Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Boom Owl

How many games have you tried to force Final Salvo as part of your strategy?

Recommended Posts

I voted 1, but it was never my strategy until the last turn. My opponent had better positioning for the last turn to win outright. So I basically tried to run and take my chances in Final Salvo. I had a 1 die advantage. Still lost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...none?

It doesn't seem very sporting to intentionally play for time in order to force Final Salvo.  The point of the game is to push ships around and make pew pew noises, and deliberately avoiding engagement to force Final Salvo feels wrong, like abusing a legitimate rule to gain an advantage in order to turn a likely defeat into one solely decided by luck.

In my opinion, intentionally playing for Final Salvo to avoid a probable loss is telling your opponent "yes, your play and/or list were better, but I don't care and I'm going to take that away from you because I'd rather have the official result determined by luck, not the result of actual gameplay."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's mostly a patience issue for me.  I don't want to wait around for 75 minutes, I'd rather start pewpew.  Sure, get a good approach, but fight things out.

 

That said, I think most of the freakout over quad Starviper was utter BS.  Listening to interviews, seemed like folks with aces felt entitled to win against a list of generics.  F** that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Final salvo has never been part of my strategy.

You sometimes have to take it, because it's still better than a loss.

But it's not intentional, more like... the match didn't work as expected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Zero as my starting strategy, even when to my advantage.

HOWEVER

One game it became my strategy vs a 1.0 prox mine wall jank list after the walls were placed. Didn't see advantage of running over mines or sliding my list through single-file out the gaps to engage piecemeal. I had a clear advantage on dice and my opponent didn't realize how final salvo worked (until we discussed it with 10-15 minutes left) and had allowed the timer to expire with minimal shots fired. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Play the game. Which means moving and shooting and my book. I tend to get stuck in eventually, so it's not an issue usually.

But! If I was near time, and turning in to fight would be dumb, I'd clear off for sure.

 


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

That said, I think most of the freakout over quad Starviper was utter BS.  Listening to interviews, seemed like folks with aces felt entitled to win against a list of generics.  F** that.

^^^^^ This...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

trying to force final salvo is poor sportsmanship at best and cheating at worst.

sometimes you dont win. dont be a brat about it


I certainly agree that people shouldn't be brats when games don't go their way.  

I strongly disagree with the first claim, though.  The way Final Salvo is set up, for better or worse, it has an innate asymmetrical aspect to it which in many match-ups creates an Advantaged Player and Disadvantaged Player (more dice vs less dice).  This structurally places an onus on the Disadvantaged player to engage on the Advantaged Player's terms. 

X-Wing is a very rare breed of competitive game, in that it provides absolutely no incentive to either player to engage their opponent (outside of the Final Salvo Disadvantage noted above).  Most tabletop games have either "gambit zones" or "control points" or "flags to capture" or "exit zones" or "loot crates" or "sportsball+goal" or establishes an "offense team and a defense team" or has some other spatial features on the board that motivate players to move their pieces out into the board.  My experience with miniature gaming is pretty limited, but in every game I am aware of except X-Wing, there are built-in incentives for at least one player to go places on the board, thus providing incentive for engagement.  This is also true, I think, in many online games.  But not X-Wing, it just gives the players a 3x3 fishbowl and a 75 minute clock with no incentives or instructions or expectations for how or where ships should go or engagement will occur.  Leaving it entirely to the strategic and tactical decisions of each player involved.   Whether this is a bug or a feature probably varies quite a bit between players' own preferences and expectations for the game.  But could you imagine an online FPS that didn't have flags or objectives or the like?  What's to stop each player from posting up in deep cover and "corner camping"?  Why would anyone venture out into the open and go anywhere?

What this has meant for competitive X-Wing is that it's often been a game of chicken when two relatively experienced players square off,  waiting to see who breaks first and goes ahead and engages on their opponent's terms (because it's sub-optimal (probably even a play mistake) to simply grant your opponent's most ideal engagement to them).  I remember having HowlSwarm players get very visibly and verbally annoyed/frustrated/angry that I would not simply deploy my Rebel fighters directly across from their Howlswarm and simply straight-line joust right into them (which many players did do back then), as that was mathematically ensuring the Howlswarm got a free win (e.g. see Gencon 2013(14?) final of Pichelmeyer vs Naegle, where N's Rebels joust right into P's Howlswarm and vaporize in about three rounds).  In that case, the HowlSwarm player wants the opponent to simply fly right into the teeth of the swarm, where the opponent wants the Howlswarm to get drawn out on a chase, hopefully getting stretched out and separated (or damaged) as they get pulled through the obstacle field.  But if the Howlswarm wasn't willing to give chase and risk getting stretched out in the process... and the opponent wasn't willing to just go fly into the teeth of the Howlswarm ... what happens? Well, you have a game of chicken to see who will crack first (or you sit there for 75 minutes while the squads K-Turn back and forth out of range of one another).  Back then, there wasn't even Final Salvo to nudge the Swarm's opposition to engage (14 Die for the Swarm on FS), so the options become: (1) Engage on your opponent's terms, (2) wait and run out the clock, refusing engagement, or (3) try to orchestrate / try to avoid having the opponent spring in during the final round and sneak a kill for the win.  (1) usually means you lose, while (2) and (3) are horribly boring and don't feel like you're playing X-Wing.


Controlling when and where the engagement happens on the board is a huge part, if not the most essential part, of X-Wing.   But the game itself provides no incentive to either player to actually be the one who caves and engages on their opponent's terms, so when engagement plans don't line up for both players it's a game of cat-and-mouse until someone gets the engagement they want.   I think this is a less than ideal aspect of competitive X-Wing, but it's the game we've had for over five years, so we have to accept it, embrace it, and enjoy it.  The Final Salvo rule, if nothing else, sometimes creates an Advantaged/Disadvantaged player from the very outset (when attack dice are lopsided between squads), which at least then dictates who is going to have to bite the bullet (or laser) and engage on sub-optimal terms.  In these cases, at least than Advantaged Player can effectively say "okay, YOU have to come engage me on my terms, or else I win Final Salvo" and the Disadvantaged Player has to say "ugh, fine" or else risk the lopsided Final Salvo.  


I don't see how it's "poor sporstmanship" (or "cheating"?!) for one player to in essence put forward: "Ok, because I have the game's Final Salvo advantage,  you're gonna have to come engage me on my terms or else risk losing on the salvo."  What's the counter?  For the opponent to rebuke "NO, that's cheating!  YOU have to come engage ME at a disadvantage instead!"  It's rare for two squads to want the exact same engagement conditions, so somebody is gonna be engaging at an advantage or disadvantage most of the time, and Final Salvo at least tells us who that is.  Granted, it's an inadequate band-aid for a deep structural issue within X-Wing (at least regarding competitive play), but it's hard to see it as "poor sportsmanship" or "cheating."  If nothing else, it tells us who gets to play Offense and who gets to play Defense. 
 

Edited by EBerling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My X-wing world is so much different from you guys. And I'm glad I'm in mine.  :) 

I don't really play tournaments, so I guess that says it all.

But we almost always play till total annihilation, only calling time when the shop wants to close up or we want to fit in another game before people leave.

 

That being said, I can't even imagine a game going on for 75 minutes without any ships engaging. In most of my games people approach quite hard and fast the first 2 turns.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Never even heard the term Final Salvo until this thread. I generally don't play with a time limit, but the fact that people would try Final Salvo is a big reason I prefer games with objectives. Or just have the map shrink if time passes without engagement.

Really wish I had thought of something like that when I was playing against a dude who only had one ship left and just spent the whole time flying away. He wasn't even trying to go to time, he was just dragging the game out for the helluvit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/3/2020 at 9:26 AM, LagJanson said:

Zero as my starting strategy, even when to my advantage.

HOWEVER

One game it became my strategy vs a 1.0 prox mine wall jank list after the walls were placed. Didn't see advantage of running over mines or sliding my list through single-file out the gaps to engage piecemeal. I had a clear advantage on dice and my opponent didn't realize how final salvo worked (until we discussed it with 10-15 minutes left) and had allowed the timer to expire with minimal shots fired. 

That 1.0 tower defense list was the only time. Mostly because there was no good way to engage it, specially with front arc based ships, and I guess they were use to everyone coming to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...