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Star Wars 40K. Now you must be joking.  My army goes, your army goes...No thanks.  You obviously haven't played a lot.  The tactical aspect of the current game blows 40K apart.  There have been so many games where if I or the opposing player had made a different choice in movement or attack the outcome would have been different.  That to me says balance.

The only downside to this game is length of time it takes to play an 800 point game.  That said there are ways to speed things up by having terrain ready and cards in quick sleeves.  IMO the game is one of the better miniature war games out there.

Also FFG hasn't nerfed armies or come out with armies that because they are new are so much better than previous armies.  Something GW is very well known for. 

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46 minutes ago, Tubb said:

I am sorry but as I have not liked the way they have managed the suposed Star wars WARgame, I would feel happy if these news were true. I don't want lots of people to be unhappy, but I simply don't like the way the game has been designed... still waiting for ANY troop choice that don't rely on different weathers and STILL having heroes and heroes and more heroes. So yes, I wanted an Star Wars Bolt Action or Star Wars 40k and it ended up being a Star Wars heroclix with cards... so much cards..  and card combos. No Big rulebook, no realism, just combos with abstract cards given to a hero. So yes, I'd like the license given to another company that finally makes a WARgame for Star Wars... and hoping it is not Wotc. 

It's sad to hear that you hate the game so much that you would prefer it to be discontinued instead on continuing for everybody else that do love it. You can't please everyone I guess.

For my part, since I've been playing X-Wing, Armada, Imperial Assault, Edge of the Empire, Rebellion, Outer Rim, Destiny and Legion, I think FFG has been doing a wonderful job with the Star Wars liscense and would be very sadden if it would be given to another company because I am still currently playing X-Wing, Armada and Legion.

18 hours ago, lologrelol said:

Who here wishes FFG would fold every other arm of their company, just so they can focus on their star wars minis games?

Not me, Arkham Horror the Card Game is one of my all-time favorite game, I'm having a blast playing Journey of Middle Earth with other friends and can't wait for the next expension, and soon we'll start playing Mansion of Madness 2nd edition (I know, I'm late to the party).

Great times for tabletop gaming! :P

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1 hour ago, Tubb said:

I am sorry but as I have not liked the way they have managed the suposed Star wars WARgame, I would feel happy if these news were true. I don't want lots of people to be unhappy, but I simply don't like the way the game has been designed... still waiting for ANY troop choice that don't rely on different weathers and STILL having heroes and heroes and more heroes. So yes, I wanted an Star Wars Bolt Action or Star Wars 40k and it ended up being a Star Wars heroclix with cards... so much cards..  and card combos. No Big rulebook, no realism, just combos with abstract cards given to a hero. So yes, I'd like the license given to another company that finally makes a WARgame for Star Wars... and hoping it is not Wotc. 

It does have a rulebook, it's over 80 pages...

And if you want your stats in a book, put the cards in a binder. ;)

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1 hour ago, Tubb said:

I am sorry but as I have not liked the way they have managed the suposed Star wars WARgame, I would feel happy if these news were true. I don't want lots of people to be unhappy, but I simply don't like the way the game has been designed... still waiting for ANY troop choice that don't rely on different weathers and STILL having heroes and heroes and more heroes. So yes, I wanted an Star Wars Bolt Action or Star Wars 40k and it ended up being a Star Wars heroclix with cards... so much cards..  and card combos. No Big rulebook, no realism, just combos with abstract cards given to a hero. So yes, I'd like the license given to another company that finally makes a WARgame for Star Wars... and hoping it is not Wotc. 

What? Your post is all over the place, and to what does "weathers" refer?

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1 hour ago, Tri3 said:

The tactical aspect of the current game blows 40K apart. 

Bonus combos (or choosing the right pip command cards) aren't tactics. Tactics don't seem to matter in Legion as much as Order of Operations. Legion is very much a computer programmer's, not military historian's, game. But the mainstream wargames all seem to be going the way of compsci puzzles, to sell to programmers with lots of disposable income.

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There have been so many games where if I or the opposing player had made a different choice in movement or attack the outcome would have been different.  That to me says balance.

The history of snipers, snowspeeders, et al says imbalance. I've had games of 40k where I won on objectives with my background-driven list despite being destroyed by a minmaxed list, which to me also says balance. Course other developments within 40k (ie, selling PDF formations) are destroying any sort of balance. But 40k, like all wargames, has never worked well when we cede the social contract to rules publishers. This genre of rules work best when played in the spirit of DnD, or the spirit of a joint research experiment, not the spirit of chess. But the spirit of chess generates more sales because it makes us all feel like Serious Gamers. I feel very thankful that halfway through college I outgrew the desire to feel like a Serious Gamer.

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Also FFG hasn't nerfed armies or come out with armies that because they are new are so much better than previous armies.  Something GW is very well known for. 

No but they come out with units that do. Give it time. Fortunately, due to licensing, it's unlikely they can flat out kill off armies like GW does. But people seem to forget how much FFG has partnered up with GW in the recent past when they compare the two.

Personally I think Legion's core rules are convoluted and non-immersive. I'd still rather play Legion than any boardgame or cardgame, or probably current 40k unless I really saw eye to eye with my 40k opponent about the spirit of the game. But I'd rather play almost any other minis game I own, than Legion. Now that I've painted a couple big armies for it, it's hard to stay excited about Legion.

 

Edited by TauntaunScout

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1 hour ago, Red Castle said:

It's sad to hear that you hate the game so much that you would prefer it to be discontinued instead on continuing for everybody else that do love it. You can't please everyone I guess.

For my part, since I've been playing X-Wing, Armada, Imperial Assault, Edge of the Empire, Rebellion, Outer Rim, Destiny and Legion, I think FFG has been doing a wonderful job with the Star Wars liscense and would be very sadden if it would be given to another company because I am still currently playing X-Wing, Armada and Legion.

Not me, Arkham Horror the Card Game is one of my all-time favorite game, I'm having a blast playing Journey of Middle Earth with other friends and can't wait for the next expension, and soon we'll start playing Mansion of Madness 2nd edition (I know, I'm late to the party).

Great times for tabletop gaming! :P

Yeah you keep your stinking paws off our Arkham Horror LCG! :D

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46 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Bonus combos (or choosing the right pip command cards) aren't tactics. Tactics don't seem to matter in Legion as much as Order of Operations. Legion is very much a computer programmer's, not military historian's, game. But the mainstream wargames all seem to be going the way of compsci puzzles, to sell to programmers with lots of disposable income.

Soooo much This. Sadly GW, who used to be the king of "sci-fantasy wargames for history nerds" have gone the same way with their core games these days, since they're all about deck/listbuilding and auras and keyword synergy now. If it wasn't for the Specialist Games team they'd be a lost cause.

As to the topic, it's probably BS, and I very much hope it is. Not because I particularly care for Legion as a system, but because they've not put out nearly enough cool models yet.

Once FFG give us comprehensive model ranges for Rebels, Empire, Republic, Seppies, Scum(inc at least Mandos, Hutts, Black Sun, and Crimson Dawn), then they will have my permission to die.

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3 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Bonus combos (or choosing the right pip command cards) aren't tactics. Tactics don't seem to matter in Legion as much as Order of Operations. Legion is very much a computer programmer's, not military historian's, game. But the mainstream wargames all seem to be going the way of compsci puzzles, to sell to programmers with lots of disposable income.

 

Hmm... Could you elaborate on this, a bit? I'm struggling to see what makes Legion different from other wargames in that regard. Most things can be broken down into a compsci puzzle- That's the core of game theory, after all. Now, 40k and AoS do have issues where list-building has become so centralized around force multipliers, but I haven't seen that in Legion, at least nowhere near to the same scale.

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The history of snipers, snowspeeders, et al says imbalance. I've had games of 40k where I won on objectives with my background-driven list despite being destroyed by a minmaxed list, which to me also says balance. Course other developments within 40k (ie, selling PDF formations) are destroying any sort of balance. But 40k, like all wargames, has never worked well when we cede the social contract to rules publishers. This genre of rules work best when played in the spirit of DnD, or the spirit of a joint research experiment, not the spirit of chess. But the spirit of chess generates more sales because it makes us all feel like Serious Gamers. I feel very thankful that halfway through college I outgrew the desire to feel like a Serious Gamer.

... You really, really shouldn't look at what 8th edition has done with ITC or the most recent incarnation of Maelstrom (Pick only 18 cards. Goodbye, hold Objective X cards!).

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No but they come out with units that do. Give it time. Fortunately, due to licensing, it's unlikely they can flat out kill off armies like GW does. But people seem to forget how much FFG has partnered up with GW in the recent past when they compare the two.

I'm not saying it's never deliberate, but a lot of FFG's balance screw ups seem more down to mistakes than malice. It doesn't make sense to deliberately release the number of flops Legion has, which means a lot of the screw-ups on the other end of the balance spectrum are probably just that. As for the partner-ups... FFG mostly does licensed games. I don't think it makes sense to read into their relationship with GW, at least not anymore than their relationship with another partner apart from Disney (due to the sheer amount of power, Disney has, I do think the mouse has a bit more clout than FFG's previous partners).

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Personally I think Legion's core rules are convoluted and non-immersive. I'd still rather play Legion than any boardgame or cardgame, or probably current 40k unless I really saw eye to eye with my 40k opponent about the spirit of the game. But I'd rather play almost any other minis game I own, than Legion. Now that I've painted a couple big armies for it, it's hard to stay excited about Legion.

Legion is interesting to me, because it feels like there's so many places FFG tried to streamline, and it's kind of backfired. I'm not sure if it's due to lack of foresight, or not maintaining a good design document.

Edited by Squark

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Well Netrunner was given a rebirth with core 2.0 and seemlying new expansions coming out up until the point a check for the new license had to be written. I would hope with all the layoffs and maybe a loan or something if a check is due, Asmodee could write it. The holding company wants to unload all of this and the FFG part wouldn't be worth spit without the SW license, so unless that check is worth more than what they could get for FFG or if they simply can't barrow enough, that check gets written. So yes, it is possible that check doesn't get written but this rumor comes out every so often. With a check that size, there is always a discussion and there just being a discussion is enough to cause a rumor or people are just making stuff up again.

Best not to take anything for granted though.

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I really like that you guys enjoy the game, but I don't, and I can asure you that I have tried hard, simply because I am a Star Wars fanboy since I was a kid (actually I am 47 y. o.) and also I am a Wargaming fan since Space Marine boxed set showed me how it was to command an army of plastic 6mm space marines. Since then, I have been dreaming of a game that add these two concepts toghether... and still waiting. It is a pity because when I first heard about Ffg doing a wargame based in Star Wars I was really excited, and years have pased, money has been sunk, and still the armies I see when people play in stores don't feel like an army, still seems a hodgepodge of units disposed abstractly surrounding some card objectives that don't mean anything, a terrain that uses to have no purpose and few tactics other than "staying two turns here with that hero and so my unit C will use that abstract bonus that, added to the effect of THAT card will make me win..." sorry, I simply don't get the point of games that have a GREAT IP and don't try to be thematic or even expand on ideas from the IP. You guys seem to talk so much about combos and rules stretching that I feel you could play Legion with card tokens and some cards and still enjoy it... as I see it you had the possibility to make a wonderful wargame (bolt action, lotr, etc style) and you have done Magic TG with minis. Well, it is not FFG fault, they only did the only thing they know about making games: transfrom everyhting in a card game so they don't need to change anything to adapt to a new format for the game. They adapt the game to their way of designing games instead of creating the game the best way possible, thinking what is BEST you can do for a star wars wargame. They don't try to get out of their comfort zone. If they had thought first how to make a great star wars game they would have started choosing a smaller scale... EVERY star wars vehicle is enormous!!! Battles are done with BIG vehicles around... and they decide to make a BIGGER scale??? They didn't do the best for the game, but the best for the easiest development possible and a quickly outcome.

Edited by Tubb

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16 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Worst case, I know of at least 3 fan made rulesets that use Star Wars miniatures, and at the worst, they work for model neutral games and RPGs.

Can you share these? I am always looking for more.

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40 minutes ago, Cusm said:

Can you share these? I am always looking for more.

Well, there's the Star Wars Chain of Command conversion available on Facebook, I've seen some talk about converting Bolt Action and the skirmish game NCO. 

I also know of a few "official" games (published rulebooks) that don't care what models you use: Star Breach and Zone Raiders come to mind. 

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5 hours ago, Squark said:

Hmm... Could you elaborate on this, a bit? I'm struggling to see what makes Legion different from other wargames in that regard. Most things can be broken down into a compsci puzzle- That's the core of game theory, after all. Now, 40k and AoS do have issues where list-building has become so centralized around force multipliers, but I haven't seen that in Legion, at least nowhere near to the same scale.

 

The command system would be more immersive to me in a game of massed combatants moving in lines and columns. Plus, I really think a good Star Wars game needs simultaneous fire combat.

Extreme abstraction is the heart of combat in Legion. Move this unit first, so that it grants that unit a free move, which can give away its free move to that unit, automatically granting Han and Chewie a dodge because they're in Range 1...  Better to simply say "+1 to shooting if you stood still" which all can understand. Legion is almost as abstract as Poker.

 

Edited by TauntaunScout

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1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Well, there's the Star Wars Chain of Command conversion available on Facebook, I've seen some talk about converting Bolt Action and the skirmish game NCO. 

I also know of a few "official" games (published rulebooks) that don't care what models you use: Star Breach and Zone Raiders come to mind. 

The Bolt Action conversion seems mostly done, alas the guy who's done it isn't a fan of points systems so unless someone else with an understanding of the ruleset steps in and provides that, as well as Republic & Separatists lists, it'll be GCW-era scenario-based only.

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11 hours ago, Tubb said:

I am sorry but as I have not liked the way they have managed the suposed Star wars WARgame, I would feel happy if these news were true. I don't want lots of people to be unhappy, but I simply don't like the way the game has been designed... still waiting for ANY troop choice that don't rely on different weathers and STILL having heroes and heroes and more heroes. So yes, I wanted an Star Wars Bolt Action or Star Wars 40k and it ended up being a Star Wars heroclix with cards... so much cards..  and card combos. No Big rulebook, no realism, just combos with abstract cards given to a hero. So yes, I'd like the license given to another company that finally makes a WARgame for Star Wars... and hoping it is not Wotc. 

Star Wars Legion has WAY more tactical nuance than 40k, or even bolt action. The available actions in 40k are: move, and attack. With some special abilities here and there, that are unit/command point specific.

Legion has: move, attack, standby, aim, dodge, rest.

40k and bolt action can also shoot each other from across the board. A miniatures game is an abstraction of warfare. Legion makes positioning more important by shortening effecting shooting ranges. This inherently requires greater tactical decision making.

The most innovative aspect of the Legion I love, is the strategy section before the game, where we veto cards to get deployment zones, weather, and missions. This simulates the strategic side of warfare, where armies will position themselves to gain favorable fighting conditions.

...

The command card aspect of the game is where a lot of the MtG style combo effects come in. It also really slows the game down, as players must think carefully about which card to use at the start of each round. It's a part of the game I wish wasn't there.

...

If FFG do lose the star wars IP I hope they make a twilight imperium minis game.

But I would like to see them flesh out the clone wars era stuff before they decide to let go of the license. 🤣

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@TauntaunScout
"Bonus combos (or choosing the right pip command cards) aren't tactics. Tactics don't seem to matter in Legion as much as Order of Operations. Legion is very much a computer programmer's, not military historian's, game. But the mainstream wargames all seem to be going the way of compsci puzzles, to sell to programmers with lots of disposable income."

Tactics are how you do a thing. The tactical options are (generally): targeting choices, movement choices, action choices.

Strategy is your overall goals. Operational refers to the level in between the Tactical and the Strategic.

So, if you wanna get real pedantic (and I do), the initial selection of your army list and the battle cards and command cards is your strategic choice; the decisions between the players to select battle cards of those available and placement of units are the operational level, and then playing the game itself is the tactical.

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11 minutes ago, Derrault said:

@TauntaunScout
"Bonus combos (or choosing the right pip command cards) aren't tactics. Tactics don't seem to matter in Legion as much as Order of Operations. Legion is very much a computer programmer's, not military historian's, game. But the mainstream wargames all seem to be going the way of compsci puzzles, to sell to programmers with lots of disposable income."

Tactics are how you do a thing. The tactical options are (generally): targeting choices, movement choices, action choices.

Strategy is your overall goals. Operational refers to the level in between the Tactical and the Strategic.

So, if you wanna get real pedantic (and I do), the initial selection of your army list and the battle cards and command cards is your strategic choice; the decisions between the players to select battle cards of those available and placement of units are the operational level, and then playing the game itself is the tactical.

Fine. I want it to be more immersive and *gasp* more of a simulation, yes, even though it has space wizards. People shouldn’t gain aim tokens through osmosis for example. There’s too much to keep track of in Legion and it doesn’t feel like the SW universe to me. The way say, a game of DBA feels exactly like reading first hand accounts of ancient warfare. 
 

Individual results may vary. 
 

I want double envelopment, interlocking fields of fire, and feigned retreats. Not abstract token-synergies. 

Edited by TauntaunScout

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