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cdalman

R4 and a Red move while stressed

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I know this is incredibly niche, but if one tried to do a red maneuver while stressed, only to end up doing a white 2-forward, would an R4 Astromech then make that maneuver blue?  Logically, he should, but I can't help but think I've seen a ruling somewhere that says otherwise.

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don't see why it wouldn't work. it's not 100% clear, but still.

Swz12_card_r4-astromech.png

RR page three:
Capture.png

Quote

 

Q: How do abilities that alter the speed, difficulty, and/or bearing of a maneuver that a ship reveals during its Reveal Dial step and executes during its Execute Maneuver step resolve? For example, if Hera Syndulla [Attack Shuttle] is equipped with R4 Astromech and Seasoned Navigator, and also has the Damaged Engine Damage Card, what happens?

A: R4 Astromech and Damaged Engine (and other constant effects that alter the difficulty of a maneuver, such as Nien Nunb [Crew], L3-37's Programming, and Leia Organa [Rebel and Resistance, Crew]) apply only during the Execute Maneuver step and for effects that trigger after that ship executes a maneuver.

So, after Hera's dial is revealed, Hera's player may add Hera's pilot ability and Seasoned Navigator's ability to the ability queue in either order. Both abilities resolve, and if Seasoned Navigator's ability is resolved, the difficulty of the maneuver is increased during the Execute Maneuver step (i.e. the difficulty has not yet been increased when Hera's pilot ability is resolved).

Then, during the Execute Maneuver step, all abilities that alter the difficulty of the maneuver are cumulative as normal.

Note that abilities that alter a maneuver without causing the ship to select a new maneuver on its dial do not affect the ship's "revealed maneuver" as referenced by abilities such as Ric Olié's pilot ability.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, meffo said:

don't see why it wouldn't work. it's not 100% clear, but still.

I think it does. Noting that the ion maneuver specifically has a statement that prevents change. 

 

Quote

The ion maneuver is a blue [1 straight] maneuver. The bearing, difficulty, and speed of this maneuver cannot be changed unless an ability explicitly affects the ion maneuver.

 

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I disagree here. I believe it specifically states it has to be white. And I don’t think that R4 interacts with it.

I guess I don’t see the difference of a tie intercepter doing a white 2 fwd when it has natural 2 fwd blue. 

Here’s my devil’s advocate question: what does the “your” refer to in the R4 text?

Technically, like ion, a ship could perform this maneuver even if it was otherwise incapable due to it not being on the dial. 

So, is the move forced by an illegal maneuver selection “your” maneuver as referred to by R4 or is it something else like a game effect.

Also, is it a “basic maneuver”? Yes, it normally is, but again is this a special game rule?

If I were a judge, I’d rule no unless I was convinced otherwise. 

What do you think?

Also the “instead” in the RR... so what order does this enter queue compared to R4?gil10.gif?w=356&h=211

Edited by JBFancourt

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Screenshot-20200131-063214.jpg

@JBFancourt - you're saying the white two forward maneuver the ship is forced to execute as a replacement effect does not belong to the ship and is therefore not affected by R4?

since it's a replacement effect, it will resolve immediately. R4 will trigger afterwards, since it's a player's ability.

it is a special game rule, yes. it's also a basic maneuver.

please elaborate.

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To follow up on my previous statement, I do think its allowed. 

2E version 

Quote

If a stressed ship attempts to execute a red maneuver, it instead executes a white [2 straight] maneuver.

3c4OuzB.png

 

1E version

Quote

..if the ship would still be executing a red maneuver, the owner moves the ship as if it were assigned a white [straight 2] maneuver instead. The speed, bearing, and difficulty of this maneuver cannot be changed.

sut8gua.png


So basically, they switched it so an Ion maneuver cannot be altered, but the stress could, where as in 1E, the Ion maneuver Could be altered, but the 'stress maneuver replacement' could not. I imagine if they didnt want it modifiable, they would have kept the wording from 1E. 

Edited by Lyianx
added image of rulebook.

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R4 refers to maneuver you revealed on your dial. So if you reveal a white 2 straight, it lowers the difficulty during the Check Difficulty step to blue.

Revealing a red maneuver while stressed does not flip your dial to the 2 Straight. So R4 does not apply.

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3 minutes ago, Schanez said:

R4 refers to maneuver you revealed on your dial. So if you reveal a white 2 straight, it lowers the difficulty during the Check Difficulty step to blue.

Revealing a red maneuver while stressed does not flip your dial to the 2 Straight. So R4 does not apply.

That’s a loaded “your”. 
 

Anything explicitly supports this? Or just your interpretation? I do like your thought tho. 

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2 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

That’s a loaded “your”. 
 

Anything explicitly supports this? Or just your interpretation? I do like your thought tho. 

The Revealing a Red Maneuver section of RR. You cannot alter the difficulty. Cannot is explicitly stated to be above any other conditions, overriding everything. So R4 is being overridden by the rule of revealing a red maneuver while stressed.

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6 minutes ago, Schanez said:

R4 refers to maneuver you revealed on your dial. So if you reveal a white 2 straight, it lowers the difficulty during the Check Difficulty step to blue.

Revealing a red maneuver while stressed does not flip your dial to the 2 Straight. So R4 does not apply.

Except it... doesn't. It refers to "your manoeuvres" not "your revealed manoeuvres". 

Also, the effect, even since the "persistent effects are applied temporarily" FAQ, applies during the execute manoeuvre and for sake of abilities / effect that recognise what difficulty of manoeuvre has just been executed. That's a wider window that just the Check Difficulty step and would make a difference e.g. for a "While you execute a blue manoeuvre..." sort of abilities.  

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2 minutes ago, Schanez said:

The Revealing a Red Maneuver section of RR. You cannot alter the difficulty. Cannot is explicitly stated to be above any other conditions, overriding everything. So R4 is being overridden by the rule of revealing a red maneuver while stressed.

Can I get a quote? Not sure what you’re referencing. 
 

The bullet points for the red move exception say instead. So the red move isn’t being modified. It’s switched to a white 2

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9 minutes ago, Schanez said:

The Revealing a Red Maneuver section of RR. You cannot alter the difficulty. Cannot is explicitly stated to be above any other conditions, overriding everything. So R4 is being overridden by the rule of revealing a red maneuver while stressed.

The X-wing: Second Edition Rules Reference does not have a dedicated entry to "Revealing a Red Manoeuvre". Instead, the tidbits are scattered throughout entries for Activation Phase, Manoeuvre, and Stress. 

What you might be referring to is the entry quoted above in this thread by @Lyianx. Mind you, this is an outtake from the X-wing: Miniatures Game (a.k.a First Edition) Rules Reference and has no declarative power whatsoever in the context of the game's Second Edition.

Also, the priority of clauses is (in short):

1. Card-printed "cannot"

2. Card-printed "may" / "can"

3. Rules-printed "cannot"

4. Rules-printed "may" / "can"

Edited by Ryfterek

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Just checked RR. It says " After a stressed ship reveals a red maneuver, abilities that change the maneuver can be used. After resolving these abilities, if the ship would still execute a red maneuver, it instead executes a white [2 󲁞] maneuver." on page 18 under Stress. As I understand it, anything altering difficulty step would happen before the forced decision to perform a White 2 Straight.

Given I might be wrong. It is just how I understand this paragraph.

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41 minutes ago, Schanez said:

Just checked RR. It says " After a stressed ship reveals a red maneuver, abilities that change the maneuver can be used. After resolving these abilities, if the ship would still execute a red maneuver, it instead executes a white [2 󲁞] maneuver." on page 18 under Stress. As I understand it, anything altering difficulty step would happen before the forced decision to perform a White 2 Straight.

Given I might be wrong. It is just how I understand this paragraph.

The forced execution of the 2 straight when stressed is a non-player ability effect so is applied before the FAQ'd timing of R4 Astromech and other player abilities that affect the difficulty of a maneuver while it is executed. You can thank R4+ Cova for that...

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34 minutes ago, Rettere said:

So, Cova with Leia and R4 has a stress. Dials a red backup maneuver. Then when it reveals its dial it can choose to either use Leia and back up, or not use Leia and go forward, clear stress, take action, and still trigger the pilot ability? Nice.

Disgustingly yes...

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1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

Disgustingly yes...

eh, im ok with this. The only way you are pulling this off is if you know a 2 straight will get you where you want to be to take advantage of it. That makes it pretty predictable if thats what you are trying to do.

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1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

eh, im ok with this. The only way you are pulling this off is if you know a 2 straight will get you where you want to be to take advantage of it. That makes it pretty predictable if thats what you are trying to do.

It also applies to her 4 straight and 3 banks.

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3 hours ago, Lyianx said:

The forced maneuver from being stressed is a 2 straight..

 

2 hours ago, Rettere said:

Yes but you could dial in a 4 straight (Normally red), then change to a blue 2 straight by choosing not to use Leia.

I think Rettere's point is that with this combo Cova at init 4 can choose to either use Leia on a dialed red (like a reverse bank) to turn it white and keep the one stress, or if that is not advantageous she can opt not to use Leia and gets to do a straight 2 instead which is (probably) turned blue by R4 Astro to clear that stress which just forced the maneuver.

That is a lot of tactical flexibility considering the potential difference in facing and location between those two maneuvers. Then on top of that she still gets the extra die from her ability either way!

Edited by nitrobenz

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Am I following along correctly?

They didn't properly sort out and word the change a maneuver and change the difficulty of a maneuver effects at the outset of 2nd Edition.

Then they introduced things that care about a "revealed maneuver" in the context of not having properly sorted out change a maneuver effects and change the difficulty of a maneuver effects.

Then they tried to break the entire thing over a ruling utterly contrary to the general player-base having sort of a handle on the implementing the improperly worded effects thus shattering our understanding. 

Now it seems they've fixed it enough that we've sort of got an understanding again while still letting stuff through the cracks. 

Do I have that right? 

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10 hours ago, Lyianx said:

eh, im ok with this. The only way you are pulling this off is if you know a 2 straight will get you where you want to be to take advantage of it. That makes it pretty predictable if thats what you are trying to do.

But isn't our forgiveness part of the thing that makes the messes with these things? 

Back when MtG came out it wasn't thought to be a problem that Ancestral Recall was way to good with three cards for one mana. It was rare and you weren't supposed to have more than one of them or any at all in a deck. And they ended up being very wrong about that. I have noticed something of a tendency to do similar with rules in X-wing.

It is an edge case that isn't that big a deal so why "care" or worry to much about what causes it. "Fly Casual" right? But it is just leaving the players to deal with designer sloppiness. Then they have to deal with getting spammed about how something does or does not work. Because somebody is always going to try and break it. But if feels like the designers use "someone is going to start an argument" as an excuse to be sloppy and thus I think we get even more arguments because there is so much more room to twist the rules into pretzels. 

(Still frustrated at the thought that having not fixed these change of maneuver effects at the outset is why the VCX doesn't seem to be where I'd like it.) 

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