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Strict Orders out of play

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On 1/26/2020 at 5:43 AM, Staelwulf said:

If we continue this thread like this, it will all come down to a "rules as intended" vs. "rules as written" discussion. 😉

I don't want to be the guy that says "I told you so".

But...I told you so!

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15 minutes ago, Staelwulf said:

I don't want to be the guy that says "I told you so".

But...I told you so!

To be fair, that arguably describes the majority of the rules section of any wargaming forum. Second possibly only to questions that are answered by simply reading the rules.

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Pg 70 - Upgrade Cards
Upgrade cards represent elements like gear, weapons, and additional troopers that enhance units.

Okay to clarify where I see these rules

Upgrade cards enhance units. Strict orders enhances orders from either commander of you have two. 

Pg 31 - Defeated
When a miniature is defeated, it is removed from the battlefield and cannot be used for the remainder of the game.

Pg 70 - Unit

A unit is a miniature or collection of minis that functions as a
single fighting group.

 

Neither of the above make mention of upgrade cards in any way. As a judge in Law or in a game like MtG the conclusion you make is your interpretation of the rules, not the rules themselves,  and while I agree with your interpretation, as an MtG judge where everything is taken as written with no room for grey areas I would have had to rule upgrades stay in the table after units do if someone came up to me in a competition, because no where in the rules is there anything to say Strict Orders can not continue. (Assuming there isn't a rule I missed somewhere that details it)

Most upgrades wouldn't apply since weapon/grenade upgrades are applied to attacks made by the unit, which is no longer there.  , Strict Orders however does not have any such wording, and furthermore if you follow your conclusion strict orders shouldn't apply to orders given but only to orders given by that commander which is something known not to be true as the wording allows other commanders , or indeed other units that give out orders including for example Rebel Veterans/Shores /b1 droids daisy chaining, HQ uplink , etc

Edit again I'm not saying that this is right, but that the rules aren't clear on it so the OPs interpretation could be interpreted correct, as much as I myself would disagree

Edited by syrath

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The interpretion that you are differing on is that an upgrade enhances only the unit it is placed on, giving it a special rule called "Strict Orders" which has the text of the card. It is not an upgrade placed on each unit in your army.

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20 minutes ago, syrath said:

Neither of the above make mention of upgrade cards in any way.

They don't need to directly mention upgrade cards because:

20 minutes ago, syrath said:

Upgrade cards enhance units.

^This is the line that connects everything together.

Also, regarding this:

23 minutes ago, syrath said:

Upgrade cards enhance units. Strict orders enhances orders from either commander of you have two. 

No. Strict Orders is an upgrade card. Upgrade Cards enhance Units. I think you may be over complicating that by also taking the card's effect into consideration. The effect it provides is coming from the unit that equips it. Once that unit is gone, there is nothing left to provide the effect. (Unless there's a card whose text explicitly states that it persists even after the unit is defeated.)

35 minutes ago, syrath said:

the conclusion you make is your interpretation of the rules, not the rules themselves

Yes, literally everything is an interpretation. This doesn't get us anywhere... Epistemology has always been my least favorite subset of philosophy 😁.

 

27 minutes ago, syrath said:

I would have had to rule upgrades stay in the table after units do if someone came up to me in a competition

And you'd be incorrect to do so for the reasons previously outlined. There is nothing in the rulebook to support allowing upgrade cards of defeated units to continue their effects. On the other hand, there are passages to support (even if they require connecting a few dots) that the effects do not continue.

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14 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

They don't need to directly mention upgrade cards because:

^This is the line that connects everything together.

Also, regarding this:

No. Strict Orders is an upgrade card. Upgrade Cards enhance Units. I think you may be over complicating that by also taking the card's effect into consideration. The effect it provides is coming from the unit that equips it. Once that unit is gone, there is nothing left to provide the effect. (Unless there's a card whose text explicitly states that it persists even after the unit is defeated.)

Yes, literally everything is an interpretation. This doesn't get us anywhere... Epistemology has always been my least favorite subset of philosophy 😁.

 

And you'd be incorrect to do so for the reasons previously outlined. There is nothing in the rulebook to support allowing upgrade cards of defeated units to continue their effects. On the other hand, there are passages to support (even if they require connecting a few dots) that the effects do not continue.

And I'd agree, but as an MtG judge where the wording is taken very literally so that there is no bias by interpretation , and given the rules as written I would have to say there is no rule that says when the unit is off the board that the upgrade (which was available for other units to use prior to the commanders defeat) , could not be used by other units after. There is no rule on it one way or the other (even wording as simple as "When a unit is defeated the unit and associated upgrade cards are removed from the game", which is much clearer than what is currently in the rulebook, which only states 

When a miniature is defeated, it is removed from the battlefield and cannot be used for the remainder of the game

note that this doesn't even reference units it just references a miniature, so unit cards, and upgrades are not mentioned. I do have a thought that I'm going to check out though.

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12 minutes ago, syrath said:

And I'd agree, but as an MtG judge where the wording is taken very literally so that there is no bias by interpretation , and given the rules as written I would have to say there is no rule that says when the unit is off the board that the upgrade (which was available for other units to use prior to the commanders defeat) , could not be used by other units after. There is no rule on it one way or the other (even wording as simple as "When a unit is defeated the unit and associated upgrade cards are removed from the game", which is much clearer than what is currently in the rulebook, which only states 

When a miniature is defeated, it is removed from the battlefield and cannot be used for the remainder of the game

note that this doesn't even reference units it just references a miniature, so unit cards, and upgrades are not mentioned. I do have a thought that I'm going to check out though.

If you have to rule it that strictly, then the gear or training upgrade cards for example doesn't work at all. Where in the rules says that a unit can use the effects of those type of upgrade cards it has equipped? At least I cannot find that rule.

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5 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

If you have to rule it that strictly, then the gear or training upgrade cards for example doesn't work at all. Where in the rules says that a unit can use the effects of those type of upgrade cards it has equipped? At least I cannot find that rule.

Command are actually also in that list. Only weapon, trooper, and action upgrades are explained that I can see.

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12 hours ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

If you have to rule it that strictly, then the gear or training upgrade cards for example doesn't work at all. Where in the rules says that a unit can use the effects of those type of upgrade cards it has equipped? At least I cannot find that rule.

Those cards have wordings that mean they can only be used by that unit, as far as I can see, the command cards have a couple of examples where the wording allows them to be used by other commanders , which is a major difference to the majority of upgrades, Strict Orders is one of them. I still think the card should be removed with the unit, I just cannot prove there is a rule to back it up

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12 hours ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

If you have to rule it that strictly, then the gear or training upgrade cards for example doesn't work at all. Where in the rules says that a unit can use the effects of those type of upgrade cards it has equipped? At least I cannot find that rule.

Page 5 covers upagrades, but the big issue that leads to this problem is that the only thing that gets removed from the game when a mini is defeated is the mini itself the cards remain, most cards this isn't s n issue since they apply only to that unit but strict orders had been confirmed as working regardless of the source of that order. So it works like an army wide upgrade, which is unlike most of the other cards. So what actually happens to unit cards and upgrades when a unit is defeated, this is never explained in the rules.

 

4 minutes ago, Dalae said:

I am worried, can't find any rule that allows players to breath during the game.

How is that relevant to the game, show me a rule that says that the card is removed upon unit defeat , more this card has wording that allows it to be used by other units, which is key to this discussion, if the card remains "active" after the unit defeat then how doesn't it continue to work. As a judge at a tournament is have to, unwillingly, side with this train of thought because theirs nothing in the rules to stop it, if I were a judge. Also there is nothing in the rules to say you cannot breath either.

Edited by syrath

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4 hours ago, syrath said:

Page 5 covers upagrades, but the big issue that leads to this problem is that the only thing that gets removed from the game when a mini is defeated is the mini itself the cards remain, most cards this isn't s n issue since they apply only to that unit but strict orders had been confirmed as working regardless of the source of that order. So it works like an army wide upgrade, which is unlike most of the other cards. So what actually happens to unit cards and upgrades when a unit is defeated, this is never explained in the rules.

No, page 5, like page 70 only say which upgrades a unit can equip, but it never says that a unit can use the effect written on a command upgrade for example, it only mentions how all the weapons upgrades and the personnel and heavy works. So if we take the rule as written strictly, like not taking this "Upgrade cards represent elements like gear, weapons, and additional troopers that enhance units" as meaning that enhancing the unit lets them use those upgrade effects, also implying that if you lose the unit, it cannot use that upgrade that enhanced it, then you can equip a command upgrade card like Strict Orders but not use it's effect, because there is no written rule allowing you to do that.

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Okay I've dropped a rules question, not that I expect an answer, just for info the wording was as follows

In the rules there is nothing to say what happens with upgrade and unit cards when a unit is defeated. The reason I point this out is that unlike most upgrade cards the upgrade card "Strict Orders" applies to any orders given out by any commander or unit, since it's wording states that when a unit activates with a face up order token, where the order token came from is irrelevant.

To get to the point here, common sense dictates that when the commander with this upgrade is defeated, Strict Orders is unavailable, however , no where in the rules does it say it is removed, only the mini is removed upon defeat, for most upgrades this is irrelevant since the upgrade applies to that unit and that unit alone. So getting to my question, does Strict Orders stop working and if so when, is it immediately upon the commanders defeat or the turn after their defeat (because the orders were already given out) or does it still work till the end of the game. Can you also point me to the rule that makes this clear.

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21 minutes ago, syrath said:

Just to advise, for about he fourth time running I get no answer as yet from FFG and to confirm I am checking the junk folder.

Weird, I got an answer from a rules question I asked just the other day. Try asking a much shorter, simpliar question since Alex Davy is reading the questions in his spare time, such as "When a miniature with the Strict Orders upgrade is removed from play, do the effects of Strict Orders end?"

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It is true that the rules should be more clear and direct in that regard. We seem to be clinging desperately to the "upgrades enhance units" quote so that we can produce a common sense interpretation based on what's written in the rulebook. I guess it's good enough a fig leaf but that particular sentence was almost certainly not meant to clarify the issue discussed and it sounds much weaker than it should be as a result.

The rulebook should clearly state that if a unit is defeated, all it's upgrade cards are no longer in play and cannot be used. It's so obvious that it's hard to believe it's not there. And don't tell me it doesn't have to be there because you can arrive at that conclusion using current rules. If you have to go back and forth between multiple entries in a rulebook in order to formulate a semi-decent interpretation concerning such a fundamental matter, it means the rules are lacking. You shouldn't have to formulate anything. It should be written there in plain text.

Edited by Lightrock

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3 hours ago, Lightrock said:

It is true that the rules should be more clear and direct in that regard. We seem to be clinging desperately to the "upgrades enhance units" quote so that we can produce a common sense interpretation based on what's written in the rulebook. I guess it's good enough a fig leaf but that particular sentence was almost certainly not meant to clarify the issue discussed and it sounds much weaker than it should be as a result.

 

The simple problem with Strict Orders though is that it enhances the yourr whole army since any unit given an order when it activates gets benefit from it irrespective of where they are on the battlefield and where that order came from so the quote upgrades enhance units doesn't even apply on a basic level

Edited by syrath

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1 hour ago, syrath said:

The simple problem with Strict Orders though is that it enhances the yourr whole army since any unit given an order when it activates gets benefit from it irrespective of where they are on the battlefield and where that order came from so the quote upgrades enhance units doesn't even apply on a basic level

I make up some wild bs when I think I have found a loophole, but how is this even a question? Strict orders is on Veers. Veers is ded. The card is removed from the game with the model. they are both set off the table and because veers is not on the table, no unit is eligible for the free suppression removal. The effect does not matter when it is not in the game. Nothing on it says "for the rest of the game" or "even while out of play". I think this one is a pretty easy no, SO is gone when the unit is gone. Cards off the table are out of the game. Even set aside cards for RR. 

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1 hour ago, Cleto0 said:

I make up some wild bs when I think I have found a loophole, but how is this even a question? Strict orders is on Veers. Veers is ded. The card is removed from the game with the model. they are both set off the table and because veers is not on the table, no unit is eligible for the free suppression removal. The effect does not matter when it is not in the game. Nothing on it says "for the rest of the game" or "even while out of play". I think this one is a pretty easy no, SO is gone when the unit is gone. Cards off the table are out of the game. Even set aside cards for RR.

What many don't seem to realise is im totally with you , and agree this is also how I play it, however the rules say the mini leaves the table , for most upgrades this means the upgrade stops working since those upgrades only affect that unit, strict orders does not and there is a loophole that IMO should be cleared up, or they should clarify if Strict Orders still works after the mini is removed. Currently the rules do not cover what happens. Hence it's left to interpretation, and rulrs as written the upgrades and cards are not removed when the unit is defeated only the mini is

Edited by syrath

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