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Lok Durd Rules Question

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GW rules are trash. They constantly conflict with each other from book to book and the RAW vs RAI happens at every turn. Unlike FFG, they do not have developers who answer intent questions outside of the random FAQ that happens every full moon on a friday the 13th. Arguing that GW rules are better/easier/etc is just not realistic.

 

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22 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

How did you memorize them, by looking them up repeatedly until you learned them? There is still a chart that has to be referenced to learn those rules in the first place. 
Depending on what you mean by "Oldhammer" (I've seen it used to mean any previous version of either 40k or Warhammer Fantasy):
Oldhammer 40k: What about if the weapon has Rapid Fire, Assault, Heavy, or the Pistol keywords? What about if the unit has a special rule like Relentless or (whatever the keyword is to ignore cover)?
Oldhammer Fantasy: Different ranged weapons have different rules, so one has to look up the weapon (until they memorize it) to see what special rules apply to that unit's ranged attacks, in addition to checking the unit special rules. 

No, they're so intuitive I remember them since the first time I read them. Crossbow is move or fire. Gottit. Handgonnes are shoot every 2 turns, and they get an extra -1 to armor saves. Both of these are range 24" as are bows but longbows are range 30" and shortbows are range 16" and crossbows and handgonnes are Strength 4 but bows/crossbows/longbows are Strength 3. I don't need to read those rules more than once because it all acts like I'd expect it to.

I don't much care for 3rd (or later) editions of 40k precisely because of the keywords. Which Legion also uses a lot of.

I do get stuck playing the current edition of 40k (whatever that may be) sometimes but that's a whole other headache. I refuse to keep up on anything other than the core rulebook and ONE codex per edition nowadays. Just so I can get along with the crowd when 40k is the thing to do.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

No, they're so intuitive I remember them since the first time I read them. Crossbow is move or fire. Gottit. Handgonnes are shoot every 2 turns, and they get an extra -1 to armor saves. Both of these are range 24" as are bows but longbows are range 30" and shortbows are range 16" and crossbows and handgonnes are Strength 4 but bows/crossbows/longbows are Strength 3. I don't need to read those rules more than once because it all acts like I'd expect it to.

I don't much care for 3rd (or later) editions of 40k precisely because of the keywords. Which Legion also uses a lot of.

I do get stuck playing the current edition of 40k (whatever that may be) sometimes but that's a whole other headache. I refuse to keep up on anything other than the core rulebook and ONE codex per edition nowadays. Just so I can get along with the crowd when 40k is the thing to do.

 

 

And many of the more common Legion Keywords  I've similarly memorized because the names are "intuitive" to me: Pierce means the attack "pierce" through the defence, Nimble means able to Dodge multiple times, Sharpshooter reduces cover, Armor means hits that aren't crits get blocked, Impact helps get through Armour, Spotter the unit can help a unit "Aim", etc. The ranges I mentally translate into inches, since each range band is exactly six inches, and since "how good" a unit is a shooting is based on color of die it's as simple as white < black  < red (or 7+ <  5+ <  3+). Just like you don't have to reference the weapons stats for Oldhammer because you used them some much you now remember them with no issues, that's the same for my playgroup.
Additionally, those rules aren't as "intuitive" to me as I play many different historical and fantasy wargames, each with subtle differences in how those various weapons work. 

Oldhammer has quite a few keywords, they are just called "magic items."

Edited by Caimheul1313

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1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

If you move it's minus 1 to the dice rolls. Soft cover is minus 1, hard cover is minus 2. I memorized all those rules, no need to look them up.

 

37 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

No, they're so intuitive I remember them since the first time I read them. Crossbow is move or fire. Gottit. Handgonnes are shoot every 2 turns, and they get an extra -1 to armor saves. Both of these are range 24" as are bows but longbows are range 30" and shortbows are range 16" and crossbows and handgonnes are Strength 4 but bows/crossbows/longbows are Strength 3. I don't need to read those rules more than once because it all acts like I'd expect it to.

I don't much care for 3rd (or later) editions of 40k precisely because of the keywords. Which Legion also uses a lot of.

I do get stuck playing the current edition of 40k (whatever that may be) sometimes but that's a whole other headache. I refuse to keep up on anything other than the core rulebook and ONE codex per edition nowadays. Just so I can get along with the crowd when 40k is the thing to do.

 

 

These rules are only intuitive to you because you've already memorized them.  "Oldhammer" effectively had keywords; they were baked into the names of the weapons instead of listed separately.

Granted, I probably have a similar bias towards Legion, both because I already know those rules and because the fact that I'm more invested in Star Wars characters than whatever GW produces makes it easier for me to associate various models with various rules.

Still, I appreciate the fact that Legion uses symbols instead of numbers (especially in cases where Warhammer refers to a chart instead of actual math), and the fact that Legion doesn't have the extra "I hit the target but did I wound it" step.  For me, even basic attacks in Warhammer boil down to me rolling a bunch of dice and asking my (admittedly more experienced) opponent which ones are successes, which ones are failures and how many times I need to keep rolling.

 

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

And many of the more common Legion Keywords  I've similarly memorized because the names are "intuitive" to me: Pierce means the attack "pierce" through the defence, Nimble means able to Dodge multiple times, Sharpshooter reduces cover, Armor means hits that aren't crits get blocked, Impact helps get through Armour, Spotter the unit can help a unit "Aim", etc. The ranges I mentally translate into inches, since each range band is exactly six inches, and since "how good" a unit is a shooting is based on color of die it's as simple as white < black  < red (or 7+ <  5+ <  3+). Just like you don't have to reference the weapons stats for Oldhammer because you used them some much you now remember then with no issues,

Once. I needed to read them ONCE. I still can't remember what's going on in Legion. It's a labyrinth.

Course I was a teenager when I read them, my brain was more elastic.

There's also ways of formatting the same information that are easier and harder for different people. In fencing, and 19th century sword drill, I could never remember the numbered body positions. When I started doing 13th and 15th century swordplay where the body positions have NAMES, I immediately got it.

The thing about old Warhammer was, if you thought the complicated rules were too complicated, you didn't use them. Psykers/Magic, wargear/Magic Items, Special Characters, that was all optional. Whereas there's no avoiding it in Legion and IA. When we teens we often banned psychics and stuff because we didn't want to muddy up the game.

Edited by TauntaunScout

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16 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Once. I needed to read them ONCE. I still can't remember what's going on in Legion. It's a labyrinth.

Course I was a teenager when I read them, my brain was more elastic.

There's also ways of formatting the same information that are easier and harder for different people. In fencing, and 19th century sword drill, I could never remember the numbered body positions. When I started doing 13th and 15th century swordplay where the body positions have NAMES, I immediately got it.

The thing about old Warhammer was, if you thought the complicated rules were too complicated, you didn't use them. Psykers/Magic, wargear/Magic Items, Special Characters, that was all optional. Whereas there's no avoiding it in Legion and IA. When we teens we often banned psychics and stuff because we didn't want to muddy up the game.

Maybe Legion isn't for you then, if you have problems like this with it. As for me, this is by far the best game system I have ever played.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Once. I needed to read them ONCE. I still can't remember what's going on in Legion. It's a labyrinth.

Course I was a teenager when I read them, my brain was more elastic.

There's also ways of formatting the same information that are easier and harder for different people. In fencing, and 19th century sword drill, I could never remember the numbered body positions. When I started doing 13th and 15th century swordplay where the body positions have NAMES, I immediately got it.

The thing about old Warhammer was, if you thought the complicated rules were too complicated, you didn't use them. Psykers/Magic, wargear/Magic Items, Special Characters, that was all optional. Whereas there's no avoiding it in Legion and IA. When we teens we often banned psychics and stuff because we didn't want to muddy up the game.

Yes, I only read the rules for all of those keywords ONCE, and much like the rules for the ranged weapons made sense to you, the keywords I listed all made sense to me. It's only the more complicated rules like Counterpart I tend to have to read multiple times. Or I have to check the rules for a specific interaction especially with some of the newer keywords. The keyword is a NAME for a specific game effect, and luckily for me at least the names match roughly up to the effect, as opposed to having to remember what "Duelist Blades" mean. 


So your response to "Oldhammer was at least as complicated as Legion" is "not if you cut out the complicated parts?" I hope you can see how that answer isn't really a fair comparison of the two games. One can easily cut out whole units from Legion to simplify the game in a similar way, or otherwise apply house rules. Heck, you can just use the models in a different rules system entirely. All the stuff you list as "optional" in Oldhammer is only "optional" in the sense that you didn't have to include it in your army. Similarly, the vast majority of the keywords in Legion are equally as "optional." 

Edited by Caimheul1313

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2 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

 

That's been my point, yeah.

You've made that clear, so why are you constantly posting about the game? Why be on a Legion forum at all? I get you like star wars, but there are plenty of places to talk about that subject outside of Legion.

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21 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

You've made that clear, so why are you constantly posting about the game? Why be on a Legion forum at all? I get you like star wars, but there are plenty of places to talk about that subject outside of Legion.

Boo, @TauntaunScout is generally actually a pretty reasonable and positive prescence on the forum. He has his opinions, we have ours. He has a very specific love of Star Wars (from a certain time period and only certain games) but dont we all?

He's on here because he loves Star Wars plastic armies. 

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19 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Boo, @TauntaunScout is generally actually a pretty reasonable and positive prescence on the forum. He has his opinions, we have ours. He has a very specific love of Star Wars (from a certain time period and only certain games) but dont we all?

He's on here because he loves Star Wars plastic armies. 

Fair enough, as everyone is entitled to their opinions of course. However, he has made it clear on numerous occasions that he doesn't like legion. That being said, if he doesn't enjoy the game itself, then he probably shouldn't take part in discussions about the game if he is only going to talk negatively about the game. There are plenty of off topic threads for general star wars discussions and he can make all the threads he wants regarding models/toys/etc.

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1 hour ago, Mokoshkana said:

Fair enough, as everyone is entitled to their opinions of course. However, he has made it clear on numerous occasions that he doesn't like legion. That being said, if he doesn't enjoy the game itself, then he probably shouldn't take part in discussions about the game if he is only going to talk negatively about the game. There are plenty of off topic threads for general star wars discussions and he can make all the threads he wants regarding models/toys/etc.

Generally Ive seen him state his opinion, acknowledge that Legion isnt his cup of tea as far as rule sets go, and leave it at that. It only escalates when people start trying to argue with him. Liking or not liking a rule set is a fundamentally subjective artistic appraisal (considering board games as a form of art) so its not something that can really be argued. People dont always like things for rational reasons.

I personally dont mind people of many different opinions about the game on the forum as long as they are not abusive or toxic, and as long as there is a critical mass of people that like the game to encorage new players (which there are atm).

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23 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Once. I needed to read them ONCE. I still can't remember what's going on in Legion. It's a labyrinth.

Course I was a teenager when I read them, my brain was more elastic.

There's also ways of formatting the same information that are easier and harder for different people. In fencing, and 19th century sword drill, I could never remember the numbered body positions. When I started doing 13th and 15th century swordplay where the body positions have NAMES, I immediately got it.

The thing about old Warhammer was, if you thought the complicated rules were too complicated, you didn't use them. Psykers/Magic, wargear/Magic Items, Special Characters, that was all optional. Whereas there's no avoiding it in Legion and IA. When we teens we often banned psychics and stuff because we didn't want to muddy up the game.

So you only needed to read then once, while legion rules are complicated. However you said that if the rules were complicated you ignored them like psykers/magic items and stuff, this of course makes it easier. Why not do the same with legion?

You can use just the core box and ignore all the expansions. 

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3 hours ago, jocke01 said:

So you only needed to read then once, while legion rules are complicated. However you said that if the rules were complicated you ignored them like psykers/magic items and stuff, this of course makes it easier. Why not do the same with legion?

Because it's ingrained throughout the basic rules. If I thought Darth Vader was complicated I wouldn't use him. I think the basic game engine is too much like a Eurogame.

3 hours ago, jocke01 said:



You can use just the core box and ignore all the expansions. 

The expansions are the only reason I played, the core set was a big "pass" in and of itself.

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3 hours ago, jocke01 said:
On 6/19/2020 at 12:10 PM, TauntaunScout said:

Once. I needed to read them ONCE. I still can't remember what's going on in Legion. It's a labyrinth.

Course I was a teenager when I read them, my brain was more elastic.

There's also ways of formatting the same information that are easier and harder for different people. In fencing, and 19th century sword drill, I could never remember the numbered body positions. When I started doing 13th and 15th century swordplay where the body positions have NAMES, I immediately got it.

The thing about old Warhammer was, if you thought the complicated rules were too complicated, you didn't use them. Psykers/Magic, wargear/Magic Items, Special Characters, that was all optional. Whereas there's no avoiding it in Legion and IA. When we teens we often banned psychics and stuff because we didn't want to muddy up the game.

So you only needed to read then once, while legion rules are complicated. However you said that if the rules were complicated you ignored them like psykers/magic items and stuff, this of course makes it easier. Why not do the same with legion?

You can use just the core box and ignore all the expansions. 

Can't really compare the game to Warhammer, but I come from a Warmachine background so the rules of Legion felt a breath of fresh air in how much simpler everything was...................... of course looking back Warmachine may not have been the best of games lol.

I wish I could read rules just once for any game I ever played. Pretty much any board game I was forced to read the rules several times since none of my friends could bother with them (worse part was that it was their own games!). On a difficultly scale Legion is pretty tame in comparison to most board games I can think of. Definitely easier then Armada, but X-wing...............I would have to think about that one.

And there are a lot of rules you can just ignore in Legion to play the game just fine. The 500 point mode also feels really good as a way to understand the basics of the game.

23 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Generally Ive seen him state his opinion, acknowledge that Legion isnt his cup of tea as far as rule sets go, and leave it at that. It only escalates when people start trying to argue with him. Liking or not liking a rule set is a fundamentally subjective artistic appraisal (considering board games as a form of art) so its not something that can really be argued. People dont always like things for rational reasons.

I personally dont mind people of many different opinions about the game on the forum as long as they are not abusive or toxic, and as long as there is a critical mass of people that like the game to encorage new players (which there are atm).

It is pretty interesting the different people you meet in the forums. I am a hardcore Star Wars fan that has done the TV shows, book, video games, and comics, but others in here have only seen some of the movies! Crazy stuff, especially since I think the movies may be the weakest part of the Star Wars franchise.

If anything I find Legion's rules to be one of its strongest features. The models have improved greatly, but it feels that FFG has dropped the ball in several other areas to support this game with no app/online and major release issues being problems since the start.

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Posted (edited)

I view this as more of a 3D roleplaying game, and also a (lite) simulation. If I wanted to match wits, I'd play Pente or chess.

In boardgames and wargames, I've come to be immediately suspicious of anything new which is touted as having good rules. Because nowadays "good rules" seems to be a codeword for "these rules were made for and by visual learners".

 

 

Edited by TauntaunScout

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

I view this as more of a 3D roleplaying game, and also a (lite) simulation. If I wanted to match wits, I'd play Pente or chess.

In boardgames and wargames, I've come to be immediately suspicious of anything new which is touted as having good rules. Because nowadays "good rules" seems to be a codeword for "these rules were made for and by visual learners".

Your description (RPG/light simulation) to me matches every miniature wargames that involves dice. Which I agree, those are definitely elements, there is also a component of strategy in my opinion, mitigating randomness, or in list construction.

How exactly do you propose a company produce rules specifically for kinesthetic or auditory learners? The visual and read/write learners are handled by the rulebook, and arguably the "learn to play" initial game is supposed to help the kinematic learners (but their best resource is probably a visual learner walking them through a game or two). Learn to play videos on YouTube are often handled by third parties, but should assist auditory learners. So, what exactly extra should be in the box to help non-visual learners?

And when exactly were rules NOT made for visual and/or read/write learners? Isn't that kind what a rule book IS?

Edited by Caimheul1313

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Because it's ingrained throughout the basic rules. If I thought Darth Vader was complicated I wouldn't use him. I think the basic game engine is too much like a Eurogame.

The expansions are the only reason I played, the core set was a big "pass" in and of itself.

So you have a big problem with the core game itself. I suggest you look for another game 😅

Edited by jocke01

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, jocke01 said:

So you have a big problem with the core game itself. I suggest you look for another game 😅

It's more like I have no use for the figures in the core game. If anything I'm liable to sell off my core set units and keep the Hoth ones!

And it's not like we're looking for ANY games right now :( And thus the problem I'm finding with Legion. To me it was neat to have a SW game I could wander into a store and play. Availability of other kids aged 9 to 99 to play with, outweighed my disliking the rules engine. Now that I'm in the pandemic mode I find Legion's big draw sorely lacking. Maybe I'll sell any models that are as well or better represented in other games, or sell everything but exactly 1600 points of Hoth stuff for each faction. Dunno.

 

48 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

And when exactly were rules NOT made for visual and/or read/write learners?

When they didn't use lots of proprietary symbols instead of words and numbers I already knew, and didn't have tons of visual clutter on the stat sheets. When I didn't feel like I had to visualize a big map of a clockwork machine in your mind to figure out who was winning, and what you should do next. So for example in old games I used to cutoff an enemy unit's avenue of retreat, and that meant something. In Legion (and most other current games) stuff like that doesn't seem to matter much.

Edited by TauntaunScout

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

 

When they didn't use lots of proprietary symbols instead of words and numbers I already knew, and didn't have tons of visual clutter on the stat sheets. When I didn't feel like I had to visualize a big map of a clockwork machine in your mind to figure out who was winning, and what you should do next. So for example in old games I used to cutoff an enemy unit's avenue of retreat, and that meant something. In Legion (and most other current games) stuff like that doesn't seem to matter much.

Haha... what? 

Clockwork machine? It's more like who has more victory tokens. 

I honestly lost track of what you even are talking about. 

Best of luck with you new rpg light clockwork oldhammer game!

Edited by jocke01

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, jocke01 said:

Haha... what? 

Clockwork machine?

 

Yup. You want your commander to be in range 3 of that guy but not worry about that other one, whilst the other character should stay within range 2 of that vehicle, and you need your squad to dodge THEN attack and NOT the other way around cause if not you won't get the 3 free aims from that thing over there... That's what Legion is like.

A strong push to your left (in Legion) doesn't really mean putting lots of troops on the left. It means arcane math that mostly affects the left. I want actual models to be the indicators of what's happening, not math I have to visualize in my head. Hence, my choice of models-based gaming.

Edited by TauntaunScout

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

When they didn't use lots of proprietary symbols instead of words and numbers I already knew, and didn't have tons of visual clutter on the stat sheets. When I didn't feel like I had to visualize a big map of a clockwork machine in your mind to figure out who was winning, and what you should do next. So for example in old games I used to cutoff an enemy unit's avenue of retreat, and that meant something. In Legion (and most other current games) stuff like that doesn't seem to matter much.

That's not really what that means as far as I know, but I think I understand what you are saying. I'm translating "visual learner" through what that means from an education standpoint, which is someone who "learns by looking at pictures and graphs." A Song of Ice and Fire still plays in a similar fashion to what you describe, but probably has more "keywords" than you would like.

 

1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

Yup. You want your commander to be in range 3 of that guy but not worry about that other one, whilst the other character should stay within range 2 of that vehicle, and you need your squad to dodge THEN attack and NOT the other way around cause if not you won't get the 3 free aims from that thing over there... That's what Legion is like.

A strong push to your left (in Legion) doesn't really mean putting lots of troops on the left. It means arcane math that mostly affects the left. I want actual models to be the indicators of what's happening, not math I have to visualize in my head. Hence, my choice of models-based gaming.

You have again described every wargame I have ever played. Oldhammer has some of those elements too: "I want my archers to be in range of that unit, but make sure I keep them out of the charge range of THAT unit, and I need to move this unit here to block the charges, but if I get X spell off, then I'm going to do Y instead."
 

In any model-based gaming where every model isn't exactly the same, a strong push doesn't necessarily mean putting a lot of bodies on that side. It could mean putting more elite units that direction, or more characters. I've played historical miniature games where a strong push could be a single unit that is tailored for close quarters combat, which is basically math that has to be visualized. With some wargames (especially historicals) the models look almost exactly the same since they are all just people. At least here, the models look different.

Edited by Caimheul1313

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1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I'm translating "visual learner" through what that means from an education standpoint, which is someone who "learns by looking at pictures and graphs."

And is capable of visualizing, among other things, the order of operations that Legion outcomes hinge on. And visualizing the higher number of overlapping bubbles of influence than the old charts & tables wargames, or, in meeplish boardgames, the numerous interlocking scoring mechanisms. Yeah all games have SOME of that but FFG games, they collapse under the weight of tons of it. Course so do things like Lords of the Waterdeep. So does Joan of Arc: Time of Legends but I put up with it.

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

 

Oldhammer has some of those elements too:

These things can be expressed in different ways. Legion's ways of expressing them are confusing to the extreme to me.

Current 40k and Warmachine is also pretty bad that way. Back in the day it was annoying if we had to look up hatred or fear. But keywords were virtually 100% the domain of psychological effects which didn't even come up every game. Now you can't get through a round of combat without having to look up a combat related keyword. And of course, they sell you PDF's of new formations, which cost them nothing, so that your guys can win more. I have no idea why people buy into that.

Now Muskets & Tomahawks. There's a good recent game.   

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