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Derenga

Fifth Brother + Mag Pulse Warheads - potential 2 crits?

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The Mag Pulse Warheads card reads: "If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1  crit damage and gains 1 deplete and 1 jam token. Then cancel all hit/crit results" . The Fifth Brother (pilot) ability reads: "While you perform an attack, after the Neutralize Results step, if the attack hit, you may spend 2 force to add 1 crit result". Assuming the the missile attack hits is it possible for me to trigger as first Warheads' ability (the defender suffers 1  crit damage and gains 1 deplete and 1 jam token and then I am cancelling all remaining results) and then to trigger Fifth Brother ability and add additional crit? Or the Fifth Brother ability should be triggered as first and thus I am just wasting my force charges.

Edited by Derenga

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Swz66_fifth-brother.pngSwz62_mag-pulse-warheads.png


strange. i'm actually going with yes, this works. whether the attack hits is decided at the end of the neutralize result step. fifth brother adds his result after that. since the neutralize result step is already passed, the crit added by him cannot be cancelled by defense dice.


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...it's kind of awkward, but I tend to agree with @meffo.  Neutralize Results would have already happened.  Both abilities have the conditional statement, "if the attack hits" (or grammatically similar).  Mag-Pulse would, by definition, have to happen either DURING the end of step 4, or BETWEEN steps 4 and 5, while 5th Bro by definition happens between steps 4 and 5.  To that end, one of only two situations is true, both of which end in your favor:

  1. Mag-Pulse Warheads triggers during the end of Step 4, applying its effects (1 crit damage, deplete + jam), then cancelling all damage results.  AFTER Step 4, Fifth Brother spends force to add a crit damage.  Then in Step 5, the remaining crit damage is suffered.
  2. After step 4 is completed, both Mag-Pulse Warheads and Fifth Brother's effects may trigger.  Since you are allowed to resolve them in the order of your choice, apply the missile damage & tokens, then add 1 crit damage back to the dice pool, where it will be suffered in Step 5.

This all works, of course, because there are no evade results in the damage pool - the attack already is determined as hitting.

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I interpret that the Mag-Pulse Warheads card is telling you how to do the Deal Damage step (Rules Ref pg 6).  Mag-Pulse says how the defender suffers damage (which happens during the deal damage step).  The Mag-Pulse Warheads card has instructions for an alternate Deal Damage step.  Also, Fifth bother's affect adds damage after the Neutralize Results step.  According to the Timing rule (pg 19) “after” means immediately after, which means Fifth Brother’s affect resolves as an interrupt right after the Neutralize Results step ends and before the Deal Damage step starts.

e.g. Fifth Bother would not add a second critical hit to the damage as he adds a critical damage result, which would then be canceled by the effects of Mag-Pulse Warhead.

What do you think?  Good question, worth thinking about before you see it on the table or make a build with this possibility!

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48 minutes ago, Tharcas said:

I interpret that the Mag-Pulse Warheads card is telling you how to do the Deal Damage step (Rules Ref pg 6).  Mag-Pulse says how the defender suffers damage (which happens during the deal damage step).  The Mag-Pulse Warheads card has instructions for an alternate Deal Damage step.  Also, Fifth bother's affect adds damage after the Neutralize Results step.  According to the Timing rule (pg 19) “after” means immediately after, which means Fifth Brother’s affect resolves as an interrupt right after the Neutralize Results step ends and before the Deal Damage step starts.

e.g. Fifth Bother would not add a second critical hit to the damage as he adds a critical damage result, which would then be canceled by the effects of Mag-Pulse Warhead.

What do you think?  Good question, worth thinking about before you see it on the table or make a build with this possibility!

I think that adjudicating how Mag-Pulse works, ultimately falls under the category of "do what the card says to do, don't do what the card doesn't say to do."  Basically, don't read too much into the effects of the card, beyond what the card actually says.  Many abilities in the game read, "If [something happens], [do stuff]."  When the game uses that language, the [do stuff] clause is, almost without fail, handled immediately, not "saved for a later step."

Fifth Brother, we agree, happens after Step 4: Neutralize Results has fully completed, and before Step 5: Deal Damage has started.  The dispute comes down to, when do we apply the damage effect of Mag-Pulse Warheads... as soon as the requirements are met (if the attack hits), or, if the requirements are met, at some appropriate step later.  In this specific case, the Mag-Pulse Warheads instructs the defender to suffer damage, receive a pair of tokens, then cancel all remaining hits and crits... my interpretation, following game precedent, is that this happens as soon as you confirm that the attack "hits."  That happens, of course, at the end of Step 4.  There's no statement anything happening during the Deal Damage step; the Mag-Pulse effects happen then and there.  You then proceed to resolve Fifth Brother's abilities, then go on to the deal damage step, during which, the newly-added critical damage result is applied.

 

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23 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

my interpretation, following game precedent, is that this happens as soon as you confirm that the attack "hits."  That happens, of course, at the end of Step 4. 

It's worth noting for @Tharcas point that there at two variations of "attack hits" language used on different cards: 

"After the attack hits..." Is used by Conc Missiles, Plasma Torps, and Diamond Boron. This language 100% means you resolve that effect immediately, which is before the next step. It's also worth noting that in Conc and Plasma cases if you had the option of waiting until the damage step to resolve the effect it could give a very different outcome: Conc would be more useful against undamaged ships (wait until after new damage is dealt to expose one) while Plasma would be useless against a ship where the attack would finish off the shields anyways. In the case of DBM it has no difference whether that extra damage goes first or second (beyond stacking random chances of an extra critical).

"If the attack hits..." Is used by Tractor Beam, Jamming Beam, all standard ion weapons, Ion Battery, Turbolaser battery and the new Mag-pulse. In all of these cases I don't think it makes a difference (aside from the new 5bro interaction) whether the effect is applied at the end of Neutralize Results vs during Deal Damage step.

As @emeraldbeacon said above it is precedent that both of these groups are treated as the same timing by the general community, but I don't think there has ever been a reason not to before!

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A huge and very notable difference between Mag-pulse and all the preexisting 'If the attack hits' weapons is that every other one is a substitution effect that says, "inflict tokens instead of damage" and does not cancel dice results, Mag-pulse meanwhile says, "apply the effect, then cancel results." With that text in mind it could actually be argued that all those other abilities are in fact meant to take place during the deal damage step as they happen instead of damage. If you apply the text of Mag-pulse during Deal damage though it should take place after the standard deal damage effect as per the Ability Queue rule of 'game effects first' which would be nuts over powered to deal a full attack of damage and then apply this over the top effect and then the 'cancel results' part of Mag-pulse wouldn't do anything because you already cancelled the results as you were dealing damage!

It seems to me like somebody missed their mark and either used the old 1e templating or it should have been 'after the attack hits' like Conc Missiles.

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