whether I fly in a block or with a spread out converging pattern i arrive at a point where all my ships are at range 1-2 and the "best" move would be to K-turn / talon behind a firespray for at least 2 of them, keeping in mind that they can always 4 fwd to try to leapfrog the pack.

 

Some ideas :

bring big rocks to constrain the bomber options

play near the board edge

fly in 2 elements and disengage the close one, accepting that loosing a a few shots is better than eating a proton.

other ?

 

Do you guys have a streamed battle report where I can watch  what you would consider a successful mitigation of the threat of proton bombs by lower initiative ships? 

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Sabine on a K wing is a beautiful thing.... has won me games. Don' t know if it is tier 1 competitive, but IF I went to worlds last year I would have flown it.

Miranda Doni (43)
Diamond-Boron Missiles (6)
Han Solo (14)
Sabine Wren (3)
Proton Bombs (5)
Seismic Charges (3)
Shield Upgrade (4)

Esege Tuketu (45)
Barrage Rockets (8)
Perceptive Copilot (8)
Seismic Charges (3)

Wedge Antilles (55)
Crack Shot (1)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)
Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

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2 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

Sabine on a K wing is a beautiful thing.... has won me games. Don' t know if it is tier 1 competitive, but IF I went to worlds last year I would have flown it.

Miranda Doni (43)
Diamond-Boron Missiles (6)
Han Solo (14)
Sabine Wren (3)
Proton Bombs (5)
Seismic Charges (3)
Shield Upgrade (4)

Esege Tuketu (45)
Barrage Rockets (8)
Perceptive Copilot (8)
Seismic Charges (3)

Wedge Antilles (55)
Crack Shot (1)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)
Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

How does something like this play? 

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47 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

How does something like this play? 

 

Very defensively. Turn 0 losses are possible. It relies heavily on rock placement and goading your opponent into the rocks so you can use them as bombing lanes. Opponents always see Essege as the win condition as he hands out the focuses, but the win condition is Miranda as she is the end game ship that can be near impossible to kill. 

Miranda, at i7, can regen or boost her attack then double tap with the missiles. The Diamond missiles are double modded during the early game with Essege and are great against swarms. Wedge gets double mods from Essege as well. Sometimes Essege (often times) he doesn't have a focus for his attack, but Miranda and Wedge have already done a lot of damage by then.

I usually fly Miranda on the outside edge, Essege just behind and off her flank, then Wedge follows from behind both.

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6 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

 

Very defensively. Turn 0 losses are possible. It relies heavily on rock placement and goading your opponent into the rocks so you can use them as bombing lanes. Opponents always see Essege as the win condition as he hands out the focuses, but the win condition is Miranda as she is the end game ship that can be near impossible to kill. 

Miranda, at i7, can regen or boost her attack then double tap with the missiles. The Diamond missiles are double modded during the early game with Essege and are great against swarms. Wedge gets double mods from Essege as well. Sometimes Essege (often times) he doesn't have a focus for his attack, but Miranda and Wedge have already done a lot of damage by then.

I usually fly Miranda on the outside edge, Essege just behind and off her flank, then Wedge follows from behind both.

I see. So the missiles can shoot forward. 

 

When/how often do you slam? 

 

Do you spend a lot of time running away? Or do you converge from multiple angles? (Making a cross-fire)

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2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Miranda Doni (43)
Diamond-Boron Missiles (6)
Han Solo (14)
Sabine Wren (3)
Proton Bombs (5)
Seismic Charges (3)
Shield Upgrade (4)

That's 78 points of Miranda. Given that her regen only works when unshielded, is that extra shield really worth it? And does doubling up on Bombs really pay off vs reloading protons or shielding off bomblets?

She seems like just such a big juicy target I wouldn't really hesitate to leave the other two alone and burn her down, but I don't really understand how it plays so I can't say for sure. I'd love to see a viable Miranda (never touched the K-Wing in 1.0), so I'm very curious about this.

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9 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

That's 78 points of Miranda. Given that her regen only works when unshielded, is that extra shield really worth it? And does doubling up on Bombs really pay off vs reloading protons or shielding off bomblets?

She seems like just such a big juicy target I wouldn't really hesitate to leave the other two alone and burn her down, but I don't really understand how it plays so I can't say for sure. I'd love to see a viable Miranda (never touched the K-Wing in 1.0), so I'm very curious about this.

You got the quote rwrong, gotta ask someone else. 

(I think the answer to both of those is yes) 

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4 hours ago, Wiredin said:

Sabine on a K wing is a beautiful thing.... has won me games. Don' t know if it is tier 1 competitive, but IF I went to worlds last year I would have flown it.

Miranda Doni (43)
Diamond-Boron Missiles (6)
Han Solo (14)
Sabine Wren (3)
Proton Bombs (5)
Seismic Charges (3)
Shield Upgrade (4)

Esege Tuketu (45)
Barrage Rockets (8)
Perceptive Copilot (8)
Seismic Charges (3)

Wedge Antilles (55)
Crack Shot (1)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)
Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

This is a list I am completely convinced is at least 200% better than it looks.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Wiredin said:

Miranda Doni (43)
Diamond-Boron Missiles (6)
Han Solo (14)
Sabine Wren (3)
Proton Bombs (5)
Seismic Charges (3)
Shield Upgrade (4)

Esege Tuketu (45)
Barrage Rockets (8)
Perceptive Copilot (8)
Seismic Charges (3)

Wedge Antilles (55)
Crack Shot (1)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)
Total: 198

My first thought is that Han Gunner on Miranda to get an I7 two die shot seems not worth 14 points. Drop him for Proton Torps on Wedge. With Esege able to pass out a focus, Wedge gets a double mod protorp which is gross. You'll likely get much more value out of those 13 points than the 14 point Han. Also, Shield upgrade seems an odd choice, and just makes Miranda cost more. Drop that for proton bombs on Esege, perhaps?

 

Edited by 5050Saint
When did this thread actually become about bombs?

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4 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

My first thought is that Han Gunner on Miranda to get an I7 two die shot seems not worth 14 points. Drop him for Proton Torps on Wedge. With Esege able to pass out a focus, Wedge gets a double mod protorp which is gross. You'll likely get much more value out of those 13 points than the 14 point Han. Also, Shield upgrade seems an odd choice, and just makes Miranda cost more. Drop that for proton bombs on Esege, perhaps?

 

han allows miranda to regen before she gets shot at. combined with shield upgrade gives her 4 turns of 3-4 dice attacks at i7. I've been tweaking this for a year, the double tap/i7 attack has been much more valuable than a proton torp. 

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20 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I see. So the missiles can shoot forward. 

 

When/how often do you slam? 

 

Do you spend a lot of time running away? Or do you converge from multiple angles? (Making a cross-fire)

yes missiles shoot forward. often the arc is side to side. I thought it would be tough to get the double tap off but it often isn't... and then if you get surrounded (swarms) you can still fire once out each side which is nice. 

18 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

That's 78 points of Miranda. Given that her regen only works when unshielded, is that extra shield really worth it? And does doubling up on Bombs really pay off vs reloading protons or shielding off bomblets?

She seems like just such a big juicy target I wouldn't really hesitate to leave the other two alone and burn her down, but I don't really understand how it plays so I can't say for sure. I'd love to see a viable Miranda (never touched the K-Wing in 1.0), so I'm very curious about this.

Originally I ran with bomblets and I didn't like it at all. I was hurting Miranda both for the added attack and the bomb reload. I usually don't get a chance to reload until the late game as I'm keeping the K-wings in close to the rocks/engagement until they need to disengage. It's a control list for sure.  

16 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

This is a list I am completely convinced is at least 200% better than it looks.

Originally I built it as an "well I wonder how this works?" but after the first time out and how close the game was against one of our best players I started tweaking. I had adv slam on both, I had bomblets, was running a different X-wing (don't remember which), at one time I had regen on Wedge, had the super bomb on Miranda... I went down all of the normal recommendations and more. Slowly tweaking it over the last season, trying many different things. Ultimately this became the final version of the list. Took a store champ with it, took second in our worlds prep tournament. It's my main extended list now, and I've been asked not to play it during casual nights by quite a few players because it feels NPE at times with how hard it is to take down Miranda and how nasty it feels to get thrown from bomb to bomb with Sabine (something I've done a few times.... but it takes a lot of effort! Nothing like clipping a ship with a seismic charge, then tractoring them into another seismic. then giving them an ion and proton bombing them the next turn. Anakin died very nicely thank you.)

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8 hours ago, Wiredin said:

yes missiles shoot forward. often the arc is side to side. I thought it would be tough to get the double tap off but it often isn't... and then if you get surrounded (swarms) you can still fire once out each side which is nice. 

Originally I ran with bomblets and I didn't like it at all. I was hurting Miranda both for the added attack and the bomb reload. I usually don't get a chance to reload until the late game as I'm keeping the K-wings in close to the rocks/engagement until they need to disengage. It's a control list for sure.  

Originally I built it as an "well I wonder how this works?" but after the first time out and how close the game was against one of our best players I started tweaking. I had adv slam on both, I had bomblets, was running a different X-wing (don't remember which), at one time I had regen on Wedge, had the super bomb on Miranda... I went down all of the normal recommendations and more. Slowly tweaking it over the last season, trying many different things. Ultimately this became the final version of the list. Took a store champ with it, took second in our worlds prep tournament. It's my main extended list now, and I've been asked not to play it during casual nights by quite a few players because it feels NPE at times with how hard it is to take down Miranda and how nasty it feels to get thrown from bomb to bomb with Sabine (something I've done a few times.... but it takes a lot of effort! Nothing like clipping a ship with a seismic charge, then tractoring them into another seismic. then giving them an ion and proton bombing them the next turn. Anakin died very nicely thank you.)

Does Sabine timing allow you to tractor into another yet unexplored bomb? (Same turn) 

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9 hours ago, Wiredin said:

han allows miranda to regen before she gets shot at.

Wow, I didn't even see that interaction. Nice!

48 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Does Sabine timing allow you to tractor into another yet unexplored bomb?

Yup!

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42 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Wow, I didn't even see that interaction. Nice!

Yep, when they mentioned double tap, my ears perked up. Granted, it seems like this might be one of those lists that kinda wants the enemy to chase them through rocks. 

There's a bunch of lists like this and over 10-15 games of practice, I've learned how to avoid doing that and suddenly found many of these lists have their efficiency drop hugely. Not even need to do the whole final salvo thing, just slow roll and take cleaner fights. 

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14 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yep, when they mentioned double tap, my ears perked up. Granted, it seems like this might be one of those lists that kinda wants the enemy to chase them through rocks. 

There's a bunch of lists like this and over 10-15 games of practice, I've learned how to avoid doing that and suddenly found many of these lists have their efficiency drop hugely. Not even need to do the whole final salvo thing, just slow roll and take cleaner fights. 

it's having a plan against those lists in place that really help. My toughest battle was vs a 'modern' version of the Soontir/Whisper/Redline list. I ended up winning that one but it wasn't easy because he wouldn't fall for my traps. This guy always knows how to counter my stuff too... gave me my first loss with my 5 procket A-wings too! 

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2 hours ago, Wiredin said:

it's having a plan against those lists in place that really help. My toughest battle was vs a 'modern' version of the Soontir/Whisper/Redline list. I ended up winning that one but it wasn't easy because he wouldn't fall for my traps. This guy always knows how to counter my stuff too... gave me my first loss with my 5 procket A-wings too! 

I haven't had time to see what happens when my opponent learns how to counter my counter though. Albeit my ships are more maneuverable, so I suggest difficulty in going up a level in counterplay is now at 70%, (but as you can see 30% doable). 

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