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Cgriffith

Losing interest: Hyperspace is stale, and I’m uninterested

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Might as well join in:

Hyperspace format events this year: System Open day 1; Coruscant Invitational; 1st season of Store Champs.

Extended format events: SO day 2; Primes, Grands, Continentals, Worlds.

Store's choice: 2nd season of Store Champs; seasonal kits.

This is fine and balanced. A key indicator next year will be which format Primes get. Meanwhile, there is no reason to believe either format will eclipse the other. The sky isn't falling.

Edited by Gilarius

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1 hour ago, Gilarius said:

Might as well join in:

Hyperspace format events this year: System Open day 1; Coruscant Invitational; 1st season of Store Champs.

Extended format events: SO day 2; Primes, Grands, Continentals, Worlds.

Store's choice: 2nd season of Store Champs; seasonal kits.

This is fine and balanced. A key indicator next year will be which format Primes get. Meanwhile, there is no reason to believe either format will eclipse the other. The sky isn't falling.

I agree, even though I do wish primes and system opens were swapped. 
 

as for the casual night discussion. At least in my league in MD we are all very flexible with what we play for our games and what we play against. While half are pretty competitive, the other half aren’t and we usually try and make the best arrangement we can. I have agreed to play against extended lists with my hyperspace list multiple times so that they get to fly what they want and I get to test my lists (and my own) flexibility/adaptability. Some people don’t want to do that, but I think just being upfront with people and saying “this is what I brought do you mind” will go a long way. 

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18 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

I 100% agree. Im already sore about 2.0s cash grab roll-out and would boycott future FFG products if(likely when) hyperspace goes on to be the "real" game. but FFG is a ruthless corporation.  as a traded cororate entity they are literally mandated by law to maximize their shareholders profits. they will rotate our collections out of playability to maximize sales unless the customer base firmly rejects that model.   I dont think they base all their consumer data on the boards here but they do seem to notice when a topic gets traction so its worth a small bit to state opposition.  over time it can be seen by someone in corporate and influence a choice

 

Do you know how to fact? 

FFG nor Asmodee are traded corporate entities. Asking you to spend $50 a quarter to sustain the game is not a being ruthless. Additionally, you are not required to be a lemming ... you do not have to fly the meta! 

I hope you not only boycott future FFG products, but also future FFG events so the community becomes that much less toxic. 

Edited by Knitcardigan

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15 hours ago, gadwag said:

How many new ships do you typically buy each wave?

that question has no relevance to the topic or my point, but I'll bite.

it depends: some waves Ive bought multiples of each ship in the wave for all factions, some i've bought nothing.

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3 minutes ago, Knitcardigan said:

 

Do you know how to fact? 

FFG nor Asmodee are trade corporate entities. Asking you to spend $50 a quarter to sustain the game is not a being ruthless. Additionally, you are not required to be a lemming ... you do not have to fly the meta! 

I hope you not only boycott future FFG products, but also future FFG events so the community becomes that much less toxic. 

yeah, they are. you can look companies and parent  companies up on the various stock exchanges. feel free.

Ad hominem attacks are not welcome here btw. try to "stay on target" and have fun

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I mean, this feels like a digression, but FWIW - FFG is not a publicly traded company, and was acquired/merged-with by Asmodee in 2014.

Asmodee is also not a publicly traded company, and was acquired by a french private equity firm in 2013.

 

General timeline on wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asmodee

 

Edit - I'm not sure why this matters - they're still a business with a profit motive (likely nearly all businesses). I'm not sure why their profit motive is inherently a reason to be mad, either.

Edited by Tlfj200

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12 minutes ago, miguelj said:

Do people really believe this?  If FFG's intention for 2.0 was a crash grab in rolling it out, it did a really poor job of maximizing revenue.

yes.  many thousands of people stopped playing and some games stores abandonded the product line.

i bought a full 40k army and multiple gw games systems for less than my 1.0 conversion for 2 factions of X-wing.

it varies by what you owned from 1.0, but for many players it was cheaper to start over with Republic or CIS than convert.

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4 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

yes.  many thousands of people stopped playing and some games stores abandonded the product line.

i bought a full 40k army and multiple gw games systems for less than my 1.0 conversion for 2 factions of X-wing.

it varies by what you owned from 1.0, but for many players it was cheaper to start over with Republic or CIS than convert.

Was it second hand or something? Just a codex for most factions will run you close to the price of a conversion kit. Back in 5e i made a spacewolf army that was 11 models (thanks logan grimnar!) and that still set me back close to $200 unpainted. Two squads of tactical marines will set you back $40 ea and most hq options look like they start at $25, thats the bare minimum to field a legal force, and nowhere near enough to field an actual army. (For those who have not played 40k, you're required to bring certain types of units, ususally two "troops" and an hq in your squad, you get to bring a significant chunk more in your army.)  Either you found the deal of the millenium, are a gw employee, or your numbers are off.

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16 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

yes.  many thousands of people stopped playing and some games stores abandonded the product line.

i bought a full 40k army and multiple gw games systems for less than my 1.0 conversion for 2 factions of X-wing.

it varies by what you owned from 1.0, but for many players it was cheaper to start over with Republic or CIS than convert.

Please advise of the >1 Games Workshop game systems that you purchased for <$70. 

 

These are not ad hominem rebuttals. You are more then entitled to promulgate fictitious opinion. What is offensive about your posts is your use of "little" or "insignificant" lies to make your fictitious opinion sound legitimate. Please stop normalizing this unfortunate but all too common tactic. 

 

Edited by Knitcardigan

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Yea I own the entire x wing line including epic ships. It has yet to eclipse my 4000 point dwarf army with paint and other supplies included. Let alone my salamanders, imperial guard, dark angels, vampire counts or any other full sized tournament army. I also worked for GW for 4 years so a lot of that was bought at a discount. 
 

One of each conversion kit was what $180? Let’s say you needed two of one so $220. For me to upgrade my IG to fifth edition I paid $100 for the super cool codex $50 for a manticore, 2 more chimeras at $70, and another two squads for melts guns so $40. Also, a knight titan at $55. That was to stay competitive, with ONE of my factions. Please do not ever try and make a favorable comparison to GW pricing vs FFG ever again. 

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33 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I mean, this feels like a digression, but FWIW - FFG is not a publicly traded company, and was acquired/merged-with by Asmodee in 2014.

Asmodee is also not a publicly traded company, and was acquired by a french private equity firm in 2013.

 

General timeline on wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asmodee

 

Edit - I'm not sure why this matters - they're still a business with a profit motive (likely nearly all businesses). I'm not sure why their profit motive is inherently a reason to be mad, either.

yeah, the equity firms parent is public.  Just go on wikipedia and keep clicking up the "purchased by...." links. but  I agree, their corporate status doesnt matter. 

the only reason I mentioned it is people seem to not understand how profit motive affects product, or for that matter how purchase incentives work. a little bit is healthy but as a consumer the best way you can advocate for yourself is to identify predatory sales techniques and avoid them. engineered obsolescense is one such technique and thats what companies like wizards of the coast use to push sales of MTG via rotating format. I personally avoid those techniques and wont support a game format based on them. Your phone getting its schedualed slowdowns to make you buy a new phone at regular intervals is because of profit motive. I dont need that in my mini games.

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9 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

They need ships to rotate in, ships that are sold in 2.0. And there is no chance that they will get enough in time.

Not exactly sure what you're saying here, but the VCX, Sheathipede, TIE Interceptor, Defender, and /v1, Torrents, Scum Falcon/Escape Craft, etc. all need to move 2.0 units just as much as the rest do. The point of Hyperspace is surely not predominantly to move new units or they wouldn't have cut these out.

9 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

And OP formats only affect... OP. No kitchen table cares about whether the worlds qualifier at SOS is extended or hyperspace. Why do I even jump in

This is the opposite of true in my experience. Maybe it's because Covenant is a very competitive store (though with a very chill/casual attitude) but pretty much no one wants to fly non-OP-legal squads. They pretty much might as well not exist. Epic hasn't had much of a showing at all, and lately not even Extended has been played. That might change here now that the FW SoS is over, but I'm not too sure.

Ultimately, the line is pretty blurred between what's "legal" and what's "competitively legal," even at kitchen table, which is about half of what I play. For example, in first edition, the policy for revealing a dial while stressed only applied to OP events, but of course we used it casually too because we needed a ruling. OP is the front-runner for the entire game state, and is why it's so important, not just for OP but for every kitchen table as well.

No, the sky is not falling. Extended is not going to die any time soon. If they did kill it, that would be like a mortal wound to their own game. It would be enormously stupid.

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16 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

No, the sky is not falling. Extended is not going to die any time soon. If they did kill it, that would be like a mortal wound to their own game. It would be enormously stupid.

This All Day. 

I'm still absolutely baffled at the people who refuse to play a Hyperspace legal squad vs someone playing an Extended legal squad. Unless the Extended player is super sweaty and playing strictly meta lists and soul crushing some janky Hyperspace test build on casual night it shouldn't matter.

Even if the Hyperspace player is "trying to get practice against Hyperspace lists" the opposing squad doesn't matter unless it's a meta list. Now you aren't just demanding your opponent play Hyperspace, you are demanding your opponent play a list from a tiny amount of lists. 

I feel like Mugatu here.

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1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

i bought a full 40k army and multiple gw games systems for less than my 1.0 conversion for 2 factions of X-wing.

please elaborate...

also, while PAI Partners is a fund company, they are not publicly traded either... It's another beast entirely.

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1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

yeah, the equity firms parent is public.  Just go on wikipedia and keep clicking up the "purchased by...." links. but  I agree, their corporate status doesnt matter. 

You are lying or simply refusing to research your own declarative statement. In either instance, you are knowingly not being honest. 

Why are you trying to die on this hill?

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11 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

that question has no relevance to the topic or my point, but I'll bite.

it depends: some waves Ive bought multiples of each ship in the wave for all factions, some i've bought nothing.

Cheers. I was asking because I wanted to understand where you're coming from in terms of not wanting to spend money to keep up with rotation. Personally, I tend to buy about 1-2 ships each wave in total. I'd be very surprised if the rate of rotation is great enough that you or I need to spend more money than we already are to keep up.

10 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

i bought a full 40k army and multiple gw games systems for less than my 1.0 conversion for 2 factions of X-wing.

You've made this claim before on multiple threads and you've never given any explanation or proof. It's grade A baloney.

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17 hours ago, Micanthropyre said:

I'm still absolutely baffled at the people who refuse to play a Hyperspace legal squad vs someone playing an Extended legal squad. Unless the Extended player is super sweaty and playing strictly meta lists and soul crushing some janky Hyperspace test build on casual night it shouldn't matter.

This is the reason I stopped playing in stores at all.  Everywhere I went people were only playing Hyperspace legal lists and when I rocked up (on casual nights, I don't play in any of the competitive stuff as I really hate the Hyperspace format) with my lists (all legal for Extended Play), no one wanted to play me because I wasn't fielding a Hyperspace list.

So I just stopped going.  Now I play with a couple of friends a few times a year and that is it. 

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On 2/11/2020 at 5:54 AM, Cgriffith said:

Every list until January always had Darth Vader or Anakin Skywalker (D7) in it or Rey. I also don’t like Reapers or Strikers. I am using N-1 Anakin currently but am not enjoying myself.

 

@reqent most of my local group are hyper competitive and travel; all they want to play is Hyperspace.

So this is all you flew...yet HS is stale....... 

I initially didn't like HS format, then I found I had to brain more to find lists that worked. I am now enjoying the challenge. I don't know why people put threads up like this, you're not enjoying it? Cool, but there are a lot of people who are. Stop playing for a bit, no one minds. It's a game, not life or death. I for one am glad that the same BS is not going to be spewed out over and over. 

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On 2/13/2020 at 3:55 PM, Vontoothskie said:

yes.  many thousands of people stopped playing and some games stores abandonded the product line.

i bought a full 40k army and multiple gw games systems for less than my 1.0 conversion for 2 factions of X-wing.

it varies by what you owned from 1.0, but for many players it was cheaper to start over with Republic or CIS than convert.

lHWRr5V.gif

On 2/13/2020 at 4:05 PM, catachanninja said:

Either you found the deal of the millenium, are a gw employee, or your numbers are off.

Toothy also believes the Raider and Gozanti were produced to 1/270 scale, but the C-ROC was not.

I suspect he is using the same mathematics/logic here.

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On 2/11/2020 at 11:58 PM, Darth Meanie said:

Nothing against @Sasajak and gang (because I see this a lot), showing up X-Wing night without a ship/list ready is kinda like showing up to a night of RPG and needing to roll up a character.

Eh, whenever I build a list at home and bring it to a game night, most of the time I just end up thinking "I don't feel like flying that...I feel like flying this ship." I am fickle when it comes to my mood and what I want to fly which is why I pick two factions, bring them and build on the night. I don't think it's as disruptive as people make it out to be.

On 2/10/2020 at 10:48 PM, Cgriffith said:

No it’s that my local area only plays Hyperspace right now, and unfortunately (as you mention my CLT lists) I feel don’t represent the play style I prefer and i don’t think anyone wouldn’t not play my extended lists except for the format everyone week after week continues to agree upon with no flexibility.

Heres a secret all my lists (Republic) are made with CLT Jedi I like having 3 green dice as the base; I’ve never played 7B.

I’m not willing to fly anything that doesn’t have Anakin, Darth Vader or Rey in the list. (Yes those pilots could also be a crew or gunner if applicable in some cases) Sorry, new favorites? Anakin Skywalker is my favorite character Rey is second I got into this game because I had the ability to fly those iconic (Darth Vader) in his x/1 not just because it’s Star Wars.

See answer above. I have no issues with CLT Jedi I do have an issue with the other tools being offered in Hyperspace to play with those CLT Jedi (specifically Anakin) immediately after Republic released I was a Palp Aces player with Republic obviously that list has disappeared. Someone earlier in the thread suggested Y-Wing Anakin everyone knows he just isn’t playable in any format. 

In regards to this when it was suggested I immediately tried to make a list I thought would be fun, and I can’t if I could I’d try it but putting 70-75 points into a Y-Wing is not smart list making nor an affective approach. It’d become target priority 

 I’m fully aware and have tried Kylo/Vonreg combos a few times (Kylo being the Skywalker in the list) as a Vader substitute. It’s alright it appears I need to walk away from the game, many here are dead set on just hyper competitive X-Wing.

I'm done commenting in this thread. I see this is just other posters attacking my personal opinion 

I'll deal with your last point first: If you are done commenting, then why make the thread in the first place? What were you looking to get from the thread? Advice? Arguments? You certainly got the latter!

On 2/12/2020 at 1:09 PM, Vontoothskie said:

so OP needs to change their reasons for enjoying the game (piloting their favorite characters) and/or buy new expansions to do so?  thats not as insightful as you want it to be.

Many of us enjoy a lot of pilots and playstyles and Hyperspace is still fairly limiting. I for example have 15 ships I like to fly, spread across 3 factions. Hyperspace currently allows 6 of them, 2 rebel, 2 imp, 2 scum. that sucks.  For people who are more focused in what they like its feast or famine, either your boys are legal or not. that can be a turnoff

This is a living game, and certainly some of my favourite ships are a victim of the hyperspace restriction. However, I for one welcome the change. I say this because there is someone at our local group who has played the same list (not joking) for 6 months and quite frankly I refuse to fly against him because I just feel 'eh...same old same old, nothing changes'. By hyperspace forcing him to change his squad entirely, it has lead to him discovering new ships he likes to play, and I will actually play a game with him because ****** it's something new to fly against.

I get it that it is not everyone's cup of tea and Cgriffith is clearly frustrated he can't fly his...incredibly limited...preference of ships. However, there is extended, if people at his group won't play extended, then that is the problem for that group. You can't force people to fly a format they don't want to fly in. If we open up Hyperspace then what is the point in having Hyperspace at all?

On 2/12/2020 at 2:30 PM, Okapi said:

Of course, if hyperspace were to replace extended, rather than supplementing it, I'd agree, that's not ideal, but I think I'd be able to adapt. I'd rather play one format exclusively for a little while rather than take a break or quit altogether, but that's just me. For now I'll pack lists for both formats and play whatever people feel like.

 

On 2/12/2020 at 5:36 PM, Vontoothskie said:

So first off, i appreciate your thought process there, but i disagree.  I think Hyperspace is gauranteed to replace extended as the tourney format. thats its purpose and why it exists.   FFG anticipated backlash so theyre phasing it in.  MTG did the same in the 90s.  because many players aspire to play tournaments they'll push their playgroups to play hyperspace for practice, thereby normalizing hyperspace as the standard format until extended becomes the "legacy" format.  that could be fine, but it has a lot of drawbacks.  its designed to encourage purchases as much as rotate the meta, and any veteran MTG player knows where that goes.  you should not have to be rich to play.

 

what makes way more sense to me is to ban specific upgrades and for a rotation of ships to be priced "badly" each cycle for extended. so for example if you Really Really need to fly Vader you can, but youre doing it at a disadvantage for 6 months.  more competive players will still buy the new hotness (and probably win), but the One ship folks can still use their chassis of choice.

 

 

 

With all respect, your goal for a competitive format is to price something up so much so that it isn't competitive so people can still fly that ship in a competitive environment but not be competitive? It sounds counter intuitive to me. Great accessibility, and I'd welcome it given I love TIE Phantoms...but it just seems ridiculous. Plus you're also treating pilots and upgrade cards differently when I am not sure one should be banned while another should merely have their cost increased. All your doing is causing issues for people who like certain upgrades.

I don't think Hyperspace will entirely replace Extended. I do think that Hyperspace will be pushed as the main competitive format, but I also think that Extended will still be offered as an option. To be world champion or even a regional champion I feel you have to show you can do it in both formats.

I also feel your analogy with MTG completely falls flat. I do agree that Hyperspace will be used to push sales, and I also think there's nothing wrong with that. The other option is introducing upgrades and ships that are so overpowered that it ends up chasing ships out of the meta completely anyway. Furthermore...its not like I buy an X-Wing expansion pack and have to hope that inside the box is a Fireball. You know what you are getting with every purchase and can make your purchases strategically. To do that in Magic is impossible unless you can some how know exactly what is in each booster pack.

On 2/12/2020 at 9:37 PM, Vontoothskie said:

I 100% agree. Im already sore about 2.0s cash grab roll-out and would boycott future FFG products if(likely when) hyperspace goes on to be the "real" game. but FFG is a ruthless corporation.  as a traded cororate entity they are literally mandated by law to maximize their shareholders profits. they will rotate our collections out of playability to maximize sales unless the customer base firmly rejects that model.   I dont think they base all their consumer data on the boards here but they do seem to notice when a topic gets traction so its worth a small bit to state opposition.  over time it can be seen by someone in corporate and influence a choice

Yeah...real cash grab. I for one am glad I didn't have to rebuy all the Rebel, Imperial, and Scum ships that I already have. I do not see this as shady business practices.

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11 hours ago, Ebak said:

With all respect, your goal for a competitive format is to price something up so much so that it isn't competitive so people can still fly that ship in a competitive environment but not be competitive? It sounds counter intuitive to me. Great accessibility, and I'd welcome it given I love TIE Phantoms...but it just seems ridiculous. Plus you're also treating pilots and upgrade cards differently when I am not sure one should be banned while another should merely have their cost increased. All your doing is causing issues for people who like certain upgrades.

We had this in 1.0, it was called "power creep" and it was universally hated

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