Jump to content
Haleron

How to challenge a character with 8 proficiency dice

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

That may be what you meant, but you referred to them as "actual ranks" later on in your comment. (underlined for emphasis)

 

This...

You @Tramp Graphics

contrast actual ranks vs enhancing a die pool, claiming that only the later was being done.

Edited by EliasWindrider

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/16/2020 at 6:31 PM, EliasWindrider said:

This...

You @Tramp Graphics

contrast actual ranks vs enhancing a die pool, claiming that only the later was being done.

And I also further clarified what I meant. 

To quote:

"It is the limit, at least in regards to actual ranks that you can buy through XP. "

Did you miss that part of the statement? You have a habit of taking my statements out of context. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And I also further clarified what I meant. 

To quote:

"It is the limit, at least in regards to actual ranks that you can buy through XP. "

Did you miss that part of the statement? You have a habit of taking my statements out of context. 

Regardless of what you "meant", your second statement was just plain flat out wrong... it wasn't just a method of enhancing a die pool.  The only context that would have mitigated it would have been to prepend the statement with "Don't take this literally, but..."

And for someone complaining about others ignoring the context of what was said, you seem to be conveniently omitting the context of sturn's statement, which you purported to answer, in an attempt to avoid being wrong.  I did not ignore that context.

Edited by EliasWindrider

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Regardless of what you "meant", your second statement was just plain flat out wrong... it wasn't just a method of enhancing a die pool.  The only context that would have mitigated it would have been to prepend the statement with "Don't take this literally, but..."

And for someone complaining about others ignoring the context of what was said, you seem to be conveniently omitting the context of sturn's statement, which you purported to answer, in an attempt to avoid being wrong.  I did not ignore that context.

No. The second part of the statement is simply an extension of the first, with the intent simply to differentiate between ranks in a skill vs other ways to enhance the dice pool. As @P-47 Thunderbolt said, we don't disagree on the actual rule, so why are you trying to nit-pick my statement? The rule is simple, you can only buy up to 5 ranks in any given skill using Experience Points.

That does not discount Cybernetics. It's only talking about the limit imposed on what you can purchase with Experience Points. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. The second part of the statement is simply an extension of the first, with the intent simply to differentiate between ranks in a skill vs other ways to enhance the dice pool. As @P-47 Thunderbolt said, we don't disagree on the actual rule, so why are you trying to nit-pick my statement? The rule is simple, you can only buy up to 5 ranks in any given skill using Experience Points.

That does not discount Cybernetics. It's only talking about the limit imposed on what you can purchase with Experience Points. 

Which is why your statements didn't address sturn's statement/question about what the max total skills ranks allowed by RAW is.

To answer your question, the reason I spoke up in the first place was not to nitpick but to actually address sturn's point because you did not.  

It wasn't about you.

But of course you need to argue against any post that happens to contradict one of your statements or even imply it isn't 100% accurate.

And yes, as @P-47 Thunderbolt noted my habitual response to Tramp trying to argue an incorrect point is to pummel him into the proverbial ground with logical arguments.  I'll try to keep that impulse in check moving forward.

Edited by EliasWindrider

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Which is why your statements didn't address sturn's statement/question about what the max total skills ranks allowed by RAW is.

To answer your question, the reason I spoke up in the first place was not to nitpick but to actually address sturn's point because you did not.  

It wasn't about you.

But of course you need to argue against any post that happens to contradict one of your statements or even imply it isn't 100% accurate.

And yes, as @P-47 Thunderbolt noted my habitual response to Tramp trying to argue an incorrect point is to pummel him into the proverbial ground with logical arguments.  I'll try to keep that impulse in check moving forward.

Yes, it does answer his question. @Sturn asked if there was a limit to skill ranks, and yes, there is, specifically ranks purchased with XP. This was his exact statement:

On 2/11/2020 at 9:53 PM, Sturn said:

I had always assumed this WAS the limit, no house rule needed. In the skill descriptions, there is an explanation of each skill level. It stops at 5. I doesn't say "5 or higher". The description of 5 speaks of few obtaining this mastery level.

My response in direct answer to that question that yes, it is the limit, at least in regards to ranks purchased through XP.  @Sturn even "liked" my response. If it "address his question, then why would he "like" it?

The rest of my post was referring to other posters' referring to various other means of boosting a skill check beyond that limit, such as Talents, Signature Abilities, attachments, etc. not how to increase the actual ranks in the skill. 

That statement is not wrong, nor did it fail to address his concerns. You're looking for an argument. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/16/2020 at 1:25 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes. But that's why I specifically clarified ranks you can buy with XP. I know there are enhancements that can boost that, but you cannot actually spend XP to raise a skill rank above 5. 

True this is actually stated in the book.  Its up to the gm if he enables power gamers or not. If they load themselves up with cybernetics ion weapons can easily neutralize them.  Make them understand that though it might seem they are getting much stronger there are downsides to it and don't just tell them make them experience it.  Also i know that you can build a cybernetic and invest triumphs to make them invulnerable to ion damage. Don't just give them that.  Have them only able to obtain such quality cybernetics by making it themselfs.  Add red dice to their rolls buy spending destiny points, yes you as a gm can flip destiny points to do that.  If they roll a despair you decide how that effects the item they crafted. Look at the crafting rules it gives you examples.  There is a chart for each type of item they are building that tells them how they use advantages, triumphs, threat and despares.


If they want to keep rerolling  till they get the rolls they want Dont let them. Make them wait time in game before they can gather more materials and have actual time to make new and better ones. So plan it to where they can only try every 4 games sessions to make another roll. The game and story comes first have them and the other group be put in situation where he cant just spend his whole time rolling and making god items.

You the GM you have the power to force them to play the story more than just power game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/1/2020 at 5:23 AM, Metalghost said:

True this is actually stated in the book.  Its up to the gm if he enables power gamers or not. If they load themselves up with cybernetics ion weapons can easily neutralize them.  Make them understand that though it might seem they are getting much stronger there are downsides to it and don't just tell them make them experience it.  Also i know that you can build a cybernetic and invest triumphs to make them invulnerable to ion damage. Don't just give them that.  Have them only able to obtain such quality cybernetics by making it themselfs.  Add red dice to their rolls buy spending destiny points, yes you as a gm can flip destiny points to do that.  If they roll a despair you decide how that effects the item they crafted. Look at the crafting rules it gives you examples.  There is a chart for each type of item they are building that tells them how they use advantages, triumphs, threat and despares.


If they want to keep rerolling  till they get the rolls they want Dont let them. Make them wait time in game before they can gather more materials and have actual time to make new and better ones. So plan it to where they can only try every 4 games sessions to make another roll. The game and story comes first have them and the other group be put in situation where he cant just spend his whole time rolling and making god items.

You the GM you have the power to force them to play the story more than just power game.

Yep. Not only that, but all of that material costs Credits. Make them spend it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m going to limit my answer to combat ideas, this player clearly wants to fight so you need answers that help you give him a good fight. I’m sure you’re able to create encounters that prevent combat, but the player will get annoyed if you you’re doing that all the time!

1. Use Ion Weapons, they have cybernetics that are vulnerable, once that arm or those legs are inactive they suddenly can’t move or hold a weapon at all, the massive characteristic is meaningless.

2. Big minion groups... and I mean big. Each minion beyond the first adds a skill rank, skill ranks are capped at 5. So only minions up to the 6th change the dice pool, beyond 6 though and you begin to build in a buffer before the skill goes down! So if you have a minion group of 16 then this walking nuke of a character has to kill 10 of them before reducing their dice pool.

3. Use the Squad rules from the AoR gm screen. The PC could hit for 25 damage on your lovely NPC and it is still only going to remove one minion...

4. Remember, only one Crit is given per hit with an attack. If they only hit a minion group once they only remove one extra minion with a crit.

5. Use vehicles, The battle of Scarrif was scary because the rebels had nothing to fight back with against the ATAT’s. Give this character a chance to be the hero, holding off hoards of enemies whilst the rest of the group have to deal with the big plot problem. This can be all sorts of things from stealing to rescuing to escaping.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, you can use the Phalanx rules in Collapse of the Republic (or is it Rise of the Separatists?) that allow for endless waves of opponents without it getting to burdensome.  Add this to making the encounter about something else - the combat focused need to keep the endless waves at bay while other characters perform the essential task (diplomacy, slicing the computer, mechanics check to rig up the sabotage, etc).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Also, you can use the Phalanx rules in Collapse of the Republic (or is it Rise of the Separatists?) that allow for endless waves of opponents without it getting to burdensome.  Add this to making the encounter about something else - the combat focused need to keep the endless waves at bay while other characters perform the essential task (diplomacy, slicing the computer, mechanics check to rig up the sabotage, etc).

Droid Phalanxes and Squad Rules were both in RotS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just came across this topic.  Not that you can't have any house rules that you want; but, the books are pretty clear that the maximum skill roll you can have would be 5 proficiency + 1 ability.  This would be derived from an ability of 6 and a skill level of 5.

I come to this because, if you read (in my case) the Force & Destiny core rule book, it states on p102 under "Improving Characteristics" the following:  "During the course of play, no characteristic can be increased above 6."   So while it is true that you are limited to a cap of 5 during XP expenditure during development, it is clear that there is also a total cap of 6.  Meaning that once you hit that you can no longer improve in this area.  So additional abilities such as a cybernetic implant is not good enough to actually improve your character past what he/she already has achieved.

This is further reinforced by things such as the "Dedication" talent description: "Gain +1 to a single characteristic.  This cannot bring a characteristic above 6."

Also, in the force power tree for Enhance, one of the control boxes says, "The user increases his Brawn characteristic by 1 (to a maximum of 6)."  In this case not even the force itself can raise your stat above the stated ceiling of 6.

Although I do not see an explicit max of skill level 5, that is certainly what is implied.  On F&D p112 it states: "Only a handful of individuals attain the fifth rank of a skill. Few can adequately appreciate the artistry of a master's craft, so those who attain this level must deliberately challenge themselves to perfect their expertise.  Characters with this degree of proficiency may have a reputation for their particular talents that extends far beyond their community."

Essentially, it is saying achieving a skill rank of 5 is being at the apex of that skill and there really is no more room to get better.  Its apparent from the description that if a character does have this level then achieving that should have probably been a major accomplishment at the conclusion of a campaign or something.  It should also take a very long time to achieve and the character would have performed this skill at a high level for so long that they have gained widespread notoriety for it.  Additionally, the book never even mentions a level higher than 5 and FFG's examples, such as Vader and Palpatine, don't even achieve anything higher than 5 ability and 5 skill level.

For those reasons, I conclude that the actual best a skill roll can get is 5 proficiency + 1 ability, and achieving that is absurdly unlikely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/9/2020 at 2:31 AM, Darth Magnus said:

I just came across this topic.  Not that you can't have any house rules that you want; but, the books are pretty clear that the maximum skill roll you can have would be 5 proficiency + 1 ability.  This would be derived from an ability of 6 and a skill level of 5.

Cybernetics don't have any "cannot bring above X" clause. I'd say that you can't get above 5 Proficiency+1 Ability naturally, and that's only for what I call your reliable dice pool (the dice pool before active talents, abilities, and circumstances). Cybernetics can push each one up an additional point (up to 7 in a Characteristic and 6 in a skill), and then talents or things that provide upgrades push it up farther.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/11/2020 at 12:33 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Cybernetics don't have any "cannot bring above X" clause. I'd say that you can't get above 5 Proficiency+1 Ability naturally, and that's only for what I call your reliable dice pool (the dice pool before active talents, abilities, and circumstances). Cybernetics can push each one up an additional point (up to 7 in a Characteristic and 6 in a skill), and then talents or things that provide upgrades push it up farther.

The OP does mention that with Aim they get to 8 Proficiency, I think True Aim can get you 1 upgrade/Rank if you Aim so that would do it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going back to the scenario the OP described: Getting enough Crits to kill a target on one turn and repeating it each turn.

The thing you have going for you from a GM encounter design perspective is that they are "only" taking out 1 opponent (Autofire is usually mentioned as the broken mechanic where a PC with big dice pools are killing everything on their action because Advantage is generating extra hits instead of +10 on a crit).  For this I'd say you can just add multiple threatening opponents, if they are only dropping 1/round that should be fairly manageable and still provide a challenging and interesting encounter.  Throw in an extra Nemesis.  Or a Nemesis with high Soak and Durable Talents (reduces Crit Injury results by 10/rank), get's an extra action at the bottom of the initiative, and has good inititative stats (so they will likely go first or second).  Throw in high ranks of Adversary (3-5) and you should see fewer Advantage generated making Crits less severe.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 3/11/2020 at 1:33 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Cybernetics don't have any "cannot bring above X" clause. I'd say that you can't get above 5 Proficiency+1 Ability naturally, and that's only for what I call your reliable dice pool (the dice pool before active talents, abilities, and circumstances). Cybernetics can push each one up an additional point (up to 7 in a Characteristic and 6 in a skill), and then talents or things that provide upgrades push it up farther.

Those notes of "cannot bring above..." are only reminders of "During the course of play, no characteristic can be increased above 6."   If that reminder is omitted, that does not mean that you are not breaking the balance of the game by continuing to heap on stats.

If you look at the stats for Vader, he does not have a single stat above five. (for that matter neither does any published NPC, even a Krayt Dragon does not exceed 5 brawn)  And Vader has 3 cybernetic limbs.  Vader is also very close to being the most powerful character in the galaxy; but your PC exceeds him significantly.  The rules allow for 6, but this demonstrates how exceedingly rare that would be.

You came here asking for how to deal with this, the answer is your PC is out of bounds, you should nerf him back inside the rules and that will help balance your game play. You are essentially trying to figure out how to flex the rules to deal with something that violates them.

That being said, its your game, you can house rule whatever you want; but you aren't going to be successful having superman in a group of non-super capable characters.  You need to bring your other characters up to superhero status so they can hang with what can challenge the uber PC; or, nerf this guy down. 

That's just my opinion.

 

 

Edited by Darth Magnus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Darth Magnus said:

If you look at the stats for Vader, he does not have a single stat above five. (for that matter neither does any published NPC, even a Krayt Dragon does not exceed 5 brawn)  And Vader has 3 cybernetic limbs.  Vader is also very close to being the most powerful character in the galaxy; but your PC exceeds him significantly.  The rules allow for 6, but this demonstrates how exceedingly rare that would be.

Actually, a Rancor has 6 Brawn and a Fambaa has 7. As for skills, the Hutt Crime Lord has a Resilience of 8 (unobtainable by a PC as per RAW).

37 minutes ago, Darth Magnus said:

Those notes of "cannot bring above..." are only reminders of "During the course of play, no characteristic can be increased above 6."   If that reminder is omitted, that does not mean that you are not breaking the balance of the game by continuing to heap on stats.

I'm sorry, but this is just incorrect. Look at a CRB under "Cybernetics" and this is what you'll find:

Quote

Cybernetic enhancements and replacements generally increase skills or characteristics, providing raw bonuses to characters' abilities. The combination of purchased increases and the increases provided by cybernetics can increase a character's skill or characteristic one step above the normal maximum (seven for characteristics, 6 for skills).

31 minutes ago, Darth Magnus said:

You came here asking for how to deal with this, the answer is your PC is out of bounds, you should nerf him back inside the rules and that will help balance your game play. You are essentially trying to figure out how to flex the rules to deal with something that violates them.

That being said, its your game, you can house rule whatever you want; but you aren't going to be successful having superman in a group of non-super capable characters.  You need to bring your other characters up to superhero status so they can hang with what can challenge the uber PC; or, nerf this guy down. 

That's just my opinion.

I am not a fan of bumping a characteristic over 5. I stated in my very first post in this thread my opinions on the matter. Plus, this wasn't my question or topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Darth Magnus said:

Those notes of "cannot bring above..." are only reminders of "During the course of play, no characteristic can be increased above 6."   If that reminder is omitted, that does not mean that you are not breaking the balance of the game by continuing to heap on stats.

Quote

Cybernetic enhancements and replacements generally increase skills or characteristics, providing raw bonuses to characters' abilities. The combination of purchased increases and the increases provided by cybernetics can increase a character's skill or characteristic one step above the normal maximum (seven for characteristics, 6 for skills).

As an addendum, the way to square this circle is actually quite simple. You can quite easily argue that cybernetics don't actually change your Characteristic, they simply provide a bonus to your Characteristic. Thus, a cybernetic doesn't technically bring your Characteristic above 6 as it doesn't permanently increase your Characteristic, the only thing that can permanently increase your characteristic is Dedication. If you look at the actual wording, it says "provides +1 X" whereas Dedication says "Permanently increases."

This could be considered a stretch, but I think it makes enough sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know, there's this talent in the Charmer tree called "Don't shoot"...

It makes it so you can't be targeted by combat checks unless you make one first.

You know what isn't a combat check?

Scathing tirade.

In Star Wars, you talk unbeatable combat monsters into submission.

:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, penpenpen said:

You know, there's this talent in the Charmer tree called "Don't shoot"...

It makes it so you can't be targeted by combat checks unless you make one first.

You know what isn't a combat check?

Scathing tirade.

In Star Wars, you talk unbeatable combat monsters into submission.

:D

Scathing Tirade is a conbat check. At least i would treat.it as one. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Scathing Tirade is a conbat check. At least i would treat.it as one. 

It very clearly isn't one, but you're free to house rule it any way you like. I find it a more elegant solution than throwing more firepower at the the problem or inflating skill levels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...